Is Batman Returns darker than Batman89?

[panda_eater]

I was watching Tim Burton and he said when BR came out some people told him it was so much darker than first one and but then other people would tell him mucher lighter they thought it was, I thought it was an interesting question because B89 is itself extremely dark and serious where BR is less serious and sillier at times, but overall sadder and more depressing. If you put a gun to my head I guess I'd have to say Batman Returns is darker.

 

[[A]]

I haven't watched these movies in years -- but to me, B89 is way darker than BR.. but that's what I recall right now.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

RETURNS. it was gonna have a HUGE bodycount, but wound up not (much) less than 89.

 

[Catman]

Both are dark in different ways. B89 is noir. BR is goth. Same, but different.

 

[The Joker]

Yes, I think it's darker. Gotham looks darker, the villains are more twisted, especially the Penguin, Batman is more violent, and the violence in general is more graphic etc.

I can see why some of the soccer moms had some problems with it. But it's an awesome movie nonetheless.

 

[El Payaso]

It's sadder in the end. Penguin got a sadder story and fate (than Joker, let's say). Catwoman was all screwed too. Batman lost the love of his life. Nobody really won in the end. Ah, but Gotham was free from evil.

 

[luke1234]

I always thought Batman Returns was really close to a black and white film at moments. With the darkness and the snow i have to say Batman Returns was darker visually. I think B89 was more serious however and Joker was definitely more of a threat then the other villains.

 

[The Joker]

Joker was definitely more of a threat then the other villains.

I don't know if I'd entirely agree with that. Penguin nearly reduced Gotham to rubble. He gained control of the Batmobile. He tried to kill all the first born sons in Gotham. He nearly became the Mayor. Gotham suffered two major attacks from his Red Triangle Gang.

I think Penguin was just as great a threat as Joker, if not moreso.

 

[luke1234]

I don't know if I'd entirely agree with that. Penguin nearly reduced Gotham to rubble. He gained control of the Batmobile. He tried to kill all the first born sons in Gotham. He nearly became the Mayor. Gotham suffered two major attacks from his Red Triangle Gang.

I think Penguin was just as great a threat as Joker, if not moreso.

I know what your saying but i mean if you left me in a room with both of em, who would i be more afraid of? joker. I dont know, Returns had that kind of silliness that made you not take Penguin seriously even though he almost did destroy all of Gotham. I just saw Joker being more of a threat to Batman himself.

 

[The Joker]

I know what your saying but i mean if you left me in a room with both of em, who would i be more afraid of?

Both of them. Maybe Penguin a little bit more. He seemed to have a much more volatile nature. He bit the nose of one guy, tried to kill Catwoman when she rejected him, and shot one of his gang when he expressed doubts about his plan to kill children.

I dont know, Returns had that kind of silliness that made you not take Penguin seriously even though he almost did destroy all of Gotham. I just saw Joker being more of a threat to Batman himself.

Don't really agree with that. In addition to taking control of the Batmobile, Penguin also framed Batman for murder.

Joker didn't come close to doing anything like that to Batman.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Luke1234 Penguin bit a dude's nose. I take him seriously. Penguin was more violent in BR then he was I think in the comics.

But BR was darker then B89. Atmosphere was darker and they violence was greater.

 

[luke1234]

Yeah but you can also say that Mr. Freeze was violent/dangerous as well freezing all these people, hell he almost took over the whole world lol. Maybe im not putting it into words right. I get what you guys are saying. I guess for me its the realism of the character. The way Nicholson portrayed him helped a lot and i guess im more afraid of things grounded in reality. Joker did some crazy stuff too, gassed a whole restaurant, burned a dude to death, shot his favorite henchmen. This is just my opinion.

 

[Fenrir]

Maybe im not putting it into words right. I get what you guys are saying. I guess for me its the realism of the character. The way Nicholson portrayed him helped a lot and i guess im more afraid of things grounded in reality. Joker did some crazy stuff too, gassed a whole restaurant, burned a dude to death, shot his favorite henchmen. This is just my opinion.

