Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 2

[Herolee10]

Thats so true. People just keep complain about Superman without even seeing JL yet. Those people will never be happy with whatever happens with Superman in JL.

Zac knew this BS would happen with all these rumours about JL, reshoots and Joss taking over etc because thats why he made the announcement.

Superman has never got shaft in these film. People are just pissy because Zac did something different with him then others have done on film before.

They know exactly what they are doing with JL. They will eventually release posters with Supes and the JL together it just wont be for awhile. Ive already seen the love for Superman from the cast and crew of JL and the release of statues and figurines and other Superman JL products.

Superman is not getting the shaft with JL. There is a story to be told and just because he was killed in BVS doesnt mean he gets shafted in JL. They are building to big reveal with Superman in JL and the movie will show the world that Superman is very well loved and needed in JL.

This is the same team that killed Superman in his second film after allowing the studio to cut away most of his character arc scenes in the theatrical cut. Also, even in the Ultimate Cut, I've never seen a supposed main protagonist that had such little dialogue for the entire duration of the film.

Plus, because of him being killed in BvS, this is what prevents him from having a active role in the formation of the JL. Not to mention, this will force him to miss out on a good chunk of the film as well. Superman should have been the one giving the inspirational speeches to the team as he does in the comics, but that's being given to batman (similar to how the X-Men leadership role was given to Wolverine from Cyclops).

Also, some of us don't really want a Superman that's a plot point where his only role is just to come back and fight off some CGI villain. We actually want a character arc for Superman where he feels like a character that's going through development.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

I do feel where you're coming from, but I think we'll get a good story arc and character moments for Superman, as good as you could expect one character to get in an ensemble film.

I agree that some X-Men characters, specifically Cyclops, got shafted pretty bad to make room for more Wolverine, but I don't see that happening in this film series. I don't see Affleck's Batman being that much more unevenly popular compared to the other actors/characters as Jackman's Wolverine. I think in the ensemble films, all the main characters will get a pretty even amount of focus.


But who knows, I could be wrong. You seem too focused on it though. Lighten up, it's the first Justice League movie. Try to get excited. I think they heard loud and clear all the criticisms of BvS, probably to the point where the detractors will get closer to the kinda movie they want, and those who love BvS will get less of the kinda things they loved about it

 

[wnjcwjkk]

I'm sure anything will be better than "I saw some people walking around in Superman T-Shirts, so his popularity is on an upswing".

I couldn't care less about arguing over it, but I also see a lot of Superman shirts in public. Not saying it has anything to do with the films, I mean it's a popular symbol and of course guys want to advertise themselves as Superman, but it's something I've noticed more of, over the past several years since MoS. As a fan of something, it's the kind of thing you take note of

 

[idiot09]

I couldn't care less about arguing over it, but I also see a lot of Superman shirts in public. Not saying it has anything to do with the films, I mean it's a popular symbol and of course guys want to advertise themselves as Superman, but it's something I've noticed more of, over the past several years since MoS. As a fan of something, it's the kind of thing you take note of

Same here. Also all the Batman shirts I notice are the Burton Batsymbol ones. Fwiw

 

[wnjcwjkk]

IMO SvB should've been the third movie in the MOS trilogy. That way you could've showcased the impact Superman had on this world before he died.

Or BvS could've been expanded into two films to make a MoS trilogy, featuring Batman and Superman's stories, to expand on both, Batman's hopeless and Redemption and rediscovering his purpose, and Superman's relationship to humanity from both points of view. Make it into a 4 part story, similar to the big comic events like Dark Knight Returns or Superman For All Seasons

 

[Flint Marko]

He needed a makeover and now, he's the most hyped part of the Justice League right now. Even more than Batman.

Again, what is this based on? Did Superman just have a wildly successful solo movie that blew away box office expectations, or was that Wonder Woman? Are there any more hotly anticipated Superman solo and spin-off films coming out with film-makers already attached, or is that Batman?

How about that poll on buzzfeed which 100,000 people responded to; the question was which DCEU hero is your favorite, and Superman came comfortably in dead last with 6% of the vote. 6 freaking percent. That's bad. Try to discredit this poll all you'd like, but 100,000 people is enough to comfortably gauge the general audience. Or how about the underwhelming box office receipts to both recent Superman films? See how this claim doesn't really hold up?

 

[metaphysician]

I don't understand the complaint that Superman was barely a character. He just there to reacted to the people talking n events happened.

???

. . .that is *exactly* the complaint, that he was just there to react to people and events, rather than to actually be a character in his own right, with his own goals and desires and motivations. Note that "but the plot justifies this" is no excuse, someone decided to write every single scene that so reduced him.

