BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[smallville fan]

I will concede the possibility that Batman and Superman teaming up has been in the works for some time, I cannot in good conscious say otherwise, in fact I don't doubt the possibility. However, I don't believe it that it was the prefered option for a moment, I cannot proclaim myself to know what the motives were for life after Man of Steel, but from what I've seen and read it screams to me that it was the back up option. All I can do is look at the evidence, the quotes, the announcements, the critical reception, and yes even the damn bloody logo and make my opinion based on all of that. If I'm wrong, so be it, I will man up and admit to misjudging the situation and I'll move on. And if my posts sound of dislike it's not because of the studio, it's because of the man behind the directing chair, and yes that probably does come into play into how I interpret what we know, I'll readily admit to that. If news came out that Affleck was also directing then frankly I wouldn't have cared whether it was plan A, B or Z.

You should read this, maybe you could learn something.

http://www.inquisitr.com/920677/ben-affleck-began-man-of-steel-2-discussions-months-ago/

Although hardcore fanboys and fangirls are still reeling from news that Ben Affleck will play Batman in Man of Steel 2, apparently the actor was approached about the role months ago.


Details about how the Argo director landed the coveted part are few and far between at the moment. However, sources recently told The Hollywood Reporter that Affleck and Snyder were talking about Batman months before the Superman flick hit theaters

Anonymous sources claim that Zack Snyder began pitching the Superman vs. Batman storyline shortly after completing work on Man of Steel.

 

[jmc]

Maybe you could learn to read what I said.

 

[DA_Champion]

I will concede the possibility that Batman and Superman teaming up has been in the works for some time, I cannot in good conscious say otherwise, in fact I don't doubt the possibility. However, I don't believe it that it was the prefered option for a moment, I cannot proclaim myself to know what the motives were for life after Man of Steel, but from what I've seen and read it screams to me that it was the back up option. All I can do is look at the evidence, the quotes, the announcements, the critical reception, the story within the film and yes even the damn bloody logo and make my opinion based on all of that. If I'm wrong, so be it, I will man up and admit to misjudging the situation and I'll move on. And if my posts sound of dislike it's not because of the studio, it's because of the man behind the directing chair, and yes that probably does come into play into how I interpret what we know, I'll readily admit to that. If news came out that Affleck was also directing then frankly I wouldn't have cared whether it was plan A, B or Z.

What do you think was the original plan?

 

[Glassjaw]

Well Man of Steels inception was years and years before Avengers took over the world. It may have just come out in cinemas, but it was filmed 2 years ago, written long before then.

If you ask me the original plan is in plenty of interviews for all to read. Goyer and Zack were adopting Nolans method of putting all your effort and thought on the film your making, and nothing more. If it's lucly enough to work and connect with audiences, that's when you plan sequals. This is clearly what can be seen in Man of Steel as well. It sets up nothing except Man of Steel 2 in my opinion.

All these talks with Affleck which now sound like they started towards the beginning of the year is still a reaction to how huge the Avengers were, and WB wanting to finally do their own DC cinematic universe.

 

[jmc]

I still don't think WB are committed beyond Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman.

What do you think was the original plan?

Direct sequel, I still can't help but feel that even if talks had begun in regard to Batman months ago the preference would still have been MoS 2. There's no doubt in my mind had MoS made the kind of box office WB were hoping for Batman/Bruce Wayne is at best a cameo in film 2.

 

[DA_Champion]

I still don't think WB are committed beyond Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman.

There's evidence for wonder woman?

Direct sequel, I still can't help but feel that even if talks had begun in regard to Batman months ago the preference would still have been MoS 2. There's no doubt in my mind had MoS made the kind of box office WB were hoping for Batman/Bruce Wayne is at best a cameo in film 2.

I think they hedged their bets. They had supergirl, Wayne Enterprises, Kord Industries, LexCorp, all show up in MoS.

Anyhow, I generally agree with you. I'm really disappointed with this, I hope it doesn't suck.

 

[Herolee10]

Hell, they could easily make a reference, especially with Lois and Clark being reporters, that there have been news reports of other mysterious vigilantes/mystery heroes appearing across the globe, which was trigger by the events from Zod's invasion and near destruction of the planet.

Lois is a reporter, so it wouldn't be hard to imagine that she could be colleagues with Iris Allen, who we all know is Barry Allen's (The Flash) Wife/Love interest, so that's one lead where Lois could mention on how a colleague of hers has been tracking down a hero who is just as fast, if not faster, than Superman in Central City.

Batman could also make note on how he's been keeping tabs of the other heroes appearing across the globe.

At the end of the film, both superman and Batman can both agree that it'd be best to approach these other heroes and perhaps work together somewhere down the line.

