Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 2

[IncognitoWalrus]

Correct. A great script, leading to a great movie, can do wonders for the character.

Yep. In a perfect world, the DCEU will embrace the nature of Superman. It did incredible things for Wonder Woman. Audiences respond to characters who are written to be likable. People already like Cap even though he's way more of a boy scout than Cavill's Supes.

 

[All-Father]

Yep. In a perfect world, the DCEU will embrace the nature of Superman. It did incredible things for Wonder Woman. Audiences respond to characters who are written to be likable. People already like Cap even though he's way more of a boy scout than Cavill's Supes.

Yeah, that's the way to go, imho.

 

[Herolee10]

Films that are successful by the metrics you mention are more important and influential to less established properties. Batman has been around for so long and been so successful in ebbs and flows over the decades that successes and failures don't affect him as much. There is a base and and brand loyalty there. The same is true for Superman, I believe. Characters like Iron Man, Captain America, and Wonder Woman had been around for awhile too, but none had a live action portrayal on the big screen until recently. The effect of those films being critically and financially successful appears to have more of an impact as a result.

Well in regards to our present, I honestly don't think that Superman is doing well when it comes to his popularity. Now, a lot more people may be familiar with superman, but I don't think that it necessarily means that he's more popular than a lot of the heroes that we've been getting on film as of late.

The last time that the character of Superman had a film that was both critically and financially successful was back in the 80's. Ever since then, filmmakers and studios have failed to get him right on both fronts.

If the DCEU Superman had been as successful as Snyder and company had hoped for, I guarantee you that Superman would have been placed at the forefront of everything that is the DCEU. Just look at how prominent Wonder Woman is being featured in JL's marketing as a result of her solo film's success.

Most people agree that Superman was "broken" in the DCEU and needs to be revived in a different way for this film.

This video, although made as a spoof, pretty much gives an accurate portrayal of how I feel a lot of people feel about Henry's Superman after BvS.

[YT]HTPpaQGB20[/YT]

I think he is. Why don't you think so?

If you're referring to the real world, then here's why.

Back when BvS was still being promoted, there were like several videos of people asking who they would prefer over Batman and Superman...and of course most people said Batman. The Dark Knight has been viewed as the more popular one over the man of steel for a few decades, hence why he has been prominently featured in the media in several different ways.

And now that Wonder Woman has been a big hit, she's pretty much been positioned at the forefront of the DCEU as well.

I have yet to see an scenario where a large group of people actually prefer the DCEU version of Superman over any hero period. Anyone that I've seen showing love for Henry's Superman are pretty much in a minority group.

 

[BH/HHH]

Popularity is not merely measured by cinematic box office, Spider-Man sells more merchandise than any other superhero by a landslide but his movies aren't the top grossing CBMs are they? You can't just look at obe mecium, Superman is certainly still a hugely popular character even if his last films haven't done as big numbers wise than others.

The fact they keep churning out material even just with the S logo proves that he's still a popular character who sells. The way some people act on here it's like he's Swamp a Thing or someone.

 

[Micromind]

Popularity is not merely measured by cinematic box office, Spider-Man sells more merchandise than any other superhero by a landslide but his movies aren't the top grossing CBMs are they? You can't just look at obe mecium, Superman is certainly still a hugely popular character even if his last films haven't done as big numbers wise than others.

The fact they keep churning out material even just with the S logo proves that he's still a popular character who sells. The way some people act on here it's like he's Swamp a Thing or someone.

Exactly.

 

[BH/HHH]

Exactly.

Superman is my number one character in anything ever but right now I'm embarrassed by many other Superman fans. They're coming across as spoilt brats. People's whose favourites are other characters would love to be in our shoes.

 

[Tra-El]

The fact they keep churning out material even just with the S logo proves that he's still a popular character who sells. The way some people act on here it's like he's Swamp a Thing or someone.

 

[Tra-El]

Superman is my number one character in anything ever but right now I'm embarrassed by many other Superman fans. They're coming across as spoilt brats. People's whose favourites are other characters would love to be in our shoes.