I believe it is simply a subconscious apprehension towards admitting the possibility that the Penguin came off as a more threatening and challenging villain to Batman than the almighty Joker. Who would've thought?

 

[luke1234]

I believe it is simply a subconscious apprehension towards admitting the possibility that the Penguin came off as a more threatening and challenging villain to Batman than the almighty Joker. Who would've thought?

hahah u know that could be it

 

[Indrid Cold]

I believe it is simply a subconscious apprehension towards admitting the possibility that the Penguin came off as a more threatening and challenging villain to Batman than the almighty Joker. Who would've thought?

The penguin was only a greater threat in the essence that he had intelligent goons. Think about, the goons outfitted the Batmobile with closed circuit television access & remote control hardware. I'm sure they were responsible for converting that "Duck Car" Penguin was sporting, into what sounds (as he tears off from Arctic World) like a miniature version of BIGFOOT (the monster truck). Let's not forget being able to program and fit the penguins with mini surface to air missiles.In the end when you take his goons away, he just ended up just duking it our with Batman and failing miserably. I mean really, besides the fact that Batman had bats roosting in his ski-boat for emergency purposes, Penguin was no match. Joker (89) fough Batman, with the help of henchmen of course, but he still had an escape plan in the works. Oh and if Max Schreck hadn't lent a hand, he wouldn't have access to the lists of all of Gotham's first born.

 

[The Joker]

The penguin was only a greater threat in the essence that he had intelligent goons. Think about, the goons outfitted the Batmobile with closed circuit television access & remote control hardware. I'm sure they were responsible for converting that "Duck Car" Penguin was sporting, into what sounds (as he tears off from Arctic World) like a miniature version of BIGFOOT (the monster truck). Let's not forget being able to program and fit the penguins with mini surface to air missiles.In the end when you take his goons away, he just ended up just duking it our with Batman and failing miserably. I mean really, besides the fact that Batman had bats roosting in his ski-boat for emergency purposes, Penguin was no match. Joker (89) fough Batman, with the help of henchmen of course, but he still had an escape plan in the works. Oh and if Max Schreck hadn't lent a hand, he wouldn't have access to the lists of all of Gotham's first born.

And where would Joker have been without his henchmen? He wouldn't have been able to take out the mob competition. He sent his henchmen after Batman and Vicki. In fact, Joker never ever faced Batman solo until the very end. And that's only because all his men had been taken out. Joker never did anything without his men. He even went to Vicki's place with two henchmen in tow.

Penguin fronted Batman solo outside Shreck's department store, and he was alone when he framed Batman for murder when he killed the Ice Princess on the rooftop.

As for Max Schreck, he only helped because the Penguin was smart enough to gather enough incriminating evidence against Shreck to force him to co-operate with Penguin. Shreck was a pawn in Penguin's scheme. As for fighting Batman, Joker fared no better against the Bat than Penguin did.

Not to knock Joker, but Penguin was the greater threat overall. Both he and Joker are not fighters, and do rely on their henchmen for the muscle. The fact is that Penguin employs smarter muscle, and uses them more effectively than Joker did with his men.

I mean Joker was essentially running the mob. Penguin had a circus gang. And Penguin came off as a bigger threat.

 

[Indrid Cold]

And where would Joker have been without his henchmen? He wouldn't have been able to take out the mob competition. He sent his henchmen after Batman and Vicki. In fact, Joker never ever faced Batman solo until the very end. And that's only because all his men had been taken out. Joker never did anything without his men. He even went to Vicki's place with two henchmen in tow.

Penguin fronted Batman solo outside Shreck's department store, and he was alone when he framed Batman for murder when he killed the Ice Princess on the rooftop.

