Is the over reliance on humour a problem in the MCU

[kguillou]

I'm not interested in the umpteenth discussion about Ultron's formidability or lack thereof. I questioned the statement that Apocalypse was a formidable villain, and I still do. Yes the X-men didn't have an easy time fighting him, but that's immaterial because "drama" and "stakes" were somehow absent in a movie that featured the entire planet literally crumbling around us.

This brings me to a larger point; I walked out of X-men Apocalypse with the distinct impression that they made a diet-Marvel Studios film, particularly since it featured a generic villain with a generic plan. I thought, "wow, this is going to be mauled by the crowd who doesn't care for the MCU as this is pretty much Fox's weak attempt at recreating that formula".

I've found that the opposite has been true - a lot of the same people who rag on each MCU film give this a pass. I don't understand it. If Apocalypse had a Marvel Studios logo in front of it, I truly believe that the titular villain, and the movie as a whole, wouldn't be receiving this sort of defense from a handful of people around here. Maybe not necessarily in this thread, but I've observed it on the hype on several occasions.

And before any of you tell me how much I'd love Apocalypse if he were a Marvel villain...



I should also say that I understand that what I'm saying is controversial and somewhat accusatory, but it's how I honestly feel and I'd like for the merits of Apocalypse as a villain to be explained. What I'm seeing is a group of people who look at one dish served up by one chef and unanimously go "yuck!"; these same ingredients are then served up by a different chef in a very similar (and overall worse in my opinion, but that's another conversation) dish, but for some reason it works now? That's why I think, for some, it's about the chef and not the food itself. I don't get it, and I'm respectfully positing this opinion to see any counter-arguments.


"It's been a long day" is a joke?

I respectfully disagree. Look, I'll say this upfront , I loved X: Apocalypse, I'll concede that I understand some of the complaints around it and yes, the makeup was awkward on Oscar Isaac was offputting but Oscar Isaac is also the reason why the villain was formidable to me. His demeanor, his performance, his menace, his power level it was all there. I wanted to see an X-Men movie where we finally see the X-men work together to go up against an unstoppable force and they delivered on that. Oscar Isaac gave Apocalypse a gravitas that was sorely needed with Ultron and he posed a formidable physical threat to them. He wasn't someone that could be taken down with a couple of hammer throws or a punch.

I feel like those are always the best battles in superhero comics, the ones where the heroes are giving everything they've got and their best is not enough, and it takes a wild card to overcome the villain and save the day. I mean, hey, if you didn't feel the tension and drama during the climax of that film, I guess it is what it is, it just didn't resonate with you and thats completely fine, but with the team throwing everything at Apocalypse, Charles trying to fight him psychically and none of it working and then Charles pleading and encouraging Jean to "let it go!" and Jean unsure of herself, found the will to unleash her hidden powers, I dunno, to me that's great comic book stuff I've always wanted to see and quite frankly up until that point no superhero film has been able to deliver.

 

[TeeKay]

I thought that Apocalypse had one really good scene. When he's recruiting Magneto and he just wipes out the steel workers in an instant. Other than that, there wasn't much there.

"Leeeaaaaarrrrnniiiiinnnggg."

 

[Flint Marko]

I respectfully disagree. Look, I'll say this upfront , I loved X: Apocalypse, I'll concede that I understand some of the complaints around it and yes, the makeup was awkward on Oscar Isaac was offputting but Oscar Isaac is also the reason why the villain was formidable to me. His demeanor, his performance, his menace, his power level it was all there. I wanted to see an X-Men movie where we finally see the X-men work together to go up against an unstoppable force and they delivered on that. Oscar Isaac gave Apocalypse a gravitas that was sorely needed with Ultron and he posed a formidable physical threat to them. He wasn't someone that could be taken down with a couple of hammer throws or a punch.