Agreed, but this does NOT surprise me in the slightest. You think this simple and ridiculous shaft thread is bad? I've had front row seats on message boards and forums pertaining to the comics and it was the most downright embarrassing thing I've ever seen. I mean FULL OUT BRAWLS having one side of Superman fans telling other Superman fans that they're not real fans because they liked one particular version over the other. It's downright nonsense in a time where being a Superman fan has virtually never been better in quite some time. The difficulty of Superman is what makes him so unbelievably awesome to me and the single most accurate piece of dialogue came from Zack Snyder's movie: "Is it really surprising that the most powerful man in the world is a figure for controversy?"

 

[BH/HHH]

Agreed, but this does NOT surprise me in the slightest. You think this simple and ridiculous shaft thread is bad? I've had front row seats on message boards and forums pertaining to the comics and it was the most downright embarrassing thing I've ever seen. I mean FULL OUT BRAWLS having one side of Superman fans telling other Superman fans that they're not real fans because they liked one particular version over the other. It's downright nonsense in a time where being a Superman fan has virtually never been better in quite some time. The difficulty of Superman is what makes him so unbelievably awesome to me and the single most accurate piece of dialogue came from Zack Snyder's movie: "Is it really surprising that the most powerful man in the world is a figure for controversy?"

 

[misslane38]

Well in regards to our present, I honestly don't think that Superman is doing well when it comes to his popularity. Now, a lot more people may be familiar with superman, but I don't think that it necessarily means that he's more popular than a lot of the heroes that we've been getting on film as of late.

The last time that the character of Superman had a film that was both critically and financially successful was back in the 80's. Ever since then, filmmakers and studios have failed to get him right on both fronts.

If the DCEU Superman had been as successful as Snyder and company had hoped for, I guarantee you that Superman would have been placed at the forefront of everything that is the DCEU. Just look at how prominent Wonder Woman is being featured in JL's marketing as a result of her solo film's success.

Most people agree that Superman was "broken" in the DCEU and needs to be revived in a different way for this film.

So you are just going to ignore everything I said, aren't you? The idea I shared was that characters who were less familiar to people, because they'd never had live action films, can seem like they are more popular as a result of their films, but they're only more popular than their former selves. Batman, for example, is still one of the most popular along Spider-Man who himself remained popular even though the Amazing Spider Man movies weren't unanimously adored. Some characters like Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man are so iconic that perceived failures and successes don't move the dial as much on their popularity because they've already earned people's love and interest from so many projects over so many years.

It's even sillier to point to the contrast in Superman and Wonder Woman's marketing presence for the JL movie. There's a very legitimate reason for Superman's minimal presence. He's dead. The effect of this marketing? Well, from what I can tell, it's made people more interested in Superman, not less.

And now that Wonder Woman has been a big hit, she's pretty much been positioned at the forefront of the DCEU as well.

I have yet to see an scenario where a large group of people actually prefer the DCEU version of Superman over any hero period. Anyone that I've seen showing love for Henry's Superman are pretty much in a minority group.

I know this may surprise you, herolee, but sometimes people can love more than one thing at once and to do so equally. They don't think in terms of preference or treat everything like it's some popularity or dick measuring contest.

 

[Broseph44]

So this thread is basically just a complaining thread day in and day out for specifically Herolee about Superman? It just seems that's all it is really. Instead of discussing Superman in the Superman thread we have this.

 

[Bren]

Every thread gets beaten to death, this one is no different.
Certainly the topic imo (and based on how long this one has gone, not just me) is a very good debatable and/or contentious one.

I personally feel that yes, for the first ever live action JL film, Superman not being (actively) involved involved in the creation of the JL is a bit of a shafting.

Yes, I might end up liking/loving what they do eventually. But as to right now, with my opinion of MOS (acceptable) and BvS (poor), I'm not too keen on the approach they have taken thus far.

Would you prefer I 'clutter' the Superman thread with my opinion when there is a perfectly applicable thread for it?

Or you'd prefer such opinions to be silenced?

 

[Broseph44]

Just seems sometimes Herolee disregards others when they're trying to debate with him.

 

[Bren]

I am not eloquent enough to explain my mild distaste for the approach they've taken so far.

misslane is very good at explaining how all the ingredients are present and accounted for. I just feel sometimes she forgets that some people prefer the salt added while cooking the stew, while others spice the stew afterwards. Some want more, some less. So while the salt is there, the flavour is still 'wrong' for them.

However, she is very good at explaining her own viewpoints.

