The Dark Knight Intensity of Fight sequences in TDK!

[deemar325]

Apparently I watched a different movie and documentary than everyone else because what I saw was his arms usually start from the raised elbow hands up by the ears position before he strikes. I never said he grabs his ears, simply that they are up by his ears. I've studied martial arts for years and if you're going to put your elbows up, and spread apart, you better do it well enough to not get hit so don't try to tell me that my way of thinking is crap, it's real. I know Batman is supposed to be the best but the technique leaves a big question in my mind. In the documentary of KFM your center line is wide open which is fine if you're winning but not so much if you're not. I get the whole intercept concept, it's a good practice but nothing works the same way all the time. I understand that KFM is new and makes Batman look like he invented it but there is no reason why it has to be the only thing he does. It would be nice to see other things as well. I have no intention on seeing Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, or any other martial art movie hero like people keep mentioning but a traditional kick, punch, or throw would vary this up enough. Heck, while I was training I altererd a very traditional style technique and ended up ending the move with a right cross. My point is a little of everything is good especially if Batman is supposed to have a little of everything. I'll accept KFM if I can see it more on screen, my arguments will be considerably less if I can see some action and don't need to put the dvd on slow motion to see it. Show me the fight scene well enough and I'll stop complaining about techniques because I'll be too busy enjoying the fighting that Batman should be known for.

Guy you read my mind. They just need to pull the damn camera back so I can see some kind of fighting not just blurs of black rubber and nylon cape. I think Blade (especially the first one) so far has the best overall fight choreography in a superhero movie. I mean really Superman Returns the chump lifted stuff and got his ass kicked by Kevin Spacey, the X-Men as much as I dig them rely to much on wires and really Hugh Jackman running around as low to the ground as he can screaming and slashing. Spider-man and Hulk was mostly CGI so Blade pretty much the cream of the crop for fight scenes where the actual lead actor has to perform these moves, you think Tobey Maguire was in a 10th of the fights in the Spidey movie? Batman should be better than Blade in the fights at least equal it.

 

[JosephMaximus]

The cinematography was on purpose in BB... Nolan said that he wanted the Batman scenes to be as much from the perspective of the bad guys as possible. Yes, it's aggravating as a fan watching the movie but those scenes make add a certain level of validity to the Batman's persona, fear, and mythological pretense.

 

[deemar325]

Well now it's the second movie and we know what the badguys perspective is, so screw them and let's pull back the damn camera. Nolan can alternate if he wants from crap**** super tight camera angles to actual comprehensive fights that the audience can see imagine that, a fan who wants to actually see bats kick-butt.

 

[gqxsensazn]

The argument I have is criticism of KFM, and the camera angles not how skilled Batman is. If Batman knows how to expertly utilize it, I have no problem with that. But its the style itself I have a problem with. Those who are martial artists on this board KNOW that KFM is a system that leaves center wide open. Why is this such a big turn off for martial artists? Because everyone, no matter what style they learned, is told the most important thing it to protect your center. When people are taught to fight, they're arms are always out in front of them. Its defense from getting attacked and its always near the center of the body. Even Bruce Lee understood how important it was. KFM is a great movie style, don't get me wrong, but I just don't think it would work in real life.

As for editing, it just bothers me how much I DIDN'T see in Batman's fighting. I know Nolan filmed it on purpose as I said in my first post, but as a martial artist, and fight choreographer, I was not impressed. I love Batman because he's a martial artist so I want to see him fight. I don't want blurry images of legs and arms flailing. I can accept him fighting street but I want to SEE it. The best edited fight to me was when Ducard and Bruce fought on the frozen lake. You saw what they were doing, you could connect the moves to each other. The other scenes were just...bleh.

Oh and the name is Jet LI. I hate it people screw up his name.

