Is DC more progressive than Marvel?

[Arach Knight]

It isn't usually brought up as frequently, but comic books are facing an impending boom of realism, in their storylines. With this realism, has come a greater appreciation for diversity in characters, both leading and supporting. While Marvel can be applauded for the likes of Storm and Bishop, or Sunfire, Hulkling and Wiccan, is Marvel doing it more for gimmiick (such as Ultimate Colossus) or more as a reflection of the times?

I personally feel that DC has done a far beter job of legitimately approaching minoirty groups (ethnically and socially). The story of Renee Montoya (who is latino no less) coming out to her parents in Gotham Central, was one of the best tales Greg Rucka has ever scribed. Mr.Terrifics ascention in the JSA has made him a more viable character in various DC books, including a leading role in Checkmate. Wonder Woman once dated a black man (Trevor Scott). Most recnetly, the new Batwoman is also a lesbian. More and more, we are begging to see a DC that is steadily relating their books to the current world. Many ethnic and sexual backgrounds are being approached, in a mostly tasteful manner. They even made a former lead character in Gotham Central, into the Spectre (the right hand of God), who is a prominent character and force, in the DC Universe.

Again I turn to Marvel, who isn't far behind, but seem to really have a gimmick/agenda angle in their portrayals. I need only point to Bishop and his current romance of a white woman. Now in the previous paragraph I applauded Wonder Woman for dating Trevor Scott, while I am scrutinizing Bishop's relationship. The woman with which he was involved with, is actually in charge of monitoring the mutants at the Xavier institute. Her role and ethnicity, compared to Bishops position and ethnicity, almost give the story a sort of "forbidden/mandingo fantasy" angle, in which Bishop cold be likened to a slave, that is sleeping with the plantation masters wife. Perhaps I am over stating the correlation, but it does seem that Marvel's approach/agenda, promotes a gimmick ridden view, rather than a genuine point of human interest in diversity.

 

[SuperFerret]

The Batwoman thing smacks of gimmickry.

 

[Arach Knight]

At the sake of sounding like i'm nagging, please vote, and please provide a well rounded response. It may or may not smack of gimmickery, but please give examples or reasons. "Just because" won't make for much of a debate.

 

[SuperFerret]

I won't vote, because none of the three options apply to me. I feel that both companies are trying to be progressive by both using gimmicks and actual story-telling.

Batwoman is just one of the many aspects of the Slver-Age (I believe) that have been making a return. Making her a lesbian seems gratuitous.

 

[The Leaguer]

Everyone knows DC is better than Marvel. In everything. Always. Always has been. As a company, DC is completely, utterly and unquestionably the best there is. Looking at the publisher of a comic book is the best way to judge its quality, and DC is always higher.

 

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

Everyone knows DC is better than Marvel. In everything. Always. Always has been. As a company, DC is completely, utterly and unquestionably the best there is. Looking at the publisher of a comic book is the best way to judge its quality, and DC is always higher.

when did your opinion become fact?

 

[Motown Marvel]

i dont think batwoman being a lesbian is a gimmick....nor do i think it can be judged as a gimmick until we actually see her story play out, which we have yet to see.

hearing the DC guys talk about this situation (at SDCC) on diversity, and specifically batwoman, they seemed very honest and genuine in their approach....and that is to not make it a gimmick or to tokenize (sp?). i.e. renee montoya may be a lesbian, but that doesnt define her character....because she's also a latino, a cop, an alcoholic, a roman catholic, etc....

and to be fair, DC did nothing to create the huge buzz over batwoman's sexuality, it was the media that picked it up and blew it out of proportion, which may make it seem gimmicky. but to DC, Kathy Kane is not their new lesbian character. she is just a new character, who also happens to be a lesbian. and im sure once we see her story play out, we'll find that there is much more to her character than her sexuality.

 

[Not Jake]

Geez Batwoman is easily worse than any gay Marvel character, as far as gimmick, shock-value homosexuality goes

 

[droogiedroogie2]

when did your opinion become fact?

You're one of those people who can't read sarcasm, aren't you?

 

[The Leaguer]

when did your opinion become fact?

It's always been fact. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

The Batwoman thing smacks of gimmickry.

I agree. It didn't seem organic to the character. I don't know, maybe it is organic, and maybe it's just the minor media frenzy over it that makes me feel like it's a gimmick, but I just didn't feel right about it.

In general, I have always felt that DC actually sets trends, and the so-called "House of Ideas" appropriates them, claims to have come up with them, and runs them into the ground. Take special note of Marvel's rediscovered obsession with heroes fighting each other, something that was supposed to have gone out with the Silver Age, about the same time as Batman stopped being declared King Batman of The Alien Planet Xarthon every few issues. Watch for Marvel to suddenly move in the direction of DC's "Silver Age Made Realistic" ideology, which has been governing the DCU at least since the road trip arc of the Green Arrow series.