 

[Tra-El]

I couldn't care less about arguing over it, but I also see a lot of Superman shirts in public. Not saying it has anything to do with the films, I mean it's a popular symbol and of course guys want to advertise themselves as Superman, but it's something I've noticed more of, over the past several years since MoS. As a fan of something, it's the kind of thing you take note of

Superman is fine and is as popular as ever, regardless of the fluctuation of new hero's like Deadpool that are bound to bring in new fanbase's. Superman could EASILY rise to the top just as fast as say...Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman. The longer films in the DCEU are advertised to the public eye, the more traction it gains and Superman is big part of that. The DCEU is set up as a redemption superhero story for each individual character. Superman's is coming and it's going to be glorious.

 

[Superchan]

A lot of people here are just a bunch of drama queens and get caught up in the echo chamber of the internet.

Some people might be but that doesn't mean that others don't feel legitimately dissatisfied with what they've got thus far.

Superman seems to be more popular now then ever. I don't know if others are noticing the same thing but I'm seeing a whole lot more shirts and other things out in public in relation to superman. Even seems to have surpassed batman lately. They must be doing something right.

Based on what, the number of Superman t-shirts that you've seen? Seriously?
Superman might not be at the top of the food chain like he used to be but he's always been extremely popular and there is no evidence of the DCEU version adding to that popularity.

People are just pissy because Zac did something different with him then others have done on film before.

Trying something new isn't the problem but trying something new and (IMO) failing is.Also I don't see much difference between Snyder's mopey/dialogue challenged superman and Bryan Singer's bastardized CR's version so I would hardly call his version unique.

 

[misslane38]

Again, what is this based on? Did Superman just have a wildly successful solo movie that blew away box office expectations, or was that Wonder Woman? Are there any more hotly anticipated Superman solo and spin-off films coming out with film-makers already attached, or is that Batman?

It's fair to say that Wonder Woman is riding high at the moment. Nonetheless, Batman's been more popular than Superman for decades. Batman has a more popular supporting cast, so the spin offs speak to their popularity more so than Batman's. Just because the fate of Superman's movies is unknown doesn't mean that there aren't plans or hopes to make them. The logistics are different for him at the moment.

How about that poll on buzzfeed which 100,000 people responded to; the question was which DCEU hero is your favorite, and Superman came comfortably in dead last with 6% of the vote. 6 freaking percent. That's bad. Try to discredit this poll all you'd like, but 100,000 people is enough to comfortably gauge the general audience. Or how about the underwhelming box office receipts to both recent Superman films? See how this claim doesn't really hold up?

Those rankings from Buzzfeed's visitors (demographics here) make sense to me and seem fair; although the question was a little different in that it asked who the "best" hero was and not who was your favorite. The poll was also done in the midst of Wonder Woman's success and Batman has almost always been more popular than Superman. I think the biggest hurdle for Superman is how iconic he is. With Wonder Woman, audiences have little to miss or to compare her to, and Batman hasn't had one actor who really stood out. Meanwhile, Christopher Reeve was like Gal's Wonder Woman -- a trail blazer -- but in his case it was cinematic superheroes, and his personal tragedy only heightened people's affection and admiration for him to the point that most would pale in comparison; hence results like this:

source​

I think a poll like Buzzfeed's and others are a bit difficult to untangle, too. Personally, I love each one of the characters, so it would have been difficult for me to have made a choice, especially between Wonder Woman and Superman. When forced to make an either/or decision like that -- a Sophie's choice, so to speak -- it can give the wrong impression of disparity.

 

[Trevor]

Again, what is this based on? Did Superman just have a wildly successful solo movie that blew away box office expectations, or was that Wonder Woman? Are there any more hotly anticipated Superman solo and spin-off films coming out with film-makers already attached, or is that Batman?

How about that poll on buzzfeed which 100,000 people responded to; the question was which DCEU hero is your favorite, and Superman came comfortably in dead last with 6% of the vote. 6 freaking percent. That's bad. Try to discredit this poll all you'd like, but 100,000 people is enough to comfortably gauge the general audience. Or how about the underwhelming box office receipts to both recent Superman films? See how this claim doesn't really hold up?

Man of Steel performed almost twice as much (1.7 times) as Superman Returns worldwide despite mixed response. It is one of the most successful reboots. Says a lot about how much people around the world enjoyed this new interpretation AND the film unlike the CLASSIC Christopher Reeve's version released in 2006.