 

[MacLeod]

The argument I have is criticism of KFM, and the camera angles not how skilled Batman is. If Batman knows how to expertly utilize it, I have no problem with that. But its the style itself I have a problem with. Those who are martial artists on this board KNOW that KFM is a system that leaves center wide open. Why is this such a big turn off for martial artists? Because everyone, no matter what style they learned, is told the most important thing it to protect your center. When people are taught to fight, they're arms are always out in front of them. Its defense from getting attacked and its always near the center of the body. Even Bruce Lee understood how important it was. KFM is a great movie style, don't get me wrong, but I just don't think it would work in real life.

As for editing, it just bothers me how much I DIDN'T see in Batman's fighting. I know Nolan filmed it on purpose as I said in my first post, but as a martial artist, and fight choreographer, I was not impressed. I love Batman because he's a martial artist so I want to see him fight. I don't want blurry images of legs and arms flailing. I can accept him fighting street but I want to SEE it. The best edited fight to me was when Ducard and Bruce fought on the frozen lake. You saw what they were doing, you could connect the moves to each other. The other scenes were just...bleh.

Oh and the name is Jet LI. I hate it people screw up his name.

I like intelligent people. Well put, great post. Would I like to learn KFM, sure. Would it be useful to integrate into what I already know, yes. Would I rely on it alone or make my favorite comic/superhoro/movie person do it, no. It's all about stance and protecting yourself, in this sense your center line. I remember watching the documentary and it seemed like stomping the floor while your hands were up by your ears occured on every technique. It may sound great by making a big bang when you pretend to hit someone but I question it's validity all the time. Some techniques will work sometimes, but the same one that they promote as the KFM way is a little questionable.

 

[MacLeod]

Uhh, no he doesn't. I posted a gif of an entire fight sequence and not once is he in that raised elbow stance. I mean, good lord, way to bury your head in the sand.



And ten thousand bucks says someone like Batman can do it 'well enough' to not get hit. So yes, your way of thinking is crap.



And since when does anyone in Gotham, save for the bare few villains like Bane or Ra's al Ghul pose a big enough challenge for Batman to not be winning? Did you even read my previous post? Aside from his supervillains rogue gallery, there are a bare few, if any who can handle the caliber of skills Batman has. And it's obvious that in every regular case scenario Batman will always be "winning" not only because he's faster, more skilled, more agile, has the element of surprise on his side, uses misdirection, projectile weapons and other assorted creative fighting techniques, but also that just about regular Gotham scum will be too ****ing scared and jittery to properly compose himself enough to land a direct hit on him, even with a gun, let alone with his hands.



The same can be said for defense. That is the reason why Bruce Lee pissed on traditional martial arts - because they're generally worth jack **** in unpredictable situations. And is exactly why improvisational styles like KFM, JKD, boxing or even street fighting are more appropriate for Batman.



Like I said, I don't want Batman pulling moves from a recognizable style. It just cheapens the character and if they don't pull it right, makes him look like some kung-fu star wannabe.



Umm, he pulled off 'traditional' punches, kicks and throws in Begins. It's another matter that you couldn't see them bright as day because of the quick cuts, but you can see a good number of 'traditional' moves in the Ra's fight especially - like when he kick Ra's after snapping his blade in two, or when he misses a backhand punch that Ra's ducks under. I mean, damn, if you've seen the film as many times on DVD as one would expect a Batman fan to, you'd have remembered every single frame by now.



Then your problem is with the editing and not the style. What're you doing arguing in this thread, chuck?

I love how well you can discuss your points of view without having to name call or belittle someone just to prove your point. That was sarcasim by the way because it's sad to see that one can't express his opinion, an opinion based on a lot of fact and an opinion that agrees with many other people that post on this thread, without having someone try and denounce those theories by making his arguement sound like nothing more than than a play ground, "I told you so," routine. Using words like "crap," "Uhh," and the ever forgettable, "***" only shows your level of thinking which is sad to say the least. Being rude and degrading doesn't make me believe you more, it actually makes me stay true to what I hold as my opinion because it was obvious to me that the person refuting my opinions really has no concept of how to hold a conversation let alone a forum debate. Personally, I would agree to disagree with you, or at the very least try to prove my point by stating facts and examples not insults and degrading comments. To believe something else is one thing, to mandate that your way is correct and somone else is wrong is something rather different. Now, you'll probably come back and try to defend yourself in the same manner in which you try to denounce my ideas, rude, unfriendly, and rather un-intelligent like but I would hope that by pointing this out to you maybe we can all learn something.

