The Dark Knight Is the Joker legally insane?

Mr.Jigsaw

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Anybody with eyes knows that the Joker does some pretty evil and insane things, and he looks crazy, and most everyone who sees him in the film calls him insane or a freak. My question is, is the Joker insane from a legal standpoint? It basically says the Joker is going to an asylum but the it seems in the Batman universe all you need to go to a nut house and not jail is a "theme" to your crimes. So if the Joker were to be put through our legal system (not anyone in particular, just where ever you live) would he be held legally insane?



I know this has probably been brought up and if so lock this down and direct me to that page. Dont flame
 
No he's not. To be legally insane the Mens Rea, or the knowledge or intention of the act must be present. Joker is fully aware of what he's doing and he's fully aware of the consequences of his actions, and he is aware that what he is doing is wrong.

Furthermore, it's not as if he's suffering from what's known as an irresistable impulse, such as automatism, he is completely under control of his own actions.

Ted Bundy was found to be legally sane, as he was aware of what he was doing, he was aware that it was wrong, and he was aware of the consequences.

Legal insanity and mental insanity are two completely different things.
 
Gambol: "You're Crazy"

Joker: "I'm not...No I'm NoT"

This guy was SUPER sane. He knew exactly what he was doing; there was no Mental problem preventing him from making the right choices. He knew what he was doing and he did it.

And he planned it all perfectly.
 
Is there even a mental illness that could make someone do the things the Joker does?

The phrase sociopath gets kicked around alot, the symptoms of which are...
1.Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2.Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3.Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4.Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5.Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6.Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7.Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

Which at first glance seems to describe The Joker pretty well, except as the movie shows the Joker is a master at planning things out and is patient enough to let his plans play out and wait for the right moment to do things.
 
He's obviously a sociopath, but lots of people can be sociopaths and not be criminals, they're mutually exclusive.

Just because you have a certain mental illness doesn't neccessarily mean you're legally insane, especially sociopathy.
 
I dont think sociopathy counts as a menat illness in the sense that having it gets you sent to the asylum. It is a personality disorder, it cant be treated, and doesnt change ones perception of reality. A sociopath just feels "entitled" to do what ever he damn well pleases. They dont feel empathy, they know right from wrong they just dont care. Right and wrong dont apply to them.
 
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No, he's not legally insane. But he is loaded. So he'd probably be able to get himself a pretty good lawyer. And I pity the jury who convicts the Joker.
 
I think The Joker is insane. Yes, he is aware of what he's doing and the morality of it. But I would argue that he is also very much detached from it. He's aware of his actions in the way that an actor is aware of his character's actions. He understands them fully, perhaps more so than most other people understand theirs, but they're not real to him. I tend to go with the idea of his psychology, as formed by such writers as Grant Morrison and Alan Moore, that he exists within his own mine set apart from the real world, interacting with and receiving information from reality just like the rest of us, but not processing the information the same way. This also goes to explain many of his character inconsistencies: In his mind, he's something like an improvisational actor on a stage (not exactly, of course, but it's a fairly apt analogy). He shifts who he is and what he does based on the situation and how he feels about the situation, or at least the idea of it. He goes with the flow, in that sense. But like I said, it's not really real to him.

Of course, that's just my interpretation of the character, based on the Joker stories I like the most.
 
Well I'd say the Joker is def. a sociopath with implse/obsessive compulsive tendencies.

But in the legal sense he knows what he is doing is wrong and he knows there will be consequences if he does it, but he does so anyways because it makes him happy.

So you could probably say he should be found insane. HOwever, fortunately for him he is a great con-artist and either tricked the psychiatrists in his psychological evaluations after being captured or had a great lawyer because he should be on his way to meet old sparky, the bad needle, the gas chamber or whatever Gotham does to execute their prisoners (I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there is a death penalty in Gotham).

But somehow he (and always) will end up in Arkham. Good for story purposes, not so good for the poor citizens of Gotham.
 
Anybody with eyes knows that the Joker does some pretty evil and insane things, and he looks crazy, and most everyone who sees him in the film calls him insane or a freak. My question is, is the Joker insane from a legal standpoint? It basically says the Joker is going to an asylum but the it seems in the Batman universe all you need to go to a nut house and not jail is a "theme" to your crimes. So if the Joker were to be put through our legal system (not anyone in particular, just where ever you live) would he be held legally insane?