Hell, he barely has had "good" films even to begin with! S1, S2 and MOS. That's it! Superman 3 and 4 starring Christopher Reeve himself are among the WORST films ever made!

For instance, when Superman Returns was released, everybody was making fun of the film in my country, even the press, and was rooting for a local Superhero film. And I was just 10 back then with NO access to internet and I wasn't surprised either even though I was a fan of him and enjoyed STAS a lot (which has a Superman who is as emotional and serious as Henry Cavill's.) He was in such a bad situation when it came to live-action films considering the absurdity of his powers and also films.

Regarding him not getting a sequel yet, it is probably because not many directors are interested to tackle him. How many directors rejected Man of Steel before Zack finally joined again? Even George Miller called him boring last year!

And surprisingly, even with Geoff Johns as the Creative Head of DCEU, it isn't happening yet! Really makes you think why! If Zack said he is willing to direct a 4th film with Superman, WB would probably be jumping in joy and greenlit the project. Because Superman sells with him despite the vocal minority that is present on the internet.

And random internet polls on the internet like BuzzFeed as proof? Heh. Talk about desperation when there's box-office performance of his solo film that is a much bigger and true representation of the character's popularity worldwide.

Like I said, he is the most awaited part of Justice League. If he is well-received by the vocal minority as well and still doesn't get a sequel, well, one thing would be clear for sure like I just said above!

 

[Superchan]

although the question was a little different in that it asked who the "best" hero was and not who was your favorite.

People rarely make such distinctions and I believe that even if the question was who is your favorite I truly doubt that Snyder's superman would anywhere but the bottom

Batman has almost always been more popular than Superman.

Wrong, throughout their almost 80 yr history superman's been the more popular character. From 1938 until about 1989 superman was far, FAR more popular than batman to the point that a nothing character like lois lane was outselling the bat.
from 1989 until now I would say that batman is arguably more popular.

I think the biggest hurdle for Superman is how iconic he is.

Disagree completely, the biggest hurdle for superman is the handling of the character by a studio that is bound and determined to turn him into some dark, brooding, emo hero to "fit the times" or some nonsense like that, hence they pass him off to directors like Singer who turned superman into a creepy, mopey, absentee father and when that didn't work they gave the him to Zack Snyder - a director who by that time hasn't had a hit for years and who has admitted to not being enamored with the character - to attempt some quasi-deconstruction of the character before completing it's construction.
The fact remains that superman hasn't had a universally acclaimed movie (or even an acclaimed movie in general) since 1981 and that fact alone would put a dent in any character's popularity yet the character's popularity continues to endure thanks to it's iconic status.

 

[Tra-El]

Man of Steel 2 is in the same boat as Nightwing. McKay just said that it wasn't on the slate because in some instances, they need to get the film RIGHT. Same with Man of Steel 2. They are determined to get the next Superman film right and need to take their time. I have a great feeling that Superman is going to be in a RIPE place for the taking after JL. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

 

[BH/HHH]

Man of Steel 2 is in the same boat as Nightwing. McKay just said that it wasn't on the slate because in some instances, they need to get the film RIGHT. Same with Man of Steel 2. They are determined to get the next Superman film right and need to take their time. I have a great feeling that Superman is going to be in a RIPE place for the taking after JL. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

Seconded

 

[Trevor]

Man of Steel 2 is in the same boat as Nightwing. McKay just said that it wasn't on the slate because in some instances, they need to get the film RIGHT. Same with Man of Steel 2. They are determined to get the next Superman film right and need to take their time. I have a great feeling that Superman is going to be in a RIPE place for the taking after JL. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

And if it happens, I hope Denis Villeneuve is the director.

 

[Superchan]

Man of Steel performed almost twice as much (1.7 times) as Superman Returns worldwide despite mixed response. It is one of the most successful reboots. Says a lot about how much people around the world enjoyed this new interpretation AND the film unlike the CLASSIC Christopher Reeve's version released in 2006.

First of all SR failed not because people weren't interesting in a Chris reeve-esque superman but rather because the film was dull and while it was in some quasi-continuity with the CR superman films the superman that Singer presented was a cardboard cutup of the charismatic, intelligent superman that Donner gave the world in 1978. So saying that MOS was a big hit because it did better than SR is like saying Saddam Hussien was a good guy because he was better than Hilter

Hell, he barely has had "good" films even to begin with! S1, S2 and MOS. That's it! Superman 3 and 4 starring Christopher Reeve himself are among the WORST films ever made!

I agree, except with MOS being a "good film".