As for what we should be here for, I did state, and do believe, that the editing is the cause for many, if not all, of the problems here.

 

[MacLeod]

Guy you read my mind. They just need to pull the damn camera back so I can see some kind of fighting not just blurs of black rubber and nylon cape. I think Blade (especially the first one) so far has the best overall fight choreography in a superhero movie. I mean really Superman Returns the chump lifted stuff and got his ass kicked by Kevin Spacey, the X-Men as much as I dig them rely to much on wires and really Hugh Jackman running around as low to the ground as he can screaming and slashing. Spider-man and Hulk was mostly CGI so Blade pretty much the cream of the crop for fight scenes where the actual lead actor has to perform these moves, you think Tobey Maguire was in a 10th of the fights in the Spidey movie? Batman should be better than Blade in the fights at least equal it.

I agree with you, as it was Blade had a long trench coat on so we were almost there. The actor or the martial art style used is only half as important as the way it's filmed. How many movies are out there were the lead actor or actress knew nothing about fighting but they were trained and it was filmed well. That's all I'm asking for here. It seems that Bale can pull off the fighting to make it look decent now all I want is for the camera to be back enough to see Bale, or the stunt Batman, do his thing.

 

[gqxsensazn]

Bale is more than capable of pulling off a movie fight. Look at the way he moved in Equilibrium. He was absolutely amazing in it. I agree a Batman movie should not look a martial art movie directed by Yuen Woo Ping or Corey Yuen, it would look out of place (Although when I was waiting for Batman Begins to show, I was kind of hoping for it but anyway). But I thought it should be done the way Casino Royale's fight scenes were filmed. It was up close but you saw how brutal and violent it was. I thought it would fit really well in a Batman film.

I also have to agree with the Blade movies being the best comic book fights. My favorite was Blade II when Donnie Yen was the fight choreographer. It had the familiar HK feeling but a little grittier which I felt fit the character. Remember the scene with Blade fighting the soliders with the electric batons?

 

[MacLeod]

Bale is more than capable of pulling off a movie fight. Look at the way he moved in Equilibrium. He was absolutely amazing in it. I agree a Batman movie should not look a martial art movie directed by Yuen Woo Ping or Corey Yuen, it would look out of place (Although when I was waiting for Batman Begins to show, I was kind of hoping for it but anyway). But I thought it should be done the way Casino Royale's fight scenes were filmed. It was up close but you saw how brutal and violent it was. I thought it would fit really well in a Batman film.

I also have to agree with the Blade movies being the best comic book fights. My favorite was Blade II when Donnie Yen was the fight choreographer. It had the familiar HK feeling but a little grittier which I felt fit the character. Remember the scene with Blade fighting the soliders with the electric batons?

I agree, Blade may be the fighting style we need for the Batman movies. It's traditional yet flashy enough, fast but not too fast to not see anything, and the techniques that were used are ones that everyone is used to seeing which makes it a little more believable and less controversial.

 

[sasquatchs]

Still pretty fancy, Blade enjoys it all too much, mocking everyone for their poor skills. There's alot of unnecessary showmanship to his stuff

 

[The Only Woj]

I used to have that .gif in a larger resolution and I've been looking for it for months!! If anyone has any good links let me know!! lol

has anyone cut together the Ra's/Batman train sequence into a single clip?

 

[gqxsensazn]

Umm...Blade was a little stylized and was headed in the HK direction. Actually, I still would like to see Batman do the takedowns and disarming techniques. A little fancy but nothing over the top.

 

[MacLeod]

I won't care if he does a traditional Karate chop for every technique as long as I can see it.

 

[gqxsensazn]

First thing that comes to my mind when I read your post, MacLeod

"Judo Chop!"

 

[MacLeod]

First thing that comes to my mind when I read your post, MacLeod

"Judo Chop!"

