Comics Is Franklin Richards the most powerful mutant?

[javon]

I think it's pretty stupid that they made her mutation the ability to tap into the force.

 

[Cyclops]

I heard "lalalala Jean lalaala."

Okay, let's do a little test.

Jean Grey!

Get your hands out of your pants, Brian.

Was I right?

 

[BrianWilly]

What about Jean?

 

[ThePhoenixRises]

Jean is the most powerful

 

[javon]

How so?

 

[November Rain]

Nate Grey would tear Jean a new one...

cable certainly did that to Madelyne when he was born...

Ba dum tissssshhhhh....

 

[Gracen]

Nate grey is numero uno. When he matured and become the shaman near the end of his run he was a just powerhouse. he traveled dimensions, teleported, he created a second sun on another earth to kill that world's evil jean grey. the x-man title was weak until warren ellis gave it direction. I would say shaman nate would hand anyone short of galactus, surfer and beyonder their a$$. Jean and Rogue are 2 and 3. Look at what full potential Rogue did during claremont's x-treme x-men run.

 

[BrianWilly]

Did Nate Grey ever hold the entire universe in his hands?

No?

Did anyone else?

No?

Were any of them specifically stated to be the ultimate mutation? Were any of them specifically stated to be the pinnacle of evolution towards which humanity will eventually become?

No?

Then they're not as powerful as Jean Grey.

 

[HandOfFate]

Did Nate Grey ever hold the entire universe in his hands?

While I agree that a cool feat, it not really Jean's powers she using. It more Jean using the near endless powers of the Phoenix Force to hold the universe in her hands.

While Jean is part of the Phoenix Force, she is not the wellspring of the Phoenix Force.

 

[BrianWilly]

Yes she is.

 

[HandOfFate]

No, she not

 

[BrianWilly]

My evidence comes from four separate writers: Claremont throughout his entire career, Nicieza in X-Men Forever, Morrison in New X-Men, and Pak in Phoenix Endsong. What's yours?

 

[Cyclops]

FRANKLIN RICHARRRRRRRRRRRRDS!!!!!

God damn Phoenix fans...

 

[BrianWilly]

It's 100% relevant to the topic.

 

[Cyclops]

No it's not. Pheh.

 

[BrianWilly]

Yes it is. The topic is whether or not Franklin Richards is the most powerful mutant. If the Phoenix is an aspect of Jean's mutation, as has been stated countless times in canon, then she's a more powerful mutant than him.

 

[HandOfFate]

My evidence comes from four separate writers: Claremont throughout his entire career, Nicieza in X-Men Forever, Morrison in New X-Men, and Pak in Phoenix Endsong. What's yours?

Post it.

While Jean has become one with the Phoenix Force, she is not the creator of the force. The Phoenix Force has been around since before the dawn of the mutli-universe, Jean has not.

Yes it is. The topic is whether or not Franklin Richards is the most powerful mutant. If the Phoenix is an aspect of Jean's mutation, as has been stated countless times in canon, then she's a more powerful mutant than him.

The problem I have with you statement is that Franklin can create a universe without any outside help, can Jean do the samething?

 

[Phoenix342]

The problem I have with you statement is that Franklin can create a universe without any outside help, can Jean do the samething?

yes i think she can because i dont think that the phoenix is seperate from her i think they are one in the same.

 

[HandOfFate]

yes i think she can because i dont think that the phoenix is seperate from her i think they are one in the same.

Yes and no. Jean is part of the Phoenix Force but she is not the creator of the Phoenix Force.

 

[BrianWilly]

Then the Phoenix Force created her. What is the difference, beyond utter semantics? She is intrinsically tied to it by her blood, by her nature, in a way that absolutely no one else is. Saying that she uses "outside help" is like saying Storm uses "outside help" when she controls the weather which is an outside force, or that Magneto needs "outside help" because he manipulates magnetism which is an outside force. Did Iceman the "creator" of ice and temperature? Did Nate Grey "create" the astral plane of which he is a master of? Did Wanda Maximoff "create" the chaos magic that she is tied to so irrevocably?

As for the sources:

Chris Claremont, throughout his entire career, has stated that the Phoenix is an aspect of Jean's own power. That's how the Phoenix started off, after all. At every possible opportunity -- especially within the past few years as the original coccoon recton has become obsolete -- he's been quick to tie the Phoenix intrinsically to Jean. He had the Watcher specifically state that the Phoenix is Jean. He had Rachel Grey specifically say "I'm not the Phoenix, my mom is."

Fabian Nicieza states, in X-Men Forever, that the Phoenix ("The Resurrection Force") is an evolutionary aspect that humanity will eventually reach, and specifically points to Jean as the forerunner and representative of this state. Nicieza, incidentally, was the very first writer to use the term "omega-class mutant," in this very same miniseries, and introduces Jean and Bobby as the first ever confirmed.