Regarding him not getting a sequel yet, it is probably because not many directors are interested to tackle him. How many directors rejected Man of Steel before Zack finally joined again? Even George Miller called him boring last year!

Yeah you Really need to rethink that statement because JJ Abrahams, Bayona, Arafonosky, Vaughn, Payton Reed, Jordan Vogt-Roberts and DCEU directors like Jenkins and Ayer all expressed varying degrees interest in making a superman movie.

And surprisingly, even with Geoff Johns as the Creative Head of DCEU, it isn't happening yet! Really makes you think why!

Nothing's happened yet! Not for superman, batman or any other character. All we got was a list a of movies they're working on and no dates. Apart from Aquaman, nothing's concrete with the DCEU until maybe JL is out and successful.

If Zack said he is willing to direct a 4th film with Superman, WB would probably be jumping in joy and greenlit the project. Because Superman sells with him despite the vocal minority that is present on the internet.

Yeah I think you need to take it down an notch, that "vocal minority" killed MOS and BvS's legs at the box office.
Snyder has thus far produced 2 under-performing movies for them and it's highly possible that Superman didn't get a proper solo sequel because Snyder failed to make a movie that satisfied the masses and so they added Batman and even that didn't work hence the massive course corrections that followed.

And random internet polls on the internet like BuzzFeed as proof? Heh. Talk about desperation when there's box-office performance of his solo film that is a much bigger and true representation of the character's popularity worldwide.

Agreed, the b.o. performance is a much better measure and both MOS and BvS underperformed massively after opening massively due to poor (in MOS's case) and laughable (in BvS's case) multipliers at the box office.

Like I said, he is the most awaited part of Justice League. If he is well-received by the vocal minority as well and still doesn't get a sequel, well, one thing would be clear for sure like I just said above!

based on what?

 

[misslane38]

People rarely make such distinctions and I believe that even if the question was who is your favorite I truly doubt that Snyder's superman would anywhere but the bottom

I don't think we can know any of that for sure.

Wrong, throughout their almost 80 yr history superman's been the more popular character. From 1938 until about 1989 superman was far, FAR more popular than batman to the point that a nothing character like lois lane was outselling the bat.

That says something about Lois Lane, not Superman. How do you know what you know about Superman's popularity during the cited time period?

from 1989 until now I would say that batman is arguably more popular.

Right, which is the context in which these polls and this discussion is taking place.

The fact remains that superman hasn't had a universally acclaimed movie (or even an acclaimed movie in general) since 1981 and that fact alone would put a dent in any character's popularity yet the character's popularity continues to endure thanks to it's iconic status.

So how can one get an accurate measure of popularity based on a film or films alone, if iconic status can have so much influence? How many other factors could be at play? For example, in our changing society, is the figure of a white, heterosexual, cis man who can appear to represent America and evokes Judeo-Christian themes going to resonate as well with audiences as it did decades ago?

 

[Trevor]

First of all SR failed not because people weren't interesting in a Chris reeve-esque superman but rather because the film was dull and while it was in some quasi-continuity with the CR superman films the superman that Singer presented was a cardboard cutup of the charismatic, intelligent superman that Donner gave the world in 1978. So saying that MOS was a big hit because it did better than SR is like saying Saddam Hussien was a good guy because he was better than Hilter





I agree, except with MOS being a "good film".




Yeah you Really need to rethink that statement because JJ Abrahams, Bayona, Arafonosky, Vaughn, Payton Reed, Jordan Vogt-Roberts and DCEU directors like Jenkins and Ayer all expressed varying degrees interest in making a superman movie.



Nothing's happened yet! Not for superman, batman or any other character. All we got was a list a of movies they're working on and no dates. Apart from Aquaman, nothing's concrete with the DCEU until maybe JL is out and successful.



Yeah I think you need to take it down an notch, that "vocal minority" killed MOS and BvS's legs at the box office.
Snyder has thus far produced 2 under-performing movies for them and it's highly possible that Superman didn't get a proper solo sequel because Snyder failed to make a movie that satisfied the masses and so they added Batman and even that didn't work hence the massive course corrections that followed.



Agreed, the b.o. performance is a much better measure and both MOS and BvS underperformed massively after opening massively due to poor (in MOS's case) and laughable (in BvS's case) multipliers at the box office.



based on what?

I love this Superman, especially after watching BVS UC, so I am not going to complain about the character, but you're probably right on many things!

 

[Tra-El]

???

. . .that is *exactly* the complaint, that he was just there to react to people and events, rather than to actually be a character in his own right, with his own goals and desires and motivations. Note that "but the plot justifies this" is no excuse, someone decided to write every single scene that so reduced him.