 

[Broseph44]

I am not eloquent enough to explain my mild distaste for the approach they've taken so far.

misslane is very good at explaining how all the ingredients are present and accounted for. I just feel sometimes she forgets that some people prefer the salt added while cooking the stew, while others spice the stew afterwards. Some want more, some less. So while the salt is there, the flavour is still 'wrong' for them.

However, she is very good at explaining her own viewpoints.

Trust me, I get all that Just think Herolee sometimes is so focused on his own dislikes and problems with all this that he doesn't bother to understand others who disagree.

 

[Herolee10]

It's not that I intentionally disregard how others feel about this take on Superman. It's more of a case where I just can't wrap my head around their viewpoints.

I mean I have really tried to understand others when they say that not having superman present in anything for the promotion of this movie is a good thing. And to be fair, I have actually come to somewhat understand, if not agree, with how it might be better not to show any superman footage at least.

I have so tried to understand the excitement of just seeing superman come back just to kick some ass.

But at the end of the day, I just can't understand those viewpoints at all. It's not that I'm trying to mock the people who have those viewpoints but I just can't understand or agree with why people would be content with those options.

I mean, is really asking for a superman film where he has some mini arc of his own and where he has more to do other than show up for a action sequence in the end really asking for that much? Is asking to see him have some meaningful interactions with this group as opposed to having to wait for a few more years really that demanding?

Honestly, after the whole fiasco with BvS, I would have thought that everyone would want A LOT more for the character in this film.

 

[Broseph44]

It's not that I intentionally disregard how others feel about this take on Superman. It's more of a case where I just can't wrap my head around their viewpoints.

I mean I have really tried to understand others when they say that not having superman present in anything for the promotion of this movie is a good thing. And to be fair, I have actually come to somewhat understand, if not agree, with how it might be better not to show any superman footage at least.

I have so tried to understand the excitement of just seeing superman come back just to kick some ass.

But at the end of the day, I just can't understand those viewpoints at all. It's not that I'm trying to mock the people who have those viewpoints but I just can't understand or agree with why people would be content with those options.

I mean, is really asking for a superman film where he has some mini arc of his own and where he has more to do other than show up for a action sequence in the end really asking for that much? Is asking to see him have some meaningful interactions with this group as opposed to having to wait for a few more years really that demanding?

Honestly, after the whole fiasco with BvS, I would have thought that everyone would want A LOT more for the character in this film.

People have different opinions and preferences, whether they be in the majority or minority. It's just how it is. You make it sound like there is something wrong with people who are enjoying this Superman and have no issues.

Like the way you and others feel or perceive it is the correct way, and that they should listen to what you say and see the light or something and agree with you. Why is it so hard to wrap your head around people/fans enjoying different things.

For example I was really disappointed with SM: Homecoming and have a lot of issues with it, apparently I am in the minority. As the majority love the film and the things I considered problems. But I'm not baffled by that, I can wrap my head around people enjoying it. I don't think they need some sort of enlightenment and should dislike it or want it to be better just because I and some others do.

 

[misslane38]

It's not that I intentionally disregard how others feel about this take on Superman. It's more of a case where I just can't wrap my head around their viewpoints.

I mean I have really tried to understand others when they say that not having superman present in anything for the promotion of this movie is a good thing. And to be fair, I have actually come to somewhat understand, if not agree, with how it might be better not to show any superman footage at least.

I have so tried to understand the excitement of just seeing superman come back just to kick some ass.

But at the end of the day, I just can't understand those viewpoints at all. It's not that I'm trying to mock the people who have those viewpoints but I just can't understand or agree with why people would be content with those options.

I mean, is really asking for a superman film where he has some mini arc of his own and where he has more to do other than show up for a action sequence in the end really asking for that much? Is asking to see him have some meaningful interactions with this group as opposed to having to wait for a few more years really that demanding?

Honestly, after the whole fiasco with BvS, I would have thought that everyone would want A LOT more for the character in this film.

This post encapsulates why I have such a big problem with your approach to supporting Superman in these films. You start out complaining about marketing, but then your argument pivots to a list of demands for Superman's character that have nothing to do with your previous concerns about secretive marketing to avoid major spoilers. Instead, what I see is a litany of pessimistic assumptions about storytelling you have yet to see. You are judging the cake before it's baked and tormenting yourself and everyone else for the alleged lackluster quality of Superman's arc before you've even tasted it. I understand and respect fans who have doubts and concerns; what you are doing in this thread has passed that reasonable threshold months ago.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

It's not that I intentionally disregard how others feel about this take on Superman. It's more of a case where I just can't wrap my head around their viewpoints.