As we all know, Grant Morrison builds on that line of thought, firmly establishing the Phoenix as the representation of Jean Grey's omega class potential throughout New X-Men. What's interesting is that he shows the Phoenix Force having a separate voice than Jean, but housing the exact same power.
And, of course, he states that the the Phoenix is the ultimate mutation. Mutation. Not "separate cosmic force." Being the Phoenix is Jean's mutation. There. Canon.

And I suppose I don't even need to mention what Greg Pak did throughout Phoenix: Endsong, tying all of the loose ends together and fixing all the holes left by the original coccoon retcon. If there's a different way to interpret the phrase "I am you" that Jean says to the Force or "You and I are one" that the Force says to Jean, I'd like to hear it.

Oh hey, and I even forgot one writer. Joe Kelly had Jean displaying a flaming Phoenix effect during his late 90s run, and had Jean saying that this was her own power that she was tired of hiding for fear of others' reactions. Her own power. Real flames, real Phoenix effect. Years before Morrison confirmed the return of the Force. I mostly bring this up to shut up all the naysayers who keep saying, "Jean only made pink psychic Phoenixes without the Force in her, she wasn't capable of making the real Phoenix." No she didn't, and yes she was.

Again, that's my evidence. What's yours, beyond "I don't think that's the way it works and I don't like it"?

Oh, and I'm assuming that we're disregarding for the moment the fact that Franklin Richards has no powers right now.

 

[MJB]

Please leave "Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean" out of this argument. 1st off the whole Phoenix/Jean thing is tired and too DAMN convoluted. I could care less about Jean and i hope she and the Phoenix crap stay gone. Marvel can't give it a rest.

The Phoenix was cool and all when it was said to be this really powerful cosmic entity and it used Jean as its host, but now writers have come along and all of a sudden she is the Pheonix, 2nd in power only to GOD??? Give me a phucking break. Stronger then Christ and Satan? Would've given them the spots under GOD.

At anyrate my pick for Strongest mutant is or was Nate Grey. I also have to add that this most powerful contest is pointless, because all these mutants have limitations or more to the point can be beaten by someone else with power depending on power or skill and team work. No one is unbeatable.

 

[BrianWilly]

The Phoenix did not start out as a separate force from Jean. Originally it was an aspect of her own power. And now it has been returned to that template. It may be convoluted (Is it? Really?) but it's canon. You may not like it, but that doesn't stop it from existing.

 

[MJB]

The Phoenix did not start out as a separate force from Jean. Originally it was an aspect of her own power. And now it has been returned to that template. It may be convoluted (Is it? Really?) but it's canon. You may not like it, but that doesn't stop it from existing.

An aspect of her power? Huh? So her power was alive and thriving before she was even born? At the start of the universe no less, well the 616. That's one thing I read. After that Phoenix end Song series Rachel mentioned that her spIrit wasn't connected to the Phoenix force anymore, so she won't be coming back. I guess with all this white hot room crap that the aspect of her power floated in different time lines and whatever. Jeez this Phoenix is silly. PLEASE MARVEL JUST LEAVE IT ALONE AND DON'T ALLOW ANOTHER WRITER TO ADD SOME NEW DAMN TWIST.

 

[November Rain]

Did Nate Grey ever hold the entire universe in his hands?

No?

Did anyone else?

No?

Were any of them specifically stated to be the ultimate mutation? Were any of them specifically stated to be the pinnacle of evolution towards which humanity will eventually become?

No?

Then they're not as powerful as Jean Grey.

if jean grey was the pinnacle of mutation, why would sinister bother trying to create offspring with her dna combine with scott summers.

he would have already found the perfect specimen with Jean.

it makes no sense...

 

[BrianWilly]

An aspect of her power? Huh? So her power was alive and thriving before she was even born? At the start of the universe no less, well the 616.

What's your point?

Magnetism existed before Magneto. Weather existed before Storm. What does the Phoenix Force existing since the beginning of the universe have anything at all to do with whether or not it's her power?

The Phoenix Force is a force, the sum of all sentient life; it's not a person. Of course it could exist before Jean did. Jean is the person that accesses the Phoenix Force, called the Phoenix. Her omega class telepathic/telekinetic mutation gives her an intrinsic, unmatched bond to this natural force which has existed since the beginning of time.

Not rocket science.

That's one thing I read. After that Phoenix end Song series Rachel mentioned that her spIrit wasn't connected to the Phoenix force anymore, so she won't be coming back. I guess with all this white hot room crap that the aspect of her power floated in different time lines and whatever.

Yeah, pretty much. You seem to have a pretty good idea of how it works, after all.

Jeez this Phoenix is silly. PLEASE MARVEL JUST LEAVE IT ALONE AND DON'T ALLOW ANOTHER WRITER TO ADD SOME NEW DAMN TWIST.

And yet!...no matter how much you personally dislike it, it still manages to be canon!

Funny how that works out.