As for Max Schreck, he only helped because the Penguin was smart enough to gather enough incriminating evidence against Shreck to force him to co-operate with Penguin. Shreck was a pawn in Penguin's scheme. As for fighting Batman, Joker fared no better against the Bat than Penguin did.

Not to knock Joker, but Penguin was the greater threat overall. Both he and Joker are not fighters, and do rely on their henchmen for the muscle. The fact is that Penguin employs smarter muscle, and uses them more effectively than Joker did with his men.

I mean Joker was essentially running the mob. Penguin had a circus gang. And Penguin came off as a bigger threat.

Ok first off Penguin only confronted Batman in front of Schreck's because he was now a mayoral candidate, and now the "Political" thugs had his back. Batman new better than to take a chance at that moment, because he could be set up again, for attacking a political figure. Catwoman was the intriguing villain in that movie, because she was so low-tech.
Since Catwoman was a self made villain, she had the right to intervene at will between Batman and Penguin. I liked that because she got her revenge on the person she resented the most, no "real" sub-plot for her minus the quasi love quadangle (real word? You be the judge) between her two personalities and Batman and Bruce Wayne.
As far as Penguin being alone when he framed Batman, be careful how you phrase that: He was never alone. During the kidnapping frame up and planting of the Batarang, he was assisted by the poodle lady. During the killing of the Ice Princess frame up, he was already protected by the political powers that be (Max Schreck and his political commitee). Penguin knew that being in any particular place with Batman alone would be a bad move he would of had himself covered.
Before you say he was by himself on that roof when he threw that umbrella, full of bats, remember he is now a political pawn of Schreck, and he will have an alibi after alibi to cover up Penguin's activities. With this kind of "immunity": Penguin can pretty much do what he wants. Just look at his converted campaign/Batmobile command center. Even though that van was rockin' no one came knocking. Bottom line: Penguin performs better when he has insurance of his own protection, be it thugs or the law.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Ok first off Penguin only confronted Batman in front of Schreck's because he was now a mayoral candidate, and now the "Political" thugs had his back. Batman new better than to take a chance at that moment, because he could be set up again, for attacking a political figure. Catwoman was the intriguing villain in that movie, because she was so low-tech.
Since Catwoman was a self made villain, she had the right to intervene at will between Batman and Penguin. I liked that because she got her revenge on the person she resented the most, no "real" sub-plot for her minus the quasi love quadangle (real word? You be the judge) between her two personalities and Batman and Bruce Wayne.
As far as Penguin being alone when he framed Batman, be careful how you phrase that: He was never alone. During the kidnapping frame up and planting of the Batarang, he was assisted by the poodle lady. During the killing of the Ice Princess frame up, he was already protected by the political powers that be (Max Schreck and his political commitee). Penguin knew that being in any particular place with Batman alone would be a bad move he would of had himself covered.
Before you say he was by himself on that roof when he threw that umbrella, full of bats, remember he is now a political pawn of Schreck, and he will have an alibi after alibi to cover up Penguin's activities. With this kind of "immunity": Penguin can pretty much do what he wants. Just look at his converted campaign/Batmobile command center. Even though that van was rockin' no one came knocking. Bottom line: Penguin performs better when he has insurance of his own protection, be it thugs or the law.

batman was about to confront him. besides, batman being framed wasnt till later on..

 

[The Joker]

Ok first off Penguin only confronted Batman in front of Schreck's because he was now a mayoral candidate, and now the "Political" thugs had his back.

What political thugs? He was ALONE! Batman could easily have assaulted or terrorized Penguin then and there if he wanted, and there was no witnesses to it.

Catwoman was the intriguing villain in that movie, because she was so low-tech.

That's your opinion on which one you personally found more intriguing. We're not debating your taste in that.

As far as Penguin being alone when he framed Batman, be careful how you phrase that: He was never alone.

Of course he was. Did you see anyone with him when he threw the umbrella with the bats in it at the Ice Princess? No.