I mean I have really tried to understand others when they say that not having superman present in anything for the promotion of this movie is a good thing. And to be fair, I have actually come to somewhat understand, if not agree, with how it might be better not to show any superman footage at least.

I have so tried to understand the excitement of just seeing superman come back just to kick some ass.

But at the end of the day, I just can't understand those viewpoints at all. It's not that I'm trying to mock the people who have those viewpoints but I just can't understand or agree with why people would be content with those options.

I mean, is really asking for a superman film where he has some mini arc of his own and where he has more to do other than show up for a action sequence in the end really asking for that much? Is asking to see him have some meaningful interactions with this group as opposed to having to wait for a few more years really that demanding?

Honestly, after the whole fiasco with BvS, I would have thought that everyone would want A LOT more for the character in this film.

This is crazy, you ought to be in Arkham.

Have you seen the movie already!?

 

[Limonade]

This is crazy, you ought to be in Arkham.

Have you seen the movie already!?

The issue has always been that this Superman can be portrayed better than how he is now.

People have to go deep and grasp at symbolism and get all abstract with Superman. Yet he's a relatively straight forward superhero.

Snyder, to me, added the wrong type of complexities to Superman so early that newcomers of this DCEU won't really latch on to him as easily as it was in the early 80s.

And we're talking about people who have known about Superman for nearly half a century! Not just children or millennials.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

The issue has always been that this Superman can be portrayed better than how he is now.

People have to go deep and grasp at symbolism and get all abstract with Superman. Yet he's a relatively straight forward superhero.

Snyder, to me, added the wrong type of complexities to Superman so early that newcomers of this DCEU won't really latch on to him as easily as it was in the early 80s.

And we're talking about people who have known about Superman for nearly half a century! Not just children or millennials.

That's definitely a valid criticism, still, give this movie a chance to try and right that "wrong" I say. It's possible.

We don't know yet if Superman has his own arc in JL that mends all that. They're keeping him under wraps for a reason yet some people are certain he only shows up in the last five minutes to K.O. the bad guy.

Let's see who gets to eat crow after the movie comes out.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Here's the thing


If I was thinking from the POV of a writer of live action blockbusters (much different than comics or animated films), I think I would take any of the main characters over Superman. And I love Superman (right behind Batman, who will always be my favorite), but he's just hard to write for. Batman can fight anybody, he used gadgets and spy equipment, he's a mystery detective, fights normal people using martial arts, etc. Superman is a brawler who is so super powerful that you need a certain type of villain, if you're gonna have exciting action. Somebody who can match his strength and slug it out with him in some big CGI destruction fest.


You have to come up with all these ways for any normal people to actually be any kind of threat to him, like kidnapping his mom or kryptonite. You can't have these exciting sequences where he drops in and uses his skills to save the hostages and fights some guy on top of a moving train or a scaffolding, etc. Same with Captain America, fighting on top of a helicopter where you're scared he's gonna fall. Iron Man has all these gadgets and cool things his suit can do


Superman just has to fight some big monster or a Kryptonian, and slug it out in a regular fist fight bar brawl, or throw them into things and fly into each other really fast. There's not many exciting things you can do with him, or at least not near the amount of variation you can get with other characters, no matter how clever you get as a writer.

Look at the Batman V Superman slug fest compared to Iron Man fighting Captain America, for example

I think they did a pretty damn good job of telling a Superman story with MoS, all things considered. The action was good, but people felt like it was just too much destruction porn, because there's not much else they can do with the character to deliver a big screen blockbuster action sequence.I just don't think he'll ever be as exciting on the big screen to the general audience as the other characters, and therefore, their films will be more popular. There's a reason they're struggling with making the character's films as interesting to the GA. His name and his emblem will always be at that top number 1 or 2 spot, but the stories won't be


And, like I said, I love Superman, I'm not knocking him. He's just a lot harder to write for or get excited about. Not impossible, just on a completely different level of difficulty

 

[wnjcwjkk]

This is crazy, you ought to be in Arkham.

Have you seen the movie already!?

