Is Batman Returns darker than Batman89?

[El Payaso]

These are flaws in the writing.

Kinda my point.

 

[GothamLegend]

That image still isnt nice looking even by todays standards. Nolan mentioend that Returns went too far with being dark and mentioned "some" disturbing imagery with Penguin. That must be it

He also called the films idosyncratic, and was amazed the series got to four films being handled that way. We all know B89 was innovative in its tone and look. As films, and stories, there was a lot to be desired.

mascara wearing teenagers is the last thing that would come to my mind.

Burton is the original "goth", he kind of sparked the "goth" trend. His characters, films all perpetually deal with loneliness and all his characters, kind of including himself, are all kind of pathetically self loathing. That's what I meant by the Hot Topic comment. Those are the types that shop there. They want to "express their dark side" and all that stupid crap. They end up just looking like fools.

Take a look at interviews at press conferences leading up to B89. Burton is sporting all black, and wearing sun glasses in sit down interviews INDOORS. He's just too corny.

I'm just saying if people are going to make fun of Shumacher for his homo-erotic tendancies, they need to make fun of Burton as well for being a grown man who acts and uses his material to project his "goth kid" like sensibilities. They are both equally pathetic and funny.

 

[Ponyboy]

Burton is the original "goth", he kind of sparked the "goth" trend. His characters, films all perpetually deal with loneliness and all his characters, kind of including himself, are all kind of pathetically self loathing. That's what I meant by the Hot Topic comment. Those are the types that shop there. They want to "express their dark side" and all that stupid crap. They end up just looking like fools.

Take a look at interviews at press conferences leading up to B89. Burton is sporting all black, and wearing sun glasses in sit down interviews INDOORS. He's just too corny.

I'm just saying if people are going to make fun of Shumacher for his homo-erotic tendancies, they need to make fun of Burton as well for being a grown man who acts and uses his material to project his "goth kid" like sensibilities. They are both equally pathetic and funny.

Forgive me, but, you write as if you're at that young age where you think you've suddenly figured out everyone and everything. Clearly what you've shown is that your mindset is shockingly narrow; demonstrated by an opinion of Burton based on his manner of dress from 20 years ago. A lot of people wear black... least of all the elite of Hollywood during interviews.

You know, Jack Nicholson wears sunglasses nearly every time he's indoors. What are you closed minded thoughts on that?

 

[El Payaso]

Forgive me, but, you write as if you're at that young age where you think you've suddenly figured out everyone and everything. Clearly what you've shown is that your mindset is shockingly narrow; demonstrated by an opinion of Burton based on his manner of dress from 20 years ago. A lot of people wear black... least of all the elite of Hollywood during interviews.

You must be joking, Pony.

This is perfectly impeccable adult logics:
Burton makes characters in white make-up, messy hair and circle around the eyes. That kind of people buy at Hot Topic. Show me the flaw in that reasoning.

Because God knows Hot Topic does not sell Ledger's Joker products.

I might be wrong though.

You know, Jack Nicholson wears sunglasses nearly every time he's indoors. What are you closed minded thoughts on that?

I think you're trying to mock me here. Nicholson has spent a lifetime obviously mocking blind people.

 

[GothamAlleys]

He also called the films idosyncratic, and was amazed the series got to four films being handled that way. We all know B89 was innovative in its tone and look. As films, and stories, there was a lot to be desired..

No, he didnt say that. he said it was impressive to have 4 films made and that that style will eventually get tired after so many movies.

And idiosyncratic means peculiar and individual

I'm just saying if people are going to make fun of Shumacher for his homo-erotic tendancies,

Its not the homo-eretic elements of Schumacher's movies that irk me. Its the calm and "i need a hug and Im on Valium and so sad all the time" portrayal of Kilmer Batman, its taking out all of Batman's signature elements (poses like bat, spreading wings, keeping to the shadow, anger, losing self control) and turning it into generic, cape-flowing superhero movies that I have issues with. Even Clooney which portrayed the 50s Batman didnt work as well as West who was much better and much more fun as the same incarnation. And much more fitting

 

[Mister Meddle]

I'm just saying if people are going to make fun of Shumacher for his homo-erotic tendancies, they need to make fun of Burton as well for being a grown man who acts and uses his material to project his "goth kid" like sensibilities. They are both equally pathetic and funny.