I feel like those are always the best battles in superhero comics, the ones where the heroes are giving everything they've got and their best is not enough, and it takes a wild card to overcome the villain and save the day. I mean, hey, if you didn't feel the tension and drama during the climax of that film, I guess it is what it is, it just didn't resonate with you and thats completely fine, but with the team throwing everything at Apocalypse, Charles trying to fight him psychically and none of it working and then Charles pleading and encouraging Jean to "let it go!" and Jean unsure of herself, found the will to unleash her hidden powers, I dunno, to me that's great comic book stuff I've always wanted to see and quite frankly up until that point no superhero film has been able to deliver.

We don't see eye to eye, but this is basically the exact response I was wanting. Thank you

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

I respectfully disagree. Look, I'll say this upfront , I loved X: Apocalypse, I'll concede that I understand some of the complaints around it and yes, the makeup was awkward on Oscar Isaac was offputting but Oscar Isaac is also the reason why the villain was formidable to me. His demeanor, his performance, his menace, his power level it was all there. I wanted to see an X-Men movie where we finally see the X-men work together to go up against an unstoppable force and they delivered on that. Oscar Isaac gave Apocalypse a gravitas that was sorely needed with Ultron and he posed a formidable physical threat to them. He wasn't someone that could be taken down with a couple of hammer throws or a punch.

I feel like those are always the best battles in superhero comics, the ones where the heroes are giving everything they've got and their best is not enough, and it takes a wild card to overcome the villain and save the day. I mean, hey, if you didn't feel the tension and drama during the climax of that film, I guess it is what it is, it just didn't resonate with you and thats completely fine, but with the team throwing everything at Apocalypse, Charles trying to fight him psychically and none of it working and then Charles pleading and encouraging Jean to "let it go!" and Jean unsure of herself, found the will to unleash her hidden powers, I dunno, to me that's great comic book stuff I've always wanted to see and quite frankly up until that point no superhero film has been able to deliver.

Damn i didnt feel any of that. Like at all. I love Oscar but his Apoc was disappointing as hell and the movie had its moments but never really realized its potential. It felt like more of the same.

 

[First Avenger]

First off, it was a lot more than three jokes, all coming from a character who simply shouldn't be funny. Secondly, Quicksilver's death means nothing, because it was quickly followed by another joke and had no impact on the characters going forward other than one line from Scarlet Witch. Ultron in the HISHE sketch was a more formidable adversary than the one we got in the actual movie.

1- Even if there are more than three that's not enough to mark him just as a comedian.

2- What joke? Besides,Hawkeye named his third son after Pietro.


I swear some people think every line in the MCU is a joke.
Apocalypse touching tv and his 'leeeeeearnnnniiiiiing' is more cringey and(unintentionally) fun than a lot of things.

 

[kguillou]

Its funny, "more of the same" was the biggest complaint of that movie but I just didnt feel that. Yeah maybe some beats were hit again but overall, it still very much felt like a different installment in the series. And, honestly, maybe the fanboy in me was just too busy geeking out at the "geek out" moments to let it bother me, like the Weapon X scene, the quicksilver sequence, the Phoenix sequence and finally, FINALLY after 8 movies getting to see the Xmen work as a cohesive unit.

 

[First Avenger]

Its funny, "more of the same" was the biggest complaint of that movie but I just didnt feel that. Yeah maybe some beats were hit again but overall, it still very much felt like a different installment in the series. And, honestly, maybe the fanboy in me was just too busy geeking out at the "geek out" moments to let it bother me, like the Weapon X scene, the quicksilver sequence, the Phoenix sequence and finally, FINALLY after 8 movies getting to see the Xmen work as a cohesive unit.

The problem is that it came out at least 10 years too late,the script was terrible and follows a lot of the same mistakes x3 had,the weapon x stuff was obviously and badly shoehorned in the movie...It was just lazy after how great FC and DoFP were.

 

[Mjölnir]

Apocalypse was a failure for me. He was so boring that I was consistently taken out of the movie, wondering how much time was left. That was because he basically never had anything interesting to say, he looked silly, and the acting performance didn't work.

X-Men was my main comic book franchise growing up, together with Spider-Man, and as much as I wanted Apocalypse to be good they completely missed the mark with him for me. Such a disappointment.