Yeah, that's a huge assumption to make, based on the trailer. I mean, it's fair, considering it was pretty obvious how BvS was going to play out from the trailers, but it seems like they're making an effort to hold a lot more back this time

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, after what happened with BvS, let's just say that I'm very skeptical that JL will offer something better for the character of Superman.

It would be one thing IF a new creative team had been put in charge of this film. However, we still have the same old original team from the previous film so it's hard to believe that they could turn everything upside down just like that. If anything, I'm starting to think that the biggest reasons why MOS did such a good job of establishing Superman's character (when compared to BvS) was because Nolan was somewhat involved with the story of the film.

And what is this with the whole "measuring of the *****"? It's not about ego here. I have never said that I wanted Superman to be portrayed the best of the best or to have the most screen time, etc. I have only stated that I wish the character would be treated as a equal to his peers in this group film (i.e. showing up on theatrical posters, having something to do with the team, etc.)

I mean is it really that demanding when a fan just wants to see Superman have some good interactions with the league in the first live action JL film? Why does wanting something like that automatically translate into me being an unreasonable fan who will only be satisfied when the everything on my supposed checklist is completely marked?

Yeah, I haven't seen the film. But guess what? A LOT of people were able to accurately predict on how BvS would turn out when we started getting news and footage about that film.

 

[sf2]

Sure but I expect more from someone like you who seems to be a fan of the character, unless I'm wrong about that.
As for the general perception, well it's more like a misconception and yeah it's there but such misconceptions can only be broken by a well received movie that doesn't try to morph the character into something it's not.



Like I said Action #775, the Brainiac arc and the world of new krypton would all make fantastic superman movies if done properly.

Action#775:
This is essentially a superman only kingdom come story. After JL Superman is finally the hero that we wanted and deserve but with every action there is a reaction and the dawn of justice there has to be the dawn of rough justice administered by a group of anti-heros like the elite with the likes of Manchester Black and perhaps Metallo, Livewire and other superman rogues. Or perhaps they can strike 2 birds with one stone and bring in Black Adam in Machester Black role.
The film's title would be "man of tomorrow" since the story would ask the question; who's the man of tomorrow? is it the altruistic superman or badass antiheroes like the Elite or Black Adam.

The Brainiac Arc:
This could mix bits from Azzarello's for tomorrow storyline, red son and Johns's brainiac arc.
Imagine the film beginning with a rapture type event where millions of the world's most accomplished individuals (scientists, athletes, politicians etc...) have disappeared along with some of world's biggest monuments.
Superman and the JL try (to no avail) to solve the case and superman in the process gets alittle too protective of the world and becomes more pro-active to the point that the world and the JL get worried only for kal to catch a break (in the form of an SOS signal in kryptonian language) and he goes and hunts for brainiac.
From there he finds Brainiac's planet sized ship (essentially war world) and the millions of bottled cities that it houses). Brainiac informs superman of his background as the last survivor of the planet colu and how his mission is to protect civilizations from themselves, hence he monitors planets, selects their best accomplishments, knowledge and individuals and preserves them in bottles (essentially alternate infinite space dimensions).
Brainiac offers to make superman one of his 'heralds' but kal obviously refuses so he shrinks him down and sends him to the bottled kandor where he meets his extended family like zor-el (jor-el's twin brother played again by Crow), Allura (kate blanchett maybe), kara, his maternal grandfather lor-van and maybe even his older brother knor-el (as seen in one of siegel's 'imaginary stories').
Zor-el explains to kal how brainiac wants to control everything hence why he bottles civilizations thus making Kal realize that he - out of fear for earth's safety and guilt in failing to recover all the kidnapped humans - had almost turned into Brainiac by becoming too proactive and trying to protect the planet.
Kal is depowered and losing his gifts fast thanks to the artificial red son brainiac has installed but using his wits (and the help of zor-el and his kryptonian family) inspires the populace of kandor to break free and beat Brainiac.
The film would be called 'Superman the man of steel" since in the first half of the film people (out of fear due to superman's new pro-active state) call out Kal on his Superman the man of steel moniker since Superman is a term coined by Fredrich Nische and was later adopted by the Nazis while man of steel is the moniker used originally by stalin.

Both films touch on very important issues surrounding superman namely Superman's seemingly outdated ideals and the eternal question of why superman simply doesn't just 'fix everything'.

hmm...a bit too sci fi, away from what people want / would expect for a superman story... don't you think?
and is there a charismatic, optimistic, intelligent superman???