Is It Time to Dissolve the United States?

[Kelly]

yeah, the same birther stuff that ended up the Senate passing a bill just shut everyone up about McCain.

 

[NotFadeAway]

Sooner rather than a later, a time is going to come when we, the citizens of the United States, either band together and take back our country or we roll over and die, making the country as close to an authoritarian government as one republic can get. As far as the Feds go, I hate them, but I'm not freaking out yet. However, I'll freak out if they try and take away the right to bear arms.

I think some kind of civil war is going happen in the States during my lifetime. It's either going to be a war among social classes, or it's going to be the American citizens vs. the Federal Government, and I think that will start by certain states once again trying to leave the Union. The Arizona immigration ordeal is the first example of a States saying piss on the Federal Government, were taking matters into our own hands. More will follow. My only hope there is that the United States Armed Forces would never fire on it's people, that they would be on the citizens side.

Hypothetically, all the states in the Union could leave the Union and then re-unite under a new banner, in essence starting from scratch with the original Constitution as a guide.

 

[Paradoxium]

AAAAANNNDDDDD, then they look at job growth and the economy of some of the Southern States and they choke on their own elitist spit.

Be careful, they might move down to the south for better economic opportunities only to vote in jackasses who will redtape, tax and spend your state to hell.

 

[Kelly]

It's already happening, we are poised to add 2 more electoral votes by the 2012 election....I'm going to assume some of those are far left...

 

[Paradoxium]

Feels like a couple who bust their asses saving up money only to have their kid blow it all on drugs, gambling and a Season 4 Smallvile DVD set.

 

[Kelly]

Possibly, but I have to think that at least in Texas, there was still a pretty big % for Republicans at the Presidential level.

Most of your Texas democrats are moderate at the state level....so you will find MANY that vote Democrat at the state level, but would end up voting for a Republican or a VERY moderate Democrat at the National level.

I know of several people that vote for Gene Green every time, but vote Republican at the Presidential level. I don't mind Gene Green at all, he's a good guy, but he will certainly vote for more spending than I would like.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Sooner rather than a later, a time is going to come when we, the citizens of the United States, either band together and take back our country or we roll over and die, making the country as close to an authoritarian government as one republic can get. As far as the Feds go, I hate them, but I'm not freaking out yet. However, I'll freak out if they try and take away the right to bear arms.

I think some kind of civil war is going happen in the States during my lifetime. It's either going to be a war among social classes, or it's going to be the American citizens vs. the Federal Government, and I think that will start by certain states once again trying to leave the Union. The Arizona immigration ordeal is the first example of a States saying piss on the Federal Government, were taking matters into our own hands. More will follow. My only hope there is that the United States Armed Forces would never fire on it's people, that they would be on the citizens side.

Hypothetically, all the states in the Union could leave the Union and then re-unite under a new banner, in essence starting from scratch with the original Constitution as a guide.

I don't see any states leaving the Union nor do I think that there will be a civil war with bloodshed. With recent elections of candidates supported by the Tea Party being successful, it's already the start of a non-violent revolution by removing Washington insiders with outsiders.

I highly doubt even the staunchest critics of Obama (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh) wants to see a violent uprising like what happened in Eastern Europe 20 years ago in places like Romania, The Former Soviet Union and The Former Yugoslavia. They would rather see supporters of Obama as well as Obama himself voted out in 2012.

 

[Gilpesh]

I don't think I have ever heard a nothern state referred to as not being a real American.

Then you've been sitting around with your fingers in your ears yelling, "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALA!"

Sooner rather than a later, a time is going to come when we, the citizens of the United States, either band together and take back our country or we roll over and die, making the country as close to an authoritarian government as one republic can get. As far as the Feds go, I hate them, but I'm not freaking out yet. However, I'll freak out if they try and take away the right to bear arms.

I think some kind of civil war is going happen in the States during my lifetime. It's either going to be a war among social classes, or it's going to be the American citizens vs. the Federal Government, and I think that will start by certain states once again trying to leave the Union. The Arizona immigration ordeal is the first example of a States saying piss on the Federal Government, were taking matters into our own hands. More will follow. My only hope there is that the United States Armed Forces would never fire on it's people, that they would be on the citizens side.

Hypothetically, all the states in the Union could leave the Union and then re-unite under a new banner, in essence starting from scratch with the original Constitution as a guide.

I see your tinfoil hat has stopped making your screen do weird things long enough so you could post.