When comparing to Ultron there's no contest in my view. I have no problem seeing why some didn't like how he was changed, or that the Avengers were shown as a dominating force, but he did have some interesting things to say, and Spader's voice performance was far beyond what Apocalypse had. Those two things alone make them play in different leagues. You can be as big of a threat as you want, if you don't work as a character everything fails.

 

[BH/HHH]

I really need to watch X-Men Apocalypse to make judgement but what really bothers me is I'm a big fan of the X-Men franchise but I don't feel like watching XA at all. Not sure what it was but the trailers didn't grab me at all. Hopefully I'll see it soon though and then I can give my 2 cents if Apocalypse.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm not interested in the umpteenth discussion about Ultron's formidability or lack thereof. I questioned the statement that Apocalypse was a formidable villain, and I still do. Yes the X-men didn't have an easy time fighting him, but that's immaterial because "drama" and "stakes" were somehow absent in a movie that featured the entire planet literally crumbling around us.

This brings me to a larger point; I walked out of X-men Apocalypse with the distinct impression that they made a diet-Marvel Studios film, particularly since it featured a generic villain with a generic plan. I thought, "wow, this is going to be mauled by the crowd who doesn't care for the MCU as this is pretty much Fox's weak attempt at recreating that formula".

I've found that the opposite has been true - a lot of the same people who rag on each MCU film give this a pass. I don't understand it. If Apocalypse had a Marvel Studios logo in front of it, I truly believe that the titular villain, and the movie as a whole, wouldn't be receiving this sort of defense from a handful of people around here. Maybe not necessarily in this thread, but I've observed it on the hype on several occasions.

And before any of you tell me how much I'd love Apocalypse if he were a Marvel villain...



I should also say that I understand that what I'm saying is controversial and somewhat accusatory, but it's how I honestly feel and I'd like for the merits of Apocalypse as a villain to be explained. What I'm seeing is a group of people who look at one dish served up by one chef and unanimously go "yuck!"; these same ingredients are then served up by a different chef in a very similar (and overall worse in my opinion, but that's another conversation) dish, but for some reason it works now? That's why I think, for some, it's about the chef and not the food itself. I don't get it, and I'm respectfully positing this opinion to see any counter-arguments.


"It's been a long day" is a joke?

Sorry Flint, I have no issue with you, but I think the bolded part is ********, Apocalyose was a bit more lighthearted, but I wouldn't say it exactly like an MCU movie at all. I didn't see jokes being made throughout the final battle or just after dramatic moments like the MCU often does. The drama was allowed to flow at the right time. Plus there were many dark and violent moments during Apocalypse that would never be in an MCU movie. Especially the weapon X scene were blood was everywhere. And that was just one moment that wouldn't make an MCU movie. There were more. DOFP had plenty of moments of humour also though, so it's not like Singer didn't put humour in his movies before.

I respectfully disagree. Look, I'll say this upfront , I loved X: Apocalypse, I'll concede that I understand some of the complaints around it and yes, the makeup was awkward on Oscar Isaac was offputting but Oscar Isaac is also the reason why the villain was formidable to me. His demeanor, his performance, his menace, his power level it was all there. I wanted to see an X-Men movie where we finally see the X-men work together to go up against an unstoppable force and they delivered on that. Oscar Isaac gave Apocalypse a gravitas that was sorely needed with Ultron and he posed a formidable physical threat to them. He wasn't someone that could be taken down with a couple of hammer throws or a punch.

I feel like those are always the best battles in superhero comics, the ones where the heroes are giving everything they've got and their best is not enough, and it takes a wild card to overcome the villain and save the day. I mean, hey, if you didn't feel the tension and drama during the climax of that film, I guess it is what it is, it just didn't resonate with you and thats completely fine, but with the team throwing everything at Apocalypse, Charles trying to fight him psychically and none of it working and then Charles pleading and encouraging Jean to "let it go!" and Jean unsure of herself, found the will to unleash her hidden powers, I dunno, to me that's great comic book stuff I've always wanted to see and quite frankly up until that point no superhero film has been able to deliver.