I thought the same thing myself when I was writing it but since martial arts have been mentioned so much in this thread I didn't want to say, "Judo Chop." Judo doesn't really have any striking techniques so it would have been a little contridictory.

I just want to see the action, I don't think that is a lot to ask for.

 

[sasquatchs]

has anyone cut together the Ra's/Batman train sequence into a single clip?

Here ya go, good way to learn Premiere. The whole fight is only 40 seconds

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1289392836319252893

German audio, oops. German "Nice ride guy" is comical

 

[chintai80]

Here ya go, good way to learn Premiere. The whole fight is only 40 seconds

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3250396971168031918

lol, thanks. its pretty damn short with all the gordon/tumbler scenes taken out.

 

[gqxsensazn]

Yeah, but it was just funny that it popped in my head. No one really says Karate chop anymore. It sounds really dumb.

But I want to see the action too.

 

[Bond]

Damn, that train sequence seems much more intense like that.

 

[Voyeur]

I know a lot of people wanted the filmakers to pull the camera back in BB to see Batman kicking but in more detail. But not only was the style meant to create a certain claustrophobic effect, but I think they kinda had to do it for the Batsuit's sake. I saw a few pics of the scene where Batman is fighting all those guys on the dock and it was from a distance. I hate to say it but he looked kinda funny (especially the shot from behind Batman) moving around with that huge neckpiece/cowl. But moving around in the new suit should look a bit cooler.

 

[MacLeod]

I know a lot of people wanted the filmakers to pull the camera back in BB to see Batman kicking but in more detail. But not only was the style meant to create a certain claustrophobic effect, but I think they kinda had to do it for the Batsuit's sake. I saw a few pics of the scene where Batman is fighting all those guys on the dock and it was from a distance. I hate to say it but he looked kinda funny (especially the shot from behind Batman) moving around with that huge neckpiece/cowl. But moving around in the new suit should look a bit cooler.

I can understand that moving in that suit, or any suit, would be difficult and less than real. However, all the other movies, the good ones and bad ones, had worse suits and I would rather watch those actions scenes than the ones in Begins. It was filmed and edited poorly, I don't care if it's supposed to give you a sense of frenzy, I want to see the fighting. If the suit is difficult to move in make the fight sequences better and able to have the suit do things, anything is capable in a movie.

 

[Voyeur]

I would rather watch those actions scenes than the ones in Begins.

Not me. I certainly left BEGINS with the feeling this Batman would totally kick those other Batmen's butts...thanks to the overall impression of skill, force and quickness.

 

[MacLeod]

Not me. I certainly left BEGINS with the feeling this Batman would totally kick those other Batmen's butts...thanks to the overall impression of skill, force and quickness.

I'm not talking about who is the better Batman or who is better fighter in real life or in the movie I'm talking about what I can see. I don't care if Bale is an amazing fighter and he can make Batman do things that were mind blowing if I can't see it I don't like it. At least in the other movies I can see the action, the fights may not have been that good but at least I can see them. You could get the perfect guy to play Superman and put him in the perfectly written and directed Superman movie if you see wires when he flies will you like it? If you get a less than good Supreman movie but the flying sequences are good won't' you like them more, not the movie, just the flying? That's my point, whatever your opinion is of the other Batman movies is your opinion but for me I want to see some type of fighting and the other four movies delivered that more than Begins for me. When the camera is two inches away from the action and the editing is too quick the only fighting that I want at that point is between me and the director and editor.

 

[Voyeur]

I'm not really talking about the actors either. I'm talking about the way the fighting was depicted. Fast. Harsh. Powerful. I'll agree with you about seeing more of exactly what he's doing in these fights...but I don't want it to be at the expense of the gritty impact depicted by THIS Batman. And I certainly don't want the fights to look too choreographed.

 

[Crook]

...but I don't want it to be at the expense of the gritty impact depicted by THIS Batman. And I certainly don't want the fights to look too choreographed.

Neither of which would be affected in the least, just because it were filmed/edited differently.