Obviously, neither of the Big Two is ever truly on the cutting edge of comics. Progressive ideas don't sell. Solo, which is pretty impressive coming from the mainline of a Big Two company, rather than a Vertigo imprint, comes literally decades after many of the artistic ideas in it were first expressed.

That aside, when examining superhero comics, particularly Big Two superhero comics, I have to say that DC is generally better because it's always felt more genuine. The theory of what Marvel was supposed to be about seems like that shouldn't be the case, but it is. Marvel has always been laughing at its fans because they can crank out buckets of **** and for some reason be hailed as the past, present, and future of superhero comics. In the 1960s the discrepancies between the script and art was literally offensive to the intellects of comics fans, yet early Marvel is still seen as classic. In the late 70s and early 80s, Marvel referred to its fans as "Marvel zombies," and the fans embraced it! If you were a Marvel fan in those days, I must ask you: why were you all so proud to be blindly allegiant to a company that was so obviously laughing at you as it took your money in exchange for fiction that a three-year-old would find shallow and flimsy?

In the 1980s and 1990s, they came up with what may be their lone original idea, "gritty realism," which was a terrible idea to begin with (see the early 90s incarnation of DC's Dr. Fate), and made it continually worse. DC gave in and followed that trend, probably their worst editorial move ever. And the entire time, Marvel was laughing all the way to the bank, making cash off of an idea that ran counter to the entire suspension-of-disbelief theory that has always been central to superhero fiction.

DC's ideas change superhero comics for the better, and their new take on Silver Age realism, especially when juxtaposed with the previous trend of gritty realism, is one of their best. Marvel's ideas make me embarrassed to read superhero fiction.

 

[Sloth7d]

It's always been fact. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong.

Can't beat that logic.

 

[The Leaguer]

It's good that you agree.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

Leaguer, I've always wondered why you went with Zauriel as your avatar. It seems like J'onn would be a better fit for the name. He's really the consummate Justice Leaguer.

 

[The Leaguer]

Because Zauriel is symbolic of the what is easily the best period for the JLA, when the comic represented everything that was great about comic books.

Plus, Zauriel is easily one of the best Leaguers there ever was (second only to Kyle).

 

[droogiedroogie2]

Agreed on the Morrison run being the best ever. I gather from previous posts that you don't think too much of Meltzer so far?

I also have to agree that Kyle in JLA was one of the strongest characters ever. I also really loved Wally in that comic. I was never a huge Zauriel fan, although I liked him. I think my JLA will always be the JLA of that first arc. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, GL/Kyle, Flash/Wally, J'onn J'onnz, and Aquaman. It just seemed like the perfect team and the perfect book in those issues. J'onn has never worked for me except as a team hero, Aquaman was never badass enough to be a superhero in my eyes except in that book, and Kyle and Wally really shone. Superman, of course, is much stronger in a team, as is Wonder Woman. And I've always been partial to Morrison's treatment of Batman, wherever it appears. I'm a Bat-books guy first and foremost, but no writer has ever done him better in a larger-DCU way than Morrison and Waid did.

 

[The Leaguer]

I love Meltzer's Green Arrow arc and Identity Crisis was great, but his JLA is not the JLA.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

Yeah, he's a capable writer, and I get tired of people bashing Identity Crisis and his Green Arrow work, and when you just examine the writing on JLA, it's fine. But he's trying too hard to shake up the League. It should have been rebuilt in its strongest form. I can only imagine that this League will be broken down and reconstructed as the Big Seven in a few years, the way the absurd satellite leagues were.

 

[Zenien]

The new Batwoman is probably the worst and most tasteless example of a story in comic books dealling with a lesbian character that I have read in my life so far. The Story that took place in Gotham Central was GREAT, however how Renee has been written afterwards has been a huge drop off.

No would be my answer, especially if the Batwoman approach (which was fairly high profile) and the degrading quality in which Renee is being written, are indicative of the direction DC is going on this topic.

"That's no Batgirl... That's a Bat-WOMAN!" :Renee oggling Batwoman shortly before almost being killed because she was too distracted by Batwomans curves or something to remember that she was in clear and emmediate danger:

 

[droogiedroogie2]

The new Batwoman is probably the worst and most tasteless example of a story in comic books dealling with a lesbian character that I have read in my life so far. The Story that took place in Gotham Central was GREAT, however how Renee has been written afterwards has been a huge drop off.

No would be my answer, especially if the Batwoman approach (which was fairly high profile) and the degrading quality in which Renee is being written, are indicative of the direction DC is going on this topic.

"That's no Batgirl... That's a Bat-WOMAN!" :Renee oggling Batwoman shortly before almost being killed because she was too distracted by Batwomans curves or something to remember that she was in clear and emmediate danger:

What, lesbians can't appreciate a good-looking woman? I'm sure there's someplace where Arsenal's almost gotten killed in the same way.