 

[Paradoxium]

Possibly, but I have to think that at least in Texas, there was still a pretty big % for Republicans at the Presidential level.

Most of your Texas democrats are moderate at the state level....so you will find MANY that vote Democrat at the state level, but would end up voting for a Republican or a VERY moderate Democrat at the National level.

I know of several people that vote for Gene Green every time, but vote Republican at the Presidential level. I don't mind Gene Green at all, he's a good guy, but he will certainly vote for more spending than I would like.

While not in the north I hear a lot of Cali ppl has been moving little ol' Texas. I imagine the economic conditions hasten this even more. How wonderful would that be t:

 

[Kelly]

While not in the north I hear a lot of Cali ppl has been moving little ol' Texas. I imagine the economic conditions hasten this even more. How wonderful would that be t:

Yeah, I think a lot of Texas schools have actually been holding job fairs in California, Michigan, and Ohio.

 

[Red Mask]

I doubt the U.S.A. will willingly dissolve itself in the near future. For example there's no way Texas would become a separate state because that would subject it to new border restrictions, passport problems, countless ridicule, new import taxes, endless new law changes, etc. Also there's no way any state would risk becoming a separate Christian state because citizens would argue religious freedom, the authority of the Vatican, assignment of state taxes, censorships laws, etc.

 

[Kelly]

I laugh every time I read the title of this thread....

 

[SV Fan]

Just looking at old threads and this popped up and thought I would comment.

I know it won't happen anytime soon but part of me feels that it might be for the best to divide the country into 5 separate countries(something along the lines of)

 

[DACrowe]

It's a terrible pre-1865 idea.

Besides West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, and Kentucky will not want to go with the deep South of Alabama, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Arkansas, etc. I doubt Flordia will want to be part of that either.

Also, there's no way if this happened that Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Alaska and Colorado would want to go along with California, Washington and Oregon.

I think the last hundred years have more than proven Lincoln right in this silly thread.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I think if the union were ever to be dissolved, each state would go its own separate way with rivalries with their border neighbors over natural resources. Just because two states border each other doesnt mean they have much in common.

 

[enterthemadness]

Florida is in the South, so it goes with it.

Um...I think something like that will happen. America splitting up. There's no way that Obama and Romney policies can bring down the debt, fix the dollar. It's hopeless I feel...

I just hope the Sports leagues are around still...Hell, baseball season coming along. I'm starting to not give a **** about politics. I'll pay attention, but baseball is gonna be on my mind 24/7 April-October.

 

[Destructus86]

I'm sure something will happen. No empire lasts forever...and we can't sustain our ever increasing debt for too much longer.

 

[enterthemadness]

I'm sure something will happen. No empire lasts forever...and we can't sustain our ever increasing debt for too much longer.

Do you think the major sports leagues will fall or not? I can't see any falling. Well, NFL and MLB are money makers, NBA and NHL not as much.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

All peoples should have the right to self-determination, but that doesn't mean it would necessarily be a good idea. It's like having the right to divorce - it should be there, but that doesn't mean divorce is the best option.

In terms of dissolving the United States, separatist movements in the form of bourgeois nationalism would not solve anything. If, say, Texas were to secede from the union but otherwise maintain its existing economic system, that would not end its dependence on the other states for trade.

The idea of individual states breaking off and becoming self-sufficient is a reactionary utopia, because you can never escape the world market. So no matter what, Texas would still be profoundly influenced by the surrounding states.

It seems to me that what people really hate is the idea that a bunch of politicians in Washington decide what's good for the entire country. Americans by and large don't like that kind of centralized bureaucracy. Secession might reduce the degree to which that will happen, but could never eliminate it entirely; you'd just have bureaucrats and corporate tycoons in Austin deciding everything.

The only long-term antidote to "Big Government" is workers' self-management.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It's a terrible pre-1865 idea.

Besides West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, and Kentucky will not want to go with the deep South of Alabama, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Arkansas, etc. I doubt Flordia will want to be part of that either.

Also, there's no way if this happened that Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Alaska and Colorado would want to go along with California, Washington and Oregon.

I think the last hundred years have more than proven Lincoln right in this silly thread.

I see it as less Lincoln being right and more along with the times changing.