Totally agreed, it was like the cartoon from the 90's come to life, I too love it when the heroes are giving their all to a villain and they still can't overcome him, then something totally unexpected happens that turns the tide for heroes. Mi loved that the franchise finally had a formidable villain who could take on the whole team and not blink an eye. I loved it, I also loved a few of Apocalypse's badass moments in the final battle, there were a couple, but I especially loved when Charles starts fighting him on the psychic plain and is punching Apocalypse and says to him "your in my house now!" He then gets a few more hits in before Apocalypse catches his fist and says "You'll need a bigger house" and then grows huge. There was so much I loved about that final battle and Apoc still had some other bad ass moments throughout.

It's what I hope to see when The Avengers face Thanos or in JL when Superman comes back.

 

[Bats123]

I really need to watch X-Men Apocalypse to make judgement but what really bothers me is I'm a big fan of the X-Men franchise but I don't feel like watching XA at all. Not sure what it was but the trailers didn't grab me at all. Hopefully I'll see it soon though and then I can give my 2 cents if Apocalypse.

EVERYTHING THEY BUILT WILL FALL...

im sorry thats just the default response i have to that movie <__<

 

[TeeKay]

I'm sorry but Apocalypse followed that MCU template. I very much agree with Flint. Magneto saying,"who the **** are you" after giving an emotional speech deflated the moment for me. They even undercut Havocs death the having that ridiculous over the top Quicksilver scene which was played for laugh during what's suppose to be a serious and emotional moment.

This whole notion that MCU films are not as dark or violent as other cbms is not true at all. Until we see any other cbm pulling off what the MCU does in the Netflix series which is very dark and violent, then we can say that. But right now, these X-Men films are no more violent and dark than the likes of WS, BvS, SS, IM3, CW etc

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm sorry but Apocalypse followed that MCU template. I very much agree with Flint. Magneto saying,"who the **** are you" after giving an emotional speech deflated the moment for me. They even undercut Havocs death the having that ridiculous over the top Quicksilver scene which was played for laugh during what's suppose to be a serious and emotional moment.

This whole notion that MCU films are not as dark or violent as other cbms is not true at all. Until we see any other cbm pulling off what the MCU does in the Netflix series which is very dark and violent, then we can say that. But right now, these X-Men films are no more violent and dark than the likes of WS, BvS, SS, IM3, CW etc

Couldn't disagree more. Did you see jokes being made when Magneto's family were killed? Or when Magneto blitzed Auschwitz? Or during the no more super powers scene? Or when Raven was trying to convince Erik to join them or was being choked to death by Apocalypse? Nope, just because it happened a couple of times doesn't make it like an MCU movie. Not to mention after that Magneto line Apocalypse slaughtered a whole factory's worth of people.

The Netflix shows run under totally different rules, we are simply talking about the movies here, and nothing in the MCU is as violent as Wolverine's escape from weapon X in Apoc, there is blood flying everywhere in that scene. I was actually shocked by how violent it was the first time I saw it.

And DOFP was much darker than the movies you listed Teekay.

 

[TeeKay]

So dark and violent=good movie?

The scenes with Magneto worked but the whole "destroying the world" 3rd act didn't work for me at all because it was done soooo poorly. I was just pointing out that it isn't just the MCU guilty of deflating emotional scenes with humour (intentional or not) but I was really surprised with the choices that Singer made because it's not like him to do such things which is why The movie sucked. The whole Havoc death had me going wow, he totally glossed over that. And then when Magneto is trying to Avenger his family, Singer deflates the moment just because he wants to throw in a curse word.

The movie came out 10 years too late. That's why it's so forgettable and not even worth mentioning for CBMs this year. Being dark and violent does not make a good cbm. And I'm honestly sick of people using this excuse to knock off other cbms especially the MCU. Tone doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if you're not able to tell a good story in the first place which is what Apocalypse failed to do.

Give me a great script, with great characters and great story and worry about tone down the line. And that's all I ask for from these cbms. Nothing more.

 

[First Avenger]

I think we're going nowhere with this discussion. Most of us like/love the MCU and will continue to do so,same for those who like other CBMs more,no matter how negative or mixed the General consensus on said movies is.

