Is the over reliance on humour a problem in the MCU

[kguillou]

the MCU had gotten to a point where they wanted spidey so bad they turned all their heroes into sarcastic heroes who throw quips and insults at their villains or eachother mid battle. They all seem too similar to one another in how they act. They just need to pull it back a bit. Bruce Banner shouldnt be as cheerful and comedic as he is.

Winter solider balanced it perfectly but i thought they went overboard during the airport fight in civil war. Seemed like they were all having too much fun wrecking stuff.

Haha, I don't think that's the case. I've said this before, I think, simply put, Kevin Feige realized that the key to a well received movie is making people laugh and have a good time. I mean, besides Spider-man and BP, everyone's talkign about how Paul Rudd stole the show in CW because of how funny he was (and he was funny) and it worked and made sense for his character to BE funny in that situation.

Where Marvel sometimes trips is they try to force it on characters or situations that should be taken a little more seriously.

 

[TheVileOne]

the MCU had gotten to a point where they wanted spidey so bad they turned all their heroes into sarcastic heroes who throw quips and insults at their villains or eachother mid battle. They all seem too similar to one another in how they act. They just need to pull it back a bit. Bruce Banner shouldnt be as cheerful and comedic as he is.

How is that anywhere near true? When is Thor constantly bantering during battle? Bruce Banner's hardly a cheerful and comedic banter. Was there that much comedy with him in Age of Ultron? His big scene has him mournfully telling him he can't be in a relationship with Black Widow because it can't work and they can't have kids. Because he sees himself as a monster.

And what about Hulk? Hulk basically never talks. In the comics, Hulk talks and banters quite a bit actually, but the movies don't ever want him to talk at all. In the last eight years, we've only gotten ONE Hulk Smash. Just once, and never again.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

This is just my opinion, but I think the mere fact that humor in Marvel movies has been a hot topic lately (not just on this forum, but I've been seeing articles about it elsewhere) indicates that people are starting to become a little irked by Marvel's placement of it in their films. Right now people are scared ****less of Taika Waititi's Ragnroak because they're afraid its going to be humor-filled instead of the darker grand scale epic its title implies it is. Every time I read an article about Ragnorak, the humor concern always comes up, I think that kind of indicates that fans are becoming a little apprehensive about the tone of these movies.

Dark and violent does not equal a good movie but there is something to be said deflating tension. If you have a dark or violent scene, give it weight, let it play out, let the audience gasp, don't undercut it or when a badass moment is about to occur, let it be badass, dont deflate the moment. Humor is a good thing, but don't overdo it. I don't need to see Tony Stark DJ'ing at a party and peeing inside of his suit (UGGGHHHH at that scene!!!), or Tony's suit falling apart for 8th time (if the suit was so dysfunctional, why is he using it???).

sums up my feelings perfectly.

 

[TheVileOne]

The Dark World has a 66% Rotten Tomatoes rating and people probably think it has too much of Kat Dennings and Professor Selvig acting like a lunatic.

 

[CaptainWagner]

1- Even if there are more than three that's not enough to mark him just as a comedian.

2- What joke? Besides,Hawkeye named his third son after Pietro.


I swear some people think every line in the MCU is a joke.
Apocalypse touching tv and his 'leeeeeearnnnniiiiiing' is more cringey and(unintentionally) fun than a lot of things.

1) Ultron is simply not a character who should be making jokes. I really don't know how anyone can seriously argue the opposite.

2) Hulk throwing Ultron out of the jet is what I was referring to. And outside of the passing reference to Hawkeye's kid, we get nothing. No memorial at the Avengers base, no questions about Wanda dealing with the aftermath, and he's forgotten by Civil War.

So dark and violent=good movie?

The scenes with Magneto worked but the whole "destroying the world" 3rd act didn't work for me at all because it was done soooo poorly. I was just pointing out that it isn't just the MCU guilty of deflating emotional scenes with humour (intentional or not) but I was really surprised with the choices that Singer made because it's not like him to do such things which is why The movie sucked. The whole Havoc death had me going wow, he totally glossed over that. And then when Magneto is trying to Avenger his family, Singer deflates the moment just because he wants to throw in a curse word.

The movie came out 10 years too late. That's why it's so forgettable and not even worth mentioning for CBMs this year. Being dark and violent does not make a good cbm. And I'm honestly sick of people using this excuse to knock off other cbms especially the MCU. Tone doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if you're not able to tell a good story in the first place which is what Apocalypse failed to do.