I know this has probably been brought up and if so lock this down and direct me to that page. Dont flame

Yes, he IS insane, because despite his, er, anti-social actions, he continually insists that what he's doing is constructive and rational. [Gambol: "You're Crazy" Joker: "I'm not...No I'm Not"] He's not causing harm because he enjoys people's pain (witness his sincere-sounding sympathy to poor Harvey). He either does not understand why he is doing what he is doing ("I'm a dog chasing cars") or he is "sending a message".

Of course, insanity is a relative thing. Some people would say that a man who dresses up as a bat clearly has issues.
 
I don't think the TDK interpretation of the Joker is particularly insane; I think he is more in line with the "hyper-sane" Joker. I would argue that Joker is in the most coherent and logical state of mind out of anybody in the movie.
 
I think he'd end up being "legally insane" but I don't know it if he isn't actually insane under what it's suppose to stand for.
 
nah he knows what he is doing. He is beyond insane on his own level of being.
 
What he does is insane, but he knows that and does it anyway. So clinically he is disturbed (as insane is not a word used in real diagnosis), but in terms of legality, he is "sane." However he obviously is still a sociopath at the very least. Yet, he is so good at playing people (the mob, Gambol, his "stories," Harvey) that he could probably come off crazy and get an easily escapable padded cell as opposed to jail time or worse.

Who knows, though?
 
I've always favoured the "super-sanity" version of the Joker. Of course, I think that part of the notion of "super-sanity" has to do with the fact that the Joker, on some level, perceives that his world exists as the fiction of another. Not outright knowledge that he is a comic book character, but more like some of it bleeds through into his perceptions, and that's what makes him so morally detached in his actions, and drives him to be a consumate showman/philosopher. It's like when you realise sometimes you are dreaming, and you then are willing to do things you wouldn't normally do, because you aren't going to be held accountable. I think that the Joker sees too much, and this drives him a little mad.

But as for legal insanity? I don't think he meets the standard, but I do think he could sell it to a judge nonetheless.
 
It's the idea "Arkham Asylum" put forward - the Joker is a case of 'super-sanity'.
 
Insane is a legal term, not a medical one. To be declared legally insane means that when you committed the crime, you were not capable of determining right from wrong.

Something like postpartum psychosis would be an example. There was a mother who drowned her children because she was convinced that the devil was trying to kill or possess them. Also, if someone is suffering from hallucinations and they see a person walking down the street and are convinced that they are an alien trying to kill them, then they would probably proceed to attack and maybe kill that person. They don't understand that what they are doing is wrong.

So I'm pretty sure that the Joker knows what he is doing and knows that it is illegal, but he continues to act anyway. So no, he would not be considered legally insane.
 
As a criminal psychologist, the answer is no. The Joker is NOT legally insane.

I think The Joker is insane. Yes, he is aware of what he's doing and the morality of it. But I would argue that he is also very much detached from it. He's aware of his actions in the way that an actor is aware of his character's actions. He understands them fully, perhaps more so than most other people understand theirs, but they're not real to him.

That sentence is the legal definition of sanity. To be deemed legally insane, you must be unable to understand the nature and quality of their actions and know the difference between right and wrong.

1. Nature and quality of his actions; the Joker understands that he's committing murder. He understands that people will die.
2. Right and wrong; the Joker not only knows the difference, he deliberately SCORNS it and strives to take "right" people and make them do "wrong" things.

Is the Joker a sociopath? Possibly. That's a longer discussion than I'm prepared for at 6am, but the key point here is that sociopaths are not legally insane. Antisocial personality disorder is a mental disorder, but so is depression, bulimia, gender dysphoria, etc. Not everything that qualifies as a mental disorder meets the criteria for insanity. Ted Bundy was a sociopath. He went to prison, not an institution, because the absence of empathy does not preclude you from understanding that you're committing a crime. You don't have to agree that right is right and wrong is wrong to acknowledge that society upholds certain things as "right" and certain things as "wrong." People like Bundy and the Joker are fully aware that they're doing things that are legally and morally "wrong." They don't care, and not caring isn't enough to be deemed insane. You have to be unable to comprehend the existence of those moral standards.