 

[Flint Marko]

Deeming my opinion as ******** is exactly the response I wasn't looking for.

"Humor that undercuts emotional moments" is not a staple of the MCU as a whole save for a few scenes in a few movies. The bulk of their filmography doesn't suffer from this.

Moreover, humor is just one facet that you've chosen to latch onto here but you've ignored the rest of my points, mainly dealing with Apocalypse as a villain.

 

[TeeKay]

I think we're going nowhere with this discussion. Most of us like/love the MCU and will continue to do so,same for those who like other CBMs more,no matter how negative or mixed the General consensus on said movies is.

 

[TeeKay]

Deeming my opinion as ******** is exactly the response I wasn't looking for.

"Humor that undercuts emotional moments" is not a staple of the MCU as a whole save for a few scenes in a few movies. The bulk of their filmography doesn't suffer from this.

Moreover, humor is just one facet that you've chosen to latch onto here but you've ignored the rest of my points, mainly dealing with Apocalypse as a villain.

It doesn't define the MCU and it never will. Literally we can have a list of serious moments in the MCU with no humour at all. People here are acting as if every emotional moment is deflated by humour. Which is is indeed ********.

I go to these superhero movies for escapism. Give me humour everyday over dourness and down beat cbms. I don't wanna walk out of cbms feeling depressed and sad. One of the best feelings I ever had was coming out of the first Avengers film. Hopeful, happy and excited.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So dark and violent=good movie?

I didn't say that in any way shape or form Teekay? I was just pointing out Apoc had darker and more violent moments that you would ever get in the MCU, and was not like an MCU movie.

The scenes with Magneto worked but the whole "destroying the world" 3rd act didn't work for me at all because it was done soooo poorly. I was just pointing out that it isn't just the MCU guilty of deflating emotional scenes with humour (intentional or not) but I was really surprised with the choices that Singer made because it's not like him to do such things which is why The movie sucked. The whole Havoc death had me going wow, he totally glossed over that. And then when Magneto is trying to Avenger his family, Singer deflates the moment just because he wants to throw in a curse word.

The movie came out 10 years too late. That's why it's so forgettable and not even worth mentioning for CBMs this year. Being dark and violent does not make a good cbm. And I'm honestly sick of people using this excuse to knock off other cbms especially the MCU. Tone doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if you're not able to tell a good story in the first place which is what Apocalypse failed to do.

Give me a great script, with great characters and great story and worry about tone down the line. And that's all I ask for from these cbms. Nothing more.

Again, who said dark and violent means a good movie? You are getting way too defensive here. You and Flint said Apoc was like an MCU movie, I was simply, showing how it wasn't. The MCU is more guilty of deflating what should be dramatic and emotional moments and that's why people bring it up and why threads like this get made. You may get sick of it, but they are legitimate gripes and you have no problem pointing out flaws in other franchises so what is the problem with others people doing it for the MCU? I personally get sick of people constantly defending certain aspects. It doesn't make the movies less successful but they are certainly not perfect.

The rest about Apoc is your opinion and I disagree with it but you are entitled to it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Deeming my opinion as ******** is exactly the response I wasn't looking for.

"Humor that undercuts emotional moments" is not a staple of the MCU as a whole save for a few scenes in a few movies. The bulk of their filmography doesn't suffer from this.

Moreover, humor is just one facet that you've chosen to latch onto here but you've ignored the rest of my points, mainly dealing with Apocalypse as a villain.

Sorry but you were allowed to post your feelings on it and I posted mine. I don't think Apoc is like an MCU movie at all. I gave reasons I liked Apoc, and have countless times. It wasn't just humour I latched onto. But it's the theme of this thread. That's why I brought it up. And sorry but humour that undercuts dramatic moments is a legitimate gripe with MCU movies and it happens too often otherwise people wouldn't comment.

 

[TeeKay]

Yes and I pointed out the same stuff happened in Apocalypse too. I don't defend that aspect of the MCU films,in fact I acknowledged it was a problem in TDW, IM2 and IM3. I'm not completely unaware of it. But people here act as if the movies are forever ruined just because characters crack jokes during emotional moments (even if it's a defence mechanism).