Give me a great script, with great characters and great story and worry about tone down the line. And that's all I ask for from these cbms. Nothing more.

BEing dark and violent doesn't make a movie good, but being WILLING to make a movie dark and violent makes a franchise good. And Marvel/Disney is so far unwilling to do that.

Haha, I don't think that's the case. I've said this before, I think, simply put, Kevin Feige realized that the key to a well received movie is making people laugh and have a good time. I mean, besides Spider-man and BP, everyone's talkign about how Paul Rudd stole the show in CW because of how funny he was (and he was funny) and it worked and made sense for his character to BE funny in that situation.

Where Marvel sometimes trips is they try to force it on characters or situations that should be taken a little more seriously.

I find it kind of sad if people can no longer enjoy a movie that isn't consistently funny throughout...

 

[Zarex]

1) Ultron is simply not a character who should be making jokes. I really don't know how anyone can seriously argue the opposite.

Ooh, ooh, Ill take this one. The change in parentage from Pym to Stark necessitated a personality adjustment. I had my problems with Ultron's power levels, but I didn't find him to be particularly quippy. And he's always been emotionally immature.

2) Hulk throwing Ultron out of the jet is what I was referring to. And outside of the passing reference to Hawkeye's kid, we get nothing. No memorial at the Avengers base, no questions about Wanda dealing with the aftermath, and he's forgotten by Civil War.

Feige and company could have included "Pietro, We Hardly Knew Ye" as a Blu-Ray bonus feature, but I doubt it would have moved product off the shelves. I prefer they keep most of the mourning between features.

BEing dark and violent doesn't make a movie good, but being WILLING to make a movie dark and violent makes a franchise good. And Marvel/Disney is so far unwilling to do that.

Theres been plenty of darkness and violence in the MCU films. The proper balance of light and dark makes a franchise great.

I find it kind of sad if people can no longer enjoy a movie that isn't consistently funny throughout...

I think most folks prefer to laugh along with their superheroes. I'm well past the age of worrying if other folks don't find my film preferences sufficiently dark, deep, gritty, grounded and mature.

 

[TheVileOne]

BEing dark and violent doesn't make a movie good, but being WILLING to make a movie dark and violent makes a franchise good. And Marvel/Disney is so far unwilling to do that.


I find it kind of sad if people can no longer enjoy a movie that isn't consistently funny throughout...

I feel like DCEU defenders are constantly missing the point when arguments like this are presented.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I feel like DCEU defenders are constantly missing the point when arguments like this are presented.

What point?

And towards those saying Marvel has been willing to make dark and violent movies, just which movies are you talking about, exactly? I like superheroes who make jokes, but I also like dark and gritty heroes. A truly healthy shared universe has a place for both to coexist.

 

[Web-Head]

I don't think reliance is the right word.

 

[TheVileOne]

What point?

And towards those saying Marvel has been willing to make dark and violent movies, just which movies are you talking about, exactly? I like superheroes who make jokes, but I also like dark and gritty heroes. A truly healthy shared universe has a place for both to coexist.

Well did Civil War and Winter Soldier over-rely on humor?

What about the first Thor for that matter? The Incredible Hulk?

I mean I also think when you get to the spirit of the comics, a lot of the best Marvel comic stories aren't super dark and gritty stories. Though I mean there are plenty that are. Look at how dark and violent Ultimates is. Ultimates was something Zak Penn talked about being a major influence when he was working on The Avengers and that sounded terrible. Justice League stories generally aren't dark and gritty either.

And if it's that important to you, the MCU shared universe has that. Daredevil, Jessica Jones and now Luke Cage all on Netflix. All of which are really darker and more violent than anything depicted in Zack Snyder's movies. Jessica Jones actually addresses rape and sexual violence. All the shows are TV-MA.

That tone works for Daredevil because of the setting of Hell's Kitchen, and Daredevil getting revamped in the 80s by Frank Miller, and the stories became much darker and grittier and that worked for Daredevil. It helped his series stand out a lot more and differentiated his comic.

Audiences weren't crazy about it with Man of Steel. And then it was doubled down for Batman v Superman and it was rejected there as well. Audiences showed up and were ready to get on board and love it too. But then case in point, 70 percent drop in the second weekend.

You have to find a balance. I feel like Civil War and Winter Soldier are pretty balanced. To me they are pretty serious films with serious stakes. They aren't borderline action comedies. They are straight action-adventure movies.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The only actual comedies are GOTG and maybe Ant-Man.