 

[jmc]

I don't think there's the genuine desire on WB part to do what Marvel have done. If they can get up and running Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman franchises that more or less covers the superhero spectrum at the studio, it's not as if they need these characters to survive, and it's not as big a commitment as what Marvel are doing. It give DC fans a universe on film of sorts, albeit a limited one that reduces risk on their part. Flash's demotion to TV tells me they have no confidence in B-list characters.

 

[Glassjaw]

With so much up in the air with this project, I think the only tthing its possible to predict is this film finishing with a nod to the other heroes in the justicr league, sending cinema goers around the world absolutely nuts.

 

[Herolee10]

I'm not sure if it was just me then, but on the day that the news was released about the next Superman film having Batman in it, wasn't there some additional info in that news release that said that Warner Bros was aiming to release a JL film in 2017, with a Flash film taking place in 2016?

 

[Glassjaw]

Hmm I dont recall about the JL bit, but I cannot wait for the ball to get rolling on The Flash. That film has so much potential.

 

[Marvin]

Direct sequel, I still can't help but feel that even if talks had begun in regard to Batman months ago the preference would still have been MoS 2. There's no doubt in my mind had MoS made the kind of box office WB were hoping for Batman/Bruce Wayne is at best a cameo in film 2.

Here's the problem.
What you are suggesting hinges on the creative merit driven hollywood system. Any fool can see that a another superman solo and another batman solo leading up to this would be "better" persay. Hell, that line of thinking would argue that a solo for every member of the jla before the fact, would be "Better".

But when it comes to what "Studios want", that's rarely a matter of what's "better" or not. The studio wants their profits and major returns on investments and majority market share...etc. This is what often motivates their "plan a". Which is precisely what we are discussing here. As I've said before, the last time wb sent out a major successful solo sequel film against the novelty that is avengers they were soundly trounced, and this time you will be dealing with a more conditioned audience. This is Hollywood we are talking about here. All studios do is copy and try to beat each other to the punch(see all the similar animated films to be green lit in the same year, antz for example, see the snow white movies last year..etc). WB's plan A was to compete with the rival studios with a novelty of their own. And if this buzz shows anything, they have achieved that.
Fully creative merit driven producing went out the window with Nolan and his give the executives hell attitude(though he did cave on catwoman and female leads).

Even if MoS was a mega hit, MOS would mostly like only do TDK numbers with TDK hype at best, why would the studio PREFER that over what they are getting now? Why? Cause it would be "better"?

And secondly you are missing sight of one key element. There is no way a batman reboot film would do as well as the previous batman films left off at. Coming off of nolan, there is no way. But a batman reboot coming off of an avengers cross over that is endeared to the audience and has a proven actor in the role?
Pretty sure you would see the old IM3 victory lap money there.

And please stop implying you are looking at the evidence, the only "evidence" we have gotten(form as close to the horses mouth as we can hope) officially argues the opposite of you.
Your evidence is things like, well MOS didn't do as good(as other successful reboots), and you don't like or trust Snyder etc.

That's what I see/think anyways.

 

[Steyin]

If I had to take the "facts" and everything I've seen and read at face value, I too come to the same conclusion as jmc. Never for an instant did or does this film scream "plan A". I know that recent article claims otherwise, but in all honesty, it screams damage control to me after the backlash of the Affleck announcement. If it was in fact plan A, then ok, that's fine, but it sure never felt like it.

At this point, however, I am also convinced that solo films in the vein of what Marvel is doing is in fact NOT WB's agenda. I feel that they will have characters pop up in other characters' films (if we see any in the future) as a means to establish a "shared" or collective universe while reaping the benefits (monetary) of more heroes in one film. I wouldn't be surprised also if their growing TV universe comes into the mix, ala AoS as Marvel is now doing.

It makes for a unique strategy and rather interesting possibilities in my eyes without the need for a solo film for everyone while catering to a wider audience.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I'm almost okay with this. Comics tend to have characters pop in and out quite a bit.

 

[Frodo]

I think theres a difference between Snyder's plan A and WB 's plan A. Its clear to me Snyder wanted a solo MOS follow up where as I tend to think there was a strong faction in WB which wanted either a JLA or team up film to be next. El Mays report about Bale in December says to me that WB or at least One faction didn't want to wait before putting heroes together. While the MOS bo was I think the greenlight to do BvS, I don't think it was some last minute desperate effort from WB, as fans are spinning it. I think a lot if fans assumed that we were getting MOS 2 because if Snyders statements but in reality, WB never officially said we were getting a solo sequel. Everything was dependent on how MOS performed, so nothing was guaranteed and set in stone. Ultimately while it may not have been plan A for One faction at WB,there were clearly forces that wanted to get moving on a team up film and didn't want to wait for each of the characters to have several solo films before doing it.