One of the reasons I loathe IM2 despite the obvious glaring problems of the script was actually the humour because it was slapstick and just kinda just innapproprate (Tony peeing in his suit).

If I came off as rude and defensive. My apologies.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yes and I pointed out the same stuff happened in Apocalypse too. I don't defend that aspect of the MCU films,in fact I acknowledged it was a problem in TDW, IM2 and IM3. I'm not completely unaware of it. But people here act as if the movies are forever ruined just because characters crack jokes during emotional moments (even if it's a defence mechanism).

One of the reasons I loathe IM2 despite the obvious glaring problems of the script was actually the humour because it was slapstick and just kinda just innapproprate (Tony peeing in his suit).

If I came off as rude and defensive. My apologies.

That's fair enough, not a problem. Apologies if I came off any of those things too.

While it happens a couple of times in Apoc, it was a constant thing in the likes of TDW, IM2 and 3 and AOU. So it's why I disagree that Apoc was like that. It's also why I find those movies some of the worst the MCU has to offer.

I wouldn't say people act as if the movies are ruined because of jokes during emotional moments, it's actually worked well for me a couple of times. I just wish at times they would let the emotional moments breathe a bit more before the jokes come back on the scene. As I have said a few times before, the use of humour in TWS and CW was spot on. I also thought it was used to the movies benefit in Ant Man and GOTG.

Doc Strange looks like it will use correctly as well. I actually think the wifi joke in the trailer was great.

 

[kguillou]

This is just my opinion, but I think the mere fact that humor in Marvel movies has been a hot topic lately (not just on this forum, but I've been seeing articles about it elsewhere) indicates that people are starting to become a little irked by Marvel's placement of it in their films. Right now people are scared ****less of Taika Waititi's Ragnroak because they're afraid its going to be humor-filled instead of the darker grand scale epic its title implies it is. Every time I read an article about Ragnorak, the humor concern always comes up, I think that kind of indicates that fans are becoming a little apprehensive about the tone of these movies.

Dark and violent does not equal a good movie but there is something to be said deflating tension. If you have a dark or violent scene, give it weight, let it play out, let the audience gasp, don't undercut it or when a badass moment is about to occur, let it be badass, dont deflate the moment. Humor is a good thing, but don't overdo it. I don't need to see Tony Stark DJ'ing at a party and peeing inside of his suit (UGGGHHHH at that scene!!!), or Tony's suit falling apart for 8th time (if the suit was so dysfunctional, why is he using it???).

 

[First Avenger]

I think many CBMs are very similar one with the other,but there are two big differences between the MCU and its competition: it actually makes you care about its main characters. The GA showed they love watching these heroes,their relationships,their feats,their sad moments and,yes,their fun moments too. The MCU lets the vast majority people actually support and cheer for their heroes,something I think you really can't say about any other heroes aside from Nolan's Batman,Donner's Superman and (partly) Wolverine. We're talking about characters that were nobodies becoming household names while X-Men movies repeatedly fail to make even their leader Cyclops relatable to audience.


Then for fans,the movies really capture the essence of What lee,Kirby and their successors created in the comics. Even when they change things from the source material the spirit of the comics,the excitement,Marvel's trademark wackyness and mix of action,humor,character drama and positive atmosphere are still there,again something at least half of the X-movies fail to do and I love most of those movies. Why should I,a person already inclined to depression,prefer depressing movies about people saving the world with spandex and capes? That's why I love the MCU: it gives me the same feelings I had when I opened my precious Marvel comics.

 

[SuperAl]

the MCU had gotten to a point where they wanted spidey so bad they turned all their heroes into sarcastic heroes who throw quips and insults at their villains or eachother mid battle. They all seem too similar to one another in how they act. They just need to pull it back a bit. Bruce Banner shouldnt be as cheerful and comedic as he is.

Winter solider balanced it perfectly but i thought they went overboard during the airport fight in civil war. Seemed like they were all having too much fun wrecking stuff.