 

[Fading]

My opinion is Marvel. You didn't necessarily say this only pertains to the last few years, and let's face it, Marvel's overall comics history has been progressive for the most part. Marvel's always touched real life events, and in ways DC never did until more recently. Take X-Men, the whole point was to deal with racism in a time when it ran rampant. Prof. X was modeled after Mr. Luther King, and his students the mutants were representing black ppl. They were humans viewed as not human because they were born different. Hulk was more on talking about things like nuclear weapons, the monster unleashed when we push science too far, and the arrogance we gain with that power. Spiderman was dealing with a typical nerdy kid who gained powers and his life changed, and was the first comic to break that comics code and deal with a drug related story. Now Marvel has been more laid back lately in being progressive, and most stories have seen kinda gimicky anymore, but they basically built their reputation on pushing real life issues in comics.

DC while pushing it better now always seemed more about fantasy adventure to me. It seemed almost cartoonish in older issues, and more about having fun reading, and a way to escape reality. It wasn't until much later that, atleast in my eyes, they started pushing realism, and even then it just simply doesn't work with some DC characters IMO.

Am surprised with this being in the DC thread that Marvel's almost neck and neck lol, especially with comments like "Marvel zombies" and "DC is better no matter what" in talking about a specific comic direction and not the companies overall quality itself heh. Almost as bad as asking who's strongest in comics and getting 20 pages of "HULK SMASH, Hulk just get angry, STRONGEST there is!!!".

 

[The Batman]

DC.

The fact that they helped create the whole genre, the template of the superhero, then went on to create things like crisis, DKR, Watchman, Kingdom Come, and its obvious who's had more innovations.

 

[SouLeSS]

It isn't usually brought up as frequently, but comic books are facing an impending boom of realism, in their storylines. With this realism, has come a greater appreciation for diversity in characters, both leading and supporting. While Marvel can be applauded for the likes of Storm and Bishop, or Sunfire, Hulkling and Wiccan, is Marvel doing it more for gimmiick (such as Ultimate Colossus) or more as a reflection of the times?

I personally feel that DC has done a far beter job of legitimately approaching minoirty groups (ethnically and socially). The story of Renee Montoya (who is latino no less) coming out to her parents in Gotham Central, was one of the best tales Greg Rucka has ever scribed. Mr.Terrifics ascention in the JSA has made him a more viable character in various DC books, including a leading role in Checkmate. Wonder Woman once dated a black man (Trevor Scott). Most recnetly, the new Batwoman is also a lesbian. More and more, we are begging to see a DC that is steadily relating their books to the current world. Many ethnic and sexual backgrounds are being approached, in a mostly tasteful manner. They even made a former lead character in Gotham Central, into the Spectre (the right hand of God), who is a prominent character and force, in the DC Universe.

Again I turn to Marvel, who isn't far behind, but seem to really have a gimmick/agenda angle in their portrayals. I need only point to Bishop and his current romance of a white woman. Now in the previous paragraph I applauded Wonder Woman for dating Trevor Scott, while I am scrutinizing Bishop's relationship. The woman with which he was involved with, is actually in charge of monitoring the mutants at the Xavier institute. Her role and ethnicity, compared to Bishops position and ethnicity, almost give the story a sort of "forbidden/mandingo fantasy" angle, in which Bishop cold be likened to a slave, that is sleeping with the plantation masters wife. Perhaps I am over stating the correlation, but it does seem that Marvel's approach/agenda, promotes a gimmick ridden view, rather than a genuine point of human interest in diversity.

You realize that there are tons of homosexual and non-white people in the Marvel universe, right? Just because you just started reading DC and Marvel and you've seen more 'colored' (no, not blacks.) doesn't mean Marvel hasn't been doing it for years.

 

[Eros]

DC.

The fact that they helped create the whole genre, the template of the superhero, then went on to create things like crisis, DKR, Watchman, Kingdom Come, and its obvious who's had more innovations.

DC may of created the template, but writers Stan Lee artists Jack kirby,steve ditko, and the other silver-age marvel comics writers modernized and revloutioned the superhero generation. Marvel has had ethnic characters for years, they had the first comic book about a Black character [Black Panther]. everything you see today in the modern superhero, their personal struggle their moral doughts, and their scarifices they must make. You have to thank Marvel comics for all that, because before spider-man,X-men,Hulk, and fantastic 4, superheros were seeminlgy flawless beings.

Nowadays Marvel comics seems to be going forward and not doing things they did in the past. DC comics seems to be trying and bring back silver-age elements, even though the silver-age is over and dead.

 

[XwolverineX]

The new Batwoman is probably the worst and most tasteless example of a story in comic books dealling with a lesbian character that I have read in my life so far. The Story that took place in Gotham Central was GREAT, however how Renee has been written afterwards has been a huge drop off.

No would be my answer, especially if the Batwoman approach (which was fairly high profile) and the degrading quality in which Renee is being written, are indicative of the direction DC is going on this topic.

"That's no Batgirl... That's a Bat-WOMAN!" :Renee oggling Batwoman shortly before almost being killed because she was too distracted by Batwomans curves or something to remember that she was in clear and emmediate danger:

I know why Z is complaining about Lesbian stuff.