 

[Marvin]

I think theres a difference between Snyder's plan A and WB 's plan A. Its clear to me Snyder wanted a solo MOS follow up where as I tend to think there was a strong faction in WB which wanted either a JLA or team up film to be next. El Mays report about Bale in December says to me that WB or at least One faction didn't want to wait before putting heroes together. While the MOS bo was I think the greenlight to do BvS, I don't think it was some last minute desperate effort from WB, as fans are spinning it. I think a lot if fans assumed that we were getting MOS 2 because if Snyders statements but in reality, WB never officially said we were getting a solo sequel. Everything was dependent on how MOS performed, so nothing was guaranteed and set in stone. Ultimately while it may not have been plan A for One faction at WB,there were clearly forces that wanted to get moving on a team up film and didn't want to wait for each of the characters to have several solo films before doing it.

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

I wonder what would have happened had MoS been released 10 years ago to a similar performance(if this move had been pulled than).

I wonder what Sony would have done with ASM2 had Sony owned a single other bankable hero(not named ghost rider).

I wonder what would have happened had Nolan still been working on TDK

I'm of the mind that this is a mostly opportunity driven studio decision. I do think the decision is all the more easy given Snyder has a proclaimed affinity for batman, as does goyer.

 

[Smallville13]

There's no way that WB hasn't had this planned for a while. It's no doubt probably true that Snyder was apparently in talks with Affleck months before MOS was released. Honestly my dread has subsided a bit following the Affleck announcement. I guess it's just acceptance of the whole project, plus I think Affleck is a solid casting. I just wonder who Superman and Batman will be fighting. We should get a villain(s) announcement soon right?

 

[Marvin]

There's no way that WB hasn't had this planned for a while. It's no doubt probably true that Snyder was apparently in talks with Affleck months before MOS was released. Honestly my dread has subsided a bit following the Affleck announcement. I guess it's just acceptance of the whole project, plus I think Affleck is a solid casting. I just wonder who Superman and Batman will be fighting. We should get a villain(s) announcement soon right?

The villain announcement, then the villain casting.
Pretty sure if they play this right it will be yet another huge trending topic to complete the trilogy of buzz mounting announcements that have surrounded WB's DCU and more specifically worlds finest.

The one bit of evidence I would consider against this being planned earlier is the lack of post credit stinger(involving bats). Then again Non of the people involved have seemed particularly interested in the gimmick in the past.

Still think Zimmer saying "here we go again" when referring to the plans during before the release clenches it.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

The villain announcement, then the villain casting.
Pretty sure if they play this right it will be yet another huge trending topic to complete the trilogy of buzz mounting announcements that have surrounded WB's DCU and more specifically worlds finest.

The one bit of evidence I would consider against this being planned earlier is the lack of post credit stinger(involving bats). Then again Non of the people involved have seemed particularly interested in the gimmick in the past.

Still think Zimmer saying "here we go again" when referring to the plans during before the release clenches it.

Snyder and Goyer could have been under the belief that MOS2 was up next. That is, until, the beginning of this year, when WB decided to finally strike, because of fluid talks with Ben, to finally get a team-up film off the ground. WB has always been hot to get a team-up done. Snyder and Goyer up until the beginning of the year may have thought a straight sequel was to follow, that may have even been their preference. But then at the beginning of year, WB, comes to them, and says we have Ben in serious discussions, let's make this happen, now.

 

[Loki882]

Snyder hinted at a larger DCU well before MOS came out, so I seriously doubt that he was out of the loop on this.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

^Yes but that doesn't mean he thought a team-up would necessarily be the next film, he still could have thought MOS2 was next and then a team-up film of some kind a little down the line. I'm only speculating anyway.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Here's four month old timeline I did for the Justice League, for what's it worth.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=25571435&postcount=452

 

[TheBat812]

This plan a, plan b speculation is ridiculous. Thematically, mos could easily have set up another standalone or a team up. I'd argue that a team up actually is a better plan, since mos is the introduction of superheroes to the world, and this next film can explore the varying philosophies contained therein, as they will help each other develop. I also don't buy that standalone films are inherently the 'better' choice. This could be a great trilogy deconstructing heroes and our perceptions of them and their perceptions of themselves. A much more concise story, theme and purpose than the cluster**** of mediocrity that is the marvel universe.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

From day one it has been established that it is a shared universe. So after something as catastrophic as the events in MOS, I think it would have been silly if no other superhero reacted to that. How can something like that occur and not have some other hero in this shared universe try to figure out what the deal is with him?

 

[JackWhite]

How do you know this film won't be good?

I know I'm jumping the gun, but I'm less pumped about Batman Vs Superman than I was for a straight up MOS sequel with just Supes as the main focus. I'll still watch this film on release day though. That still hasn't changed.