I don't know what's worse. Your petty statement or your tendency of stereotyping. A number of Burton's films are very good, regardless if they're cartoonish and visually "dark". It's just as silly as a grown man criticizing comic book fans for reading the graphic novels and watching the movies. So they're out of the ordinary, it doesn't mean that they're "pathetic".

 

[Brother Jack]

Returns is absolutely darker than Batman. Especially as a blockbuster film it is extraordinarily dark. The thing with Burton's treatment is that he gives it a fantastical, almost cartoonish quality at times that lifts the morose themes and tones. I mean, the Penguin is literally an attempted mass child murderer. You can't get much darker than that.

 

[GothamAlleys]

the Penguin is literally an attempted mass child murderer. You can't get much darker than that.

And he was also murdering children since young age. he was responsible for those mysterious child disappearances in the circus. That part when bruce reads the vintage papers and we and him realizes what kind of a monster we're dealing with was kinda creepy, especially with Elfman's score at the moment

 

[Frodo]

Interesting topic. In alot of ways I would say Batman Returns is actually alot closer to a dark twisted comedy then Batman 89. I think while the violence in BR is more disturbing and macbre, in terms of tone, Batman 89 is actually darker and more serious imo.

 

[baerrtt]

Burton once expressed misgivings around the hype for BATMAN '89 as he felt that people weren't processing the movie on it's own merits even if they liked it. I feel that the reaction to BR from some parents is an example of this because the previous film was equally far from family friendly and yet here ppl were acting like there was some major tonal shift when there really wasn't.

 

[The Joker]

Doesn't Burton consider Returns less dark than the first movie?

 

[El Payaso]

Doesn't Burton consider Returns less dark than the first movie?

I have only heard Burton talking about how different people would say different things about it. BR was darker/not as dark as B89. And he was puzzled by it.

 

[The Joker]

It's on Wikipedia's page for BR that I read it. It quotes Burton as saying "I like Batman Returns better than the first one. There was this big backlash that it was too dark, but I found this movie much less dark."

 

[Mister Meddle]

It's on Wikipedia's page for BR that I read it. It quotes Burton as saying "I like Batman Returns better than the first one. There was this big backlash that it was too dark, but I found this movie much less dark."

Yeah. He says that in one of the videos in the BR blu ray extras.

 

[Papa G]

I like Burton and Nolan movies the way they are. I got one bizzare Gothic version and one real world take, and both to me are equally fascinating on different levels. Wouldnt change a thing in them and I mean it. Well, the only thing I really dislike are the sonar eyes but thats it

Exactly...I think B89 and BR were both fantastical, but B89 is a bit more gritty. BR is almost comic or cartoonish, but I'd say it is darker than B89. The Penguin sets out to kill children, Catwoman is killed by her boss, DeVito bites a guy's nose off, there are all kinds of sexual inuendos, the list goes on...

 

[Lantern Venom]

I saw both of these in theaters and they each sparked some controversy at the time. Both depicted violence against women. Both depicted the near-murder of children. Both depicted the hero killing the villians when necessary. I watched them both against last week. I think BR has the edge because it showed a little more of what BM '89 implied:

* In BM '89, we see a scarred Alicia after the Joker burned her; in BR, we actually witness Selina Kyle pushed from a windown by Max Shreck. We also see cats trying to eat her fingers.

* Later on, Shreck shoots Catwoman several times before she nearly commits suicide via electric french kiss.

* In BM '89, Batman kills some of the Joker's gang in Axis' Chemicals with a bomb. He does similar things to the Red Triangle Gang, but he uses the Batmobile to set the fire-spitting clown on fire.