During the kidnapping frame up and planting of the Batarang, he was assisted by the poodle lady.

LOL! A great help she'd be against Batman t:

She was only there because her dog had the batarang.

During the killing of the Ice Princess frame up, he was already protected by the political powers that be (Max Schreck and his political commitee).

What political powers? He wasn't even elected yet. He was a candidate. The only high power person in Gotham that was backing him was Shreck. And you're not going to tell me Batman was afraid of Max.

Before you say he was by himself on that roof when he threw that umbrella, full of bats, remember he is now a political pawn of Schreck, and he will have an alibi after alibi to cover up Penguin's activities. With this kind of "immunity": Penguin can pretty much do what he wants.

Don't be absurd. How would the Penguin explain his presence at the site of the Ice Princess' kidnapping and' murder if Batman had apprehended him on that rooftop?

He couldn't.

Just look at his converted campaign/Batmobile command center. Even though that van was rockin' no one came knocking.

LOL! How do you know nobody came knocking afterwards?

This is getting ridiculous now

Bottom line: Penguin performs better when he has insurance of his own protection, be it thugs or the law.

As does the Joker in B'89. Can you name me one scene where he voluntarily operated without his henchman backing him? No.

The difference is that Penguin used his resources alot more effectively, which is why he accomplished more as a threat to Batman and Gotham City.

Joker was great in B'89. Loved him. But the Penguin was portrayed as a more effective threat.

 

[Indrid Cold]

batman was about to confront him. besides, batman being framed wasnt till later on..

The point was, he knew Penguin had some sort of plan but he had to be hesitant. If he was going to confront him in front of Schreck's, and if Penguin WAS such a HUGE threat, he should of chased him instead of Catwoman. But she blew up the store? Yes she did but it was closing time anyway, he could of let the fire department take care of the blaze, and he could have apprehended Penguin right there. The reason he didn't is because he was still lacking proof of Penguin really doing anything wrong.

 

[The Joker]

The point was, he knew Penguin had some sort of plan but he had to be hesitant. If he was going to confront him in front of Schreck's, and if Penguin WAS such a HUGE threat, he should of chased him instead of Catwoman. But she blew up the store? Yes she did but it was closing time anyway, he could of let the fire department take care of the blaze, and he could have apprehended Penguin right there. The reason he didn't is because he was still lacking proof of Penguin really doing anything wrong.

Batman could so easily have taken Penguin, and tried terrorizing him into telling him what he was really up to. It's a classic Batman trait. He's done it to big name figures in Gotham many times before.

And Burton's Batman was a killer, too.

 

[[A]]

Now, I got a question for those with extra-good memory: how much freedom was Burton given back then..? Before the 1st movie and before the 2nd one..?

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Batman Returns is absolutely corny, so, no it's not as dark.

 

[Indrid Cold]

What political thugs? He was ALONE! Batman could easily have assaulted or terrorized Penguin then and there if he wanted, and there was no witnesses to it.

What political powers? He wasn't even elected yet. He was a candidate. The only high power person in Gotham that was backing him was Shreck. And you're not going to tell me Batman was afraid of Max.

As does the Joker in B'89. Can you name me one scene where he voluntarily operated without his henchman backing him? No.

The difference is that Penguin used his resources alot more effectively, which is why he accomplished more as a threat to Batman and Gotham City.

Think about this way, if you are a political candidate for any office, you have people behind the scenes that work for you, in order to preserve your appearance. If he assualted or terrorized Penguin, don't you think it would be easy for Penguin to have a task force organized by the police to have Batman captured? He had other plans, he even stated he was just "assesing the damage" when Bats confronted him, he was just doing "upstanding Mayor stuff". Besides, if he never got Schreck on his side, all he'd be is a glorified kidnapper.

 

[Indrid Cold]

And Burton's Batman was a killer, too.

An accidental killer...but yes a killer all the same.