 

[TheVileOne]

To me Guardians of the Galaxy is no more a comedy than A New Hope, The Force Awakens or Raiders of the Lost Ark. Here's a clip from the original Star Wars for you all to chew on:

[YT]KYAbFqkvzQA[/YT]

The aesthetic of Guardians was similar. I'd hardly call it a comedy

Rocket Raccoon, yes he's a talking raccoon, but did you not emotionally understand him? Was Rocket not a damaged character who is doing more than just doing stupid noises and jokes the whole time? No. He was a fully realized character that was more than just a wise-cracking goofy comic relief. He was a character in a world of fully realized aliens and oddities. Just as Groot was.

It's not that they made a talking raccoon, it's that they made a talking raccoon a three-dimensional character that people fall in love with.

Outside of maybe The Force Awakens, IMHO Guardians of the Galaxy was the closest a new movie came to recreating the aesthetic of the original Star Wars movie in years that so many attempt but constantly fail at. It was that type of movie for me.

 

[First Avenger]

Vile you're making too much sense.

 

[Flint Marko]

Some great points being made all around here

I like superheroes who make jokes, but I also like dark and gritty heroes. A truly healthy shared universe has a place for both to coexist.

I've got some great news: Marvel has created a string of critically lauded Netflix series that fit your exact criteria. A healthy shared universe indeed!

Sorry but you were allowed to post your feelings on it and I posted mine. I don't think Apoc is like an MCU movie at all. I gave reasons I liked Apoc, and have countless times. It wasn't just humour I latched onto. But it's the theme of this thread. That's why I brought it up. And sorry but humour that undercuts dramatic moments is a legitimate gripe with MCU movies and it happens too often otherwise people wouldn't comment.

I posted my opinion respectfully, and you responded by labeling it ********. You're allowed to post your feelings, and I'm allowed to respond in kind.
If you didn't want to contribute to the question about Apocalypse's merit as a villain (which is what I initially asked for) then you didn't have to say anything.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah Marvel gave us a dagnab talking raccoon, but they didn't make him into a walking joke. I think the other point is in using humor to underscore those great moments and not undercut them.

Now on a personal level all the weird "comedy" in the Michael Bay Transformers movie generally kills the tension and narrative a lot of the time. I would say most of the Marvel films don't have that problem. Now those are very popular movies, but I think all of them are garbage.

 

[Timebomb]

To me Guardians of the Galaxy is no more a comedy than A New Hope, The Force Awakens or Raiders of the Lost Ark. Here's a clip from the original Star Wars for you all to chew on:

[YT]KYAbFqkvzQA[/YT]

The aesthetic of Guardians was similar. I'd hardly call it a comedy

Rocket Raccoon, yes he's a talking raccoon, but did you not emotionally understand him? Was Rocket not a damaged character who is doing more than just doing stupid noises and jokes the whole time? No. He was a fully realized character that was more than just a wise-cracking goofy comic relief. He was a character in a world of fully realized aliens and oddities. Just as Groot was.

It's not that they made a talking raccoon, it's that they made a talking raccoon a three-dimensional character that people fall in love with.

Outside of maybe The Force Awakens, IMHO Guardians of the Galaxy was the closest a new movie came to recreating the aesthetic of the original Star Wars movie in years that so many attempt but constantly fail at. It was that type of movie for me.

You are absolutely right Vile. Cheers.

 

[Batsfan1]

To me Guardians of the Galaxy is no more a comedy than A New Hope, The Force Awakens or Raiders of the Lost Ark. Here's a clip from the original Star Wars for you all to chew on:

[YT]KYAbFqkvzQA[/YT]

The aesthetic of Guardians was similar. I'd hardly call it a comedy

Rocket Raccoon, yes he's a talking raccoon, but did you not emotionally understand him? Was Rocket not a damaged character who is doing more than just doing stupid noises and jokes the whole time? No. He was a fully realized character that was more than just a wise-cracking goofy comic relief. He was a character in a world of fully realized aliens and oddities. Just as Groot was.

It's not that they made a talking raccoon, it's that they made a talking raccoon a three-dimensional character that people fall in love with.

Outside of maybe The Force Awakens, IMHO Guardians of the Galaxy was the closest a new movie came to recreating the aesthetic of the original Star Wars movie in years that so many attempt but constantly fail at. It was that type of movie for me.