As technolgies in trade, transportation, and communication progressed, the cultural barriers that divided North, South, and West became less and less prominent. Instead of seeing ourselves as Virginians, Texans, New Yorkers, and Californians like Americans did before the Civil War, we see ourselves as Americans first and foremost and states like Florida, Nevada, and Indiana as places where they happen to live, not their homelands.

Without these advancements that smoothed various cultural and economic differences, we'd probably still have that mentality of regional differences separating us. Regional and cultural differences don't seem very vast when you're constantly exposed to them and can overcome large distances in an incredibly short timespan.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

I see it as less Lincoln being right and more along with the times changing.

As technolgies in trade, transportation, and communication progressed, the cultural barriers that divided North, South, and West became less and less prominent. Instead of seeing ourselves as Virginians, Texans, New Yorkers, and Californians like Americans did before the Civil War, we see ourselves as Americans first and foremost and states like Florida, Nevada, and Indiana as places where they happen to live, not their homelands.

But why stop there? Isn't this an argument against nationalism in general?

 

[hippie_hunter]

But why stop there? Isn't this an argument against nationalism in general?

Not really because even though there are some cultural differences between the North, South, and West, they have some major commonalities that prevents major barriers from being erected. Simple things like speaking a common language (American English), having a similar religious background (Christianity, primarily of the Protestant variety), ethnicity not being a major issue in the United States, and whatnot.

It's a lot harder to unite people when there are things like language, religious, and ethnic barriers or massive geographic barriers like oceans separating people.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Not really because even though there are some cultural differences between the North, South, and West, they have some major commonalities that prevents major barriers from being erected. Simple things like speaking a common language (American English), having a similar religious background (Christianity, primarily of the Protestant variety), ethnicity not being a major issue in the United States, and whatnot.

It's a lot harder to unite people when there are things like language, religious, and ethnic barriers or massive geographic barriers like oceans separating people.

I don't know, there are counter-arguments to a lot of those points. Even when people within a country have barriers in terms of language, religion, or ethnicity, you can still unite them under the banner of a common nationality.

Look at Quebec; Canada originated in the union of English-speaking and French-speaking Canadians. Of course there have always been tensions and separatist movements, but at the same time Canada remains one country.

The United States has historically been a "melting pot" of different cultures and ethnic groups - Europeans, Africans, Hispanics, Asians. Anyone would admit that this has led to huge problems in the past - slavery, segregation, anti-immigrant xenophobia, race riots. But through it all, the country managed to stay united.

Given these objective situations, I don't see why it's any less realistic to say that one day we might get rid of the border dividing, say, the USA and Canada. The only thing blocking it in people's minds would be stale nationalist ideas, which don't have much to do with the way the world really works in a globalized economy.

 

[DACrowe]

I see it as less Lincoln being right and more along with the times changing.

As technolgies in trade, transportation, and communication progressed, the cultural barriers that divided North, South, and West became less and less prominent. Instead of seeing ourselves as Virginians, Texans, New Yorkers, and Californians like Americans did before the Civil War, we see ourselves as Americans first and foremost and states like Florida, Nevada, and Indiana as places where they happen to live, not their homelands.

Without these advancements that smoothed various cultural and economic differences, we'd probably still have that mentality of regional differences separating us. Regional and cultural differences don't seem very vast when you're constantly exposed to them and can overcome large distances in an incredibly short timespan.

Yes, the Industrial Revolution connected the states and territories, but the ability for that to flourish in this country sprang from one single nation instead of a series of varyingly successful autonomous states. The reason the US was able to emerge as the definitive superpower of the 20th century because it was one single country separated from the infighting we saw in Europe or even the Middle East today. The fact that union remained in tact and did not break off into many states--which would have been inevitable if the Confederacy succeeded in their secession--made the US able to grow and grow its economy and infrastructure in an interconnected way despite regional disparities (the Northeast vs. the Deep South, vs. the "wild" West, etc.)

Also you point out that most Americans called themselves "Americans" first and "Virginians second." This is because of the Civil War. Before the war, people said "The United States are." After the war, it became, "The United States is..." Lincoln squashed that idea of state supremacy. It still exists in small minorities in Texas, Alaska, midwest militias, Waco-styled cults, etc. but it is incredibly small and unrealistic.

To think that the US is going to collapse because of debt in the next 20 years, as some in this thread do, is ridiculous.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Seems fairly inevitable that Canada and the US will one day be one country. Or part of a political union. You could argue they already are in many ways. Shared history, common language, and a common defense. Mexico is already working on it.