This "not an actual character" charade is nonsense. Superman is in the middle of his arc that started with MoS. Fans b$^tched and moaned about how there was no character development in Man of Steel and how he needed to be fleshed out more as a character. BvS gave us that and is an extension of his character development that is still ongoing for a film that doesn't come out until November. Superman is in the middle of one big arc that just so happens to connect every other world-building intangible. It's quite clear that Clark has his own goals, desires and motivations or else the conversations that took place with Ma Kent, Jonathan, Lois, and Perry White would have never been written. They are there for a reason. The plot truly justifies the drama further when it comes to introducing new characters like Lex Luthor, Batman and Bruce Wayne. Why most refuse to acknowledge that is baffling. The connection that ties together each individual thread leads back to not only Superman, but how the world ultimately reacts and adjusts to bigger and badder threats. Justice League is going to be the knot that tightly holds everything into place and Superman has a big part in that.

 

[BH/HHH]

This "not an actual character" charade is nonsense. Superman is in the middle of his arc that started with MoS. Fans b$^tched and moaned about how there was no character development in Man of Steel and how he needed to be fleshed out more as a character. BvS gave us that and is an extension of his character development that is still ongoing for a film that doesn't come out until November. Superman is in the middle of one big arc that just so happens to connect every other world-building intangible. It's quite clear that Clark has his own goals, desires and motivations or else the conversations that took place with Ma Kent, Jonathan, Lois, and Perry White would have never been written. They are there for a reason. The plot truly justifies the drama further when it comes to introducing new characters like Lex Luthor, Batman and Bruce Wayne. Why most refuse to acknowledge that is baffling. The connection that ties together each individual thread leads back to not only Superman, but how the world ultimately reacts and adjusts to bigger and badder threats. Justice League is going to be the knot that tightly holds everything into place and Superman has a big part in that.

Well said

 

[The Batman]

I love this Superman, especially after watching BVS UC

Thank you for summing up the true rationale behind these "Superman's more popular than ever" posts.

BTW, saying people prefer Snyder Supes to Donner's because MOS did better than SR is about as logical as me saying that people prefer Daniel Craig's James Bond to Sean Connery's because Casino Royale did better than Die Another Day.

 

[Tra-El]

Arguing over popularity of a legendary pop culture icon and the different reputations one character ultimately portrays results in empty debates and is completely un-calculable. Having multiple characterizations that span across many entertainment mediums at the same time can only mean good things for a generational character that everybody recognizes. As long as Superman continues to remain in the public consciousness, whether it be The DCEU Cinematic version, Supergirl , Animation or the newly formed TV series "Krypton", the character will always shine in popularity. Superman's fanbase is set in stone. The love;hate relationship comes with the territory of being iconic.

 

[BH/HHH]

Arguing over popularity of a legendary pop culture icon and the different reputations one character ultimately portrays results in empty debates and is completely un-calculable. Having multiple characterizations that span across many entertainment mediums at the same time can only mean good things for a generational character that everybody recognizes. As long as Superman continues to remain in the public consciousness, whether it be The DCEU Cinematic version, Supergirl , Animation or the newly formed TV series "Krypton", the character will always shine in popularity. Superman's fanbase is set in stone. The love;hate relationship comes with the territory of being iconic.

You're on a role today mate, great post again.

 

[The Batman]

Arguing over popularity of a legendary pop culture icon and the different reputations one character ultimately portrays results in empty debates and is completely un-calculable.

If you feel that way...you don't have to participate in them. Simple as that.

Also....completely un-calculable? LOL.

You know what...that's unfair. Maybe I'd believe that too if the only metric I used to justify a characters popularity was whether or not I saw people walking around wearing his T Shirt.

 

[Tra-El]

If you feel that way...you don't have to participate in them. Simple as that.

Thanks for making this clear. I don't know where I'd be without your guidance. Though, if you feel that way about participation points then you simply don't have to respond to me. Simple as that.

You know what...that's unfair. Maybe I'd believe that too if the only metric I used to justify a characters popularity was whether or not I saw people walking around wearing his T Shirt.

You'd have a point if that was the only thing that was used as a comparison but it wasn't givin the fact I cited other 'metrics' such as cinema, animation and television, something the character is highly touted and recognizable in. If networks, studios and entertainment platforms keep the character affiliated as part of their brand as something to sell then what other way is there to calculate popularity? The moment Superman vanish's is the moment where popularity credentials could be debated in hot water but until then, I think he's doing just fine.