It's been a while since I've seen Raiders, but I can at least say with a great deal of certainty that GOTG is far more of a comedy than ANH and TFA. It not a bad thing for that movie to be that. ANH is more in line with CW or CA: TFA in tone. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

 

[TeeKay]

Huh? CW and CA:TFA have completely different tones.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Some great points being made all around here


I've got some great news: Marvel has created a string of critically lauded Netflix series that fit your exact criteria. A healthy shared universe indeed!



I posted my opinion respectfully, and you responded by labeling it ********. You're allowed to post your feelings, and I'm allowed to respond in kind.
If you didn't want to contribute to the question about Apocalypse's merit as a villain (which is what I initially asked for) then you didn't have to say anything.

Flint I did address why I liked Apocalypse as a villain, you instead chose to focus on the word ********. I also agreed with the points Kguillou made and backing up what he said. I didn't mean to offend and was maybe a bit too blunt. But I did post why I liked him as a villain also.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Guardians was a lot more jokey than any SW movie, even TFA. But I didn't have a problem with the humour in Guardians as it was a part of what made the movie so good and helped us get into the characters. Gunns humour is great .

 

[Batsfan1]

Huh? CW and CA:TFA have completely different tones.

That's why I said "or", but I don't think they're that hugely different. My point was that they were both relatively serious, though CA: TFA has more whimsy.

 

[kguillou]

Actually, guya, the George Lucas Star Wars films are pretty serious, thise movies play it pretty straight. There is levity though through characters like C3P0 and R2 and the sarcastic Han Solo but other than that the subject matter is played very straight. GoTG is very much a self-referential comedy. George Lucas would have never had Luke dance off in front of Darth Vader.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Well did Civil War and Winter Soldier over-rely on humor?

What about the first Thor for that matter? The Incredible Hulk?

I mean I also think when you get to the spirit of the comics, a lot of the best Marvel comic stories aren't super dark and gritty stories. Though I mean there are plenty that are. Look at how dark and violent Ultimates is. Ultimates was something Zak Penn talked about being a major influence when he was working on The Avengers and that sounded terrible. Justice League stories generally aren't dark and gritty either.

And if it's that important to you, the MCU shared universe has that. Daredevil, Jessica Jones and now Luke Cage all on Netflix. All of which are really darker and more violent than anything depicted in Zack Snyder's movies. Jessica Jones actually addresses rape and sexual violence. All the shows are TV-MA.

That tone works for Daredevil because of the setting of Hell's Kitchen, and Daredevil getting revamped in the 80s by Frank Miller, and the stories became much darker and grittier and that worked for Daredevil. It helped his series stand out a lot more and differentiated his comic.

Audiences weren't crazy about it with Man of Steel. And then it was doubled down for Batman v Superman and it was rejected there as well. Audiences showed up and were ready to get on board and love it too. But then case in point, 70 percent drop in the second weekend.

You have to find a balance. I feel like Civil War and Winter Soldier are pretty balanced. To me they are pretty serious films with serious stakes. They aren't borderline action comedies. They are straight action-adventure movies.

Some great points being made all around here


I've got some great news: Marvel has created a string of critically lauded Netflix series that fit your exact criteria. A healthy shared universe indeed!

-Can we stop pretending like Netflix counts? Leaving all of their dark and gritty shows on Netflix isn't a diverse franchise. It's an attempt at having their cake and eating it too.

Secondly, BvS didn't fail because of the tone, it failed because it wasn't a good movie. TWS was a major success with a much more serious tone than most Marvel films, but starting with Civil War you can tell the Russos are slowly being dragged into the fold of the formula.

Guardians was a lot more jokey than any SW movie, even TFA. But I didn't have a problem with the humour in Guardians as it was a part of what made the movie so good and helped us get into the characters. Gunns humour is great .

The humor works for the most part in Guardians, outside of the infamous dance off. But the Guardians are inherently comedy-based characters and Gunn was mostly able to keep the dramatic moments and comedic beats seperate, outside of the afore-mentioned dance-off.

 

[Zarex]

Why doesn't Netflix "count"? My guess is a good number of fans would prefer their street level heroes explored on the small screen with the comic book spectacle featured at the cineplex. I don't like Marvel selling "It's all connected!" and providing "It's not completely contradictory!", but I have no problem whatsoever with Marvel using the most appropriate media to tell their stories.

"Did you smile during the dance off?" should be incorporated into the Turing test.

 

[TeeKay]

In what way were the Russos Being slowly dragged into the fold of the formula in CW? CW didn't follow the tradinitional CBM trope of having heroes fight each other and then team up at the end to fight another big bad. They subverted expectations in that regard.

And why doesn't Netflic count? Last time I checked it is part of the MCU.