* In BM '89, The Joker shows us that Alicia died; in BR returns, we see the Penguin murder the Ice Princess.

* There was also more blood in BR: Catwoman slashes an attacker's face, Penguin bites the nose of a Shreck employee, Catwoman stabs Batman with her claws, and a disfigured Penguin dies after oozing a substance that seems to be a mixture of toxic waste and blood.

*The Joker tried to kill a crowd of adults with Smile-X gas, but the Penguin intended to kill children by drowning them in toxic waste. The second one comes off as more shocking.


While I don't think either Catwoman or The Penguin came off nearly as well as the Joker, BR was a touch darker than it's predecessor.

 

[GothamLegend]

It's on Wikipedia's page for BR that I read it. It quotes Burton as saying "I like Batman Returns better than the first one. There was this big backlash that it was too dark, but I found this movie much less dark."

And Keaton hates Batman Returns. Said he's barely watched the whole thing, in one of his recent interviews about Batman movies.

I think B89 works better because it isn't pure, ridiculous fantasy. I'd classify it more as surrealism. But it has a gritty, pulpy like quality to it that extends back to the very early Bob Kane stuff.

Returns is just flat out fantastical, and quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[El Payaso]

And Keaton hates Batman Returns. Said he's barely watched the whole thing, in one of his recent interviews about Batman movies.

Feel free to link.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I dont believe Keaton would say that at all, if anything I recall him saying he enjoyed BR much more.

 

[The Joker]

GothamLegend, is this what you're talking about: http://io9.com/batman-returns/

 

[GothamAlleys]

I dont believe Keaton would say that at all, if anything I recall him saying he enjoyed BR much more.

Sadly, GothamLegend is kinda right here. He said in couple different interrviews that he isnt that fond of BR

The actor, who next appears in the action/comedy “The Other Guys”, says “Toy Story 3″ has given him new-found faith in a type of film he’s never really appreciated before-the sequel. “I think [the makers of sequels] just get soft and lazy, and don’t think they need to try anymore”, Keaton, who had appeared in only one sequel, “Batman Returns” (1992) up till now
Moviehole.net

It was quite the cast with Michelle Pfeiffer and Danny DeVito and everyone. It wasn’t as satisfying to me when I saw it, but maybe that’s because the bar was set so high on the first one. I think I only watched it one time.
latimes.com

He did appreciate it more in '92 when he said its much better than the first one on Letterman

 

[El Payaso]

Ah, he wasn't "as satisfied." That's far removed from saying that he "hates" BR. I myself wasn't as satisfied with BR as I was with B89, but I - much like Keaton - don't hate it.

After all he said in an interview that he would do a third one if Burton was making it.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

Sadly, GothamLegend is kinda right here. He said in couple different interrviews that he isnt that fond of BR

The actor, who next appears in the action/comedy “The Other Guys”, says “Toy Story 3″ has given him new-found faith in a type of film he’s never really appreciated before-the sequel. “I think [the makers of sequels] just get soft and lazy, and don’t think they need to try anymore”, Keaton, who had appeared in only one sequel, “Batman Returns” (1992) up till now
Moviehole.net

It was quite the cast with Michelle Pfeiffer and Danny DeVito and everyone. It wasn’t as satisfying to me when I saw it, but maybe that’s because the bar was set so high on the first one. I think I only watched it one time.
latimes.com

He did appreciate it more in '92 when he said its much better than the first one on Letterman

Well, he was promoting it back then, it had only just come out.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ahh I guess your right, I suppose all of the interviews I was referencing were around the time of the films release, strange though Keaton would feel that way.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

He did appreciate it more in '92 when he said its much better than the first one on Letterman

Eh, he was promoting. What do you expect? That he said "Guys, we ****ed up. The Gothic weirdo took over, we got rid of everything that was great about the first one and replaced it with trash."