Yes, he IS insane, because despite his, er, anti-social actions, he continually insists that what he's doing is constructive and rational. [Gambol: "You're Crazy" Joker: "I'm not...No I'm Not"] He's not causing harm because he enjoys people's pain (witness his sincere-sounding sympathy to poor Harvey). He either does not understand why he is doing what he is doing ("I'm a dog chasing cars") or he is "sending a message".
I think you're falling prey to the Joker's cunning, here, if you're perceiving his statements to Harvey as "sincere," when that entire conversation was meant to downplay his culpability and emphasize everyone else's, in the interest of manipulating him into a crime spree. "It wasn't hard. Madness, as you know, is a lot like gravity." That in itself - that deliberate destruction and manipulation of Harvey - shows a level of cunning that rules out legal insanity. The Joker absolutely enjoys causing people pain. Knives and not guns, remember? The entire ferry experiment causes serious psychological distress. Shooting the clowns and finding out they're hostages causes psychological distress. He feeds off pain and terror and suffering.

The standard you're using, that he thinks he's being constructive and rational, does not meet a legal definition of insanity. If you choose to accept that widely accepted notions of "right" and "wrong" exist, as the Joker does repeatedly, considering he plays on the morality of his victims, and reject it because you think anarchy is more enjoyable, you're a depraved, but very sane person. If finding violence and murder "constructive" and "rational" is "legally insane," all of the terrorists at Guantanamo should be in mental institutions, because they committed atrocities in the name of furthering their political agenda and consider their actions "constructive." You don't have to AGREE with normal definitions of right and wrong to be sane - you only have to be capable of knowing that you're violating legal and moral standards. You don't have to consider them valid.

As far as the super-sanity goes: it's a very interesting perspective and I tend to find merit in it. The question was legal insanity, however, and not only is super-sanity not a classifiable disorder, but, like sociopathy and depression, it wouldn't meet the insanity criteria even if it was a real diagnosis.

That said, the Joker is talented enough that he could fake a mental illness that qualifies for an insane defense. Paranoid schizophrenia (command hallucinations, the voices made him do it), delusional disorder (grandeur specification, or possibly a Messianic), dissociative identity disorder (multiple personalities), post-traumatic stress disorder (child abuse, though that's a little harder to sell to a jury) - take your pick. He's smart enough to feign any of them. That ability, in my opinion, only makes him more legally sane.
 
I love how everyone is pretending to have any idea about the psychology of a mad man after reading something about sociopathy on wikipedia.
 
"Super-sanity" is just stupid.

No the argument that Joker is legally Insane is "Stupid"


Let me just bring you back to BB

what was the problem with the system that Rachel was facing and Crane was helping?

Oh was it perfectly sane and murderous criminals being put into Arkham because Crane was finding them legally insane?

Yes it was.

Joker going to Arkham in this film would basically take EVERYTHING that Batman, Rachel, Harvey and Gordon and throw it away. He needs to be in a maximum security prison.

He's a liar; he KNOWS what he's doing is "wrong" he just doesn't care. He acknowledges himself as a criminal; there's is evidence that he knows he's going against the system and he is in the wrong.

Problem is that he doesn't believe in the system; that doesn't mean that he thinks that what he's doing is right. What he wants to do is Break Gotham and Batman and THAT is more coherent than any criminal we've seen thus far.


Stealing money is not fool-proof

Killing is not fool-proof.

Breaking the spirit is fool-proof; at worse all you can do is fail the first time; but; if you pick at a scab long enough it'll bleed.

This plan to make Gotham eat itself and have Batman go back on all he stands for is SUPER-SANE. In this sense Joker is not putting anything forward; he has nothing to lose. Eventually it HAS to happen all he needs is time and that is not allotted by law.

Crimanlly insane criminals do things because they don't know better; or they lack the stimulus to stop doing it.


Joker did what he did because he saw Batman as a hypocrite; a man striving to achieve the impossible. Protecting the city by using fear and intimidation; but, never killing anyone and never showing his real face...if you want to be technical the idea of Batman achieving his goal solely is INSANE itself. It's not possible; to strive for something impossible with the knowledge that it is impossible (like pushing a building with your bare hands continuously in the hopes of moving it) is insane.

Joker's plan what not only feasible; but, probable!

No way this guy is "Insane"

Sociopath sure; he knows he's killing people; but, it doesn't bother him; but, he KNOWS they are dying.


Did anyone notice how throughout the movie the only person who was right nearly 100% of the time was Joker?

If he's insane then he's also psychic.

I'd be tempted to say that his character is more positively connected to the human mind than any other character in the film.


People shouldn't confuse the lack of compassion and caring for a lack of mental capacity
 

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