James Bond: 007 - Spectre - Part 10

[BobJM]

Her not being a field agent anymore means she can't use a gun ever again? Even as they setup the fail as the 5 of them vs. the world? Because M isn't a field agent anymore either and he gets involved because it is necessary.

You can be disappointed that she didn't have a gun, but it's not a detriment to the story that she wasn't involved in the fight.

In SF, she decided against being a field agent and this film continued with that characterization.

 

[The Guard]

You know that the writing is poor when people have to keep coming up with "maybes" to try and explain things because the movie cannot be bothered to.

And chalk me up as someone who's also disappointed in Moneypenny's role here, especially given what was set up in SF.

Ambiguity is not necessarily poor writing. It's actually rather clever. They wanted to tie things to SPECTRE, but by not presenting details, they allow for open interpretation of exactly what that entails and means.

Moneypenny ended SKYFALL not wanting to be in the field anymore. She's a secretary (M's secretary is a pretty big deal, I would think) and Bond's confidante, which was also set up in SKYFALL and developed further here.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No. I am not.

I have only pointed out that not everything has to be taken a single way.

I have not said that the possibilities I have pointed out are what happens. Only that they are possibilities.



That doesn't mean he might not have been or that him being revealed to have done so is illogical in any real sense.



I'm aware that they changed this. Them involving SPECTRE does not mean that Silva's own personal mission of revenge is erased. He still went on it.



Pretty sure Blofeld means he's waiting for James like, right then and there. Partially because he's actually physically waiting for him when he shows up at the meeting and at the compound. And if he was waiting for James, maybe he got a perverse thrill seeing Bond cheat death over and over.

Speaking of what makes sense...it actually, even with Blofeld's hatred of Bond, makes less sense to keep Bond alive. It makes more sense to have Bond killed or let him be killed. Blofeld's decision to keep Bond alive and not just kill him right away is an emotional one, and costs him dearly.

That is the whole point. Blofeld is deranged over Bond, which is why he does what he does. That is exactly why he wouldn't let someone randomly kill him. He is emotionally invested.

And he didn't mean right here, that moment. It is exactly why he says the meeting is finally happening, because he has been waiting years for it. It is exactly why Bond knows who he is and has Moneypenny run a search on him during the chase.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

So is anyone tracking box office results for the U.S?

Usually people in bigger comic sections here would be all over that sort of thing. Almost minute by minute results.

The film did an estimated 73mil which is down from Skyfall's 88mil. It wasn't expected to beat Skyfall's gross but a lot of predictions did have it cracking 75-80mil. I don't think that anybody sees the opening as a horrible failure or anything but a little below expected. The real test are going to be it's legs and personally I don't think the legs are going to be all that great but I could be wrong.

 

[Loki882]

SF set Moneypenny up with a desk job away from the action. Her role seems perfectly in line with that story arc

OR SF could have set up Moneypenny to be M's assistant/bodyguard, his last line of defense (which is actually far more interesting). And that's one of my other problems with all of this. The "logic" seems to be "well it was this way in the old films, so it MUST be this way now." And it's a "logic" that I just don't agree with. Moneypenny was a secretary in the older films, so freaking what? That means that that's all she can be now, no absolutely not. Especially since her backstory in SF is so much different.

It's nostalgia purely for nostalgia's sake. And it's BORING!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You can be disappointed that she didn't have a gun, but it's not a detriment to the story that she wasn't involved in the fight.

In SF, she decided against being a field agent and this film continued with that characterization.

I thought it hurt the film because it was another logic fail. Especially when Moneypenny was making a big deal out of helping James.

 

[The Guard]

C'mon, people, if you're gonna take SPECTRE to the woodshed for plotholes, or convenient plot devices such as ludicrous hacking, do I really need to dig this up? http://movieplotholes.com/skyfall.html

Seems like everyone is forgetting about it.

Rose colored glasses, maybe.

SKYFALL was a good movie because it was solidly written and very well executed, not because the writing or concepts within it were anything incredible. There's plenty of convenience, contrivance and ridiculous things going on in that film as well.

 

[Gold Samurai]

The film did an estimated 73mil which is down from Skyfall's 88mil. It wasn't expected to beat Skyfall's gross but a lot of predictions did have it cracking 75-80mil. I don't think that anybody sees the opening as a horrible failure or anything but a little below expected. The real test are going to be it's legs and personally I don't think the legs are going to be all that great but I could be wrong.

It has a chance to beat the Chilean miners movie this Friday the 13th.

It won't have a chance on November 20th with Hunger games part 2

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You know that the writing is poor when people have to keep coming up with "maybes" to try and explain things because the movie cannot be bothered to.

And chalk me up as someone who's also disappointed in Moneypenny's role here, especially given what was set up in SF.

Yep.

 

[The Guard]

That is the whole point. Blofeld is deranged over Bond, which is why he does what he does. That is exactly why he wouldn't let someone randomly kill him. He is emotionally invested.

I don't think we're meant to believe everything Blofeld does is only because of Bond. I don't think SPECTRE would stomach a leader with that narrow a focus.

And he didn't mean right here, that moment. It is exactly why he says the meeting is finally happening, because he has been waiting years for it. It is exactly why Bond knows who he is and has Moneypenny run a search on him during the chase.

All of which does not preclude James Bond from being killed and not a problem anymore. Blofeld couldn't possibly know Bond would survive EVERY mission...what, was he protecting him, too?

 

[Frankeh]

I'm not saying both Skyfall and Spectre don't deserve crap for their sloppy writing, because they do, but y'all are acting as if those defending the script for this film are making up excuses when likely to defend Skyfall's script any of us would have to do the same. People just happened to connect more with the former, but that has no bearing on the script itself.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

It has a chance to beat the Chilean miners movie this Friday the 13th.

It won't have a chance on November 20th with Hunger games part 2

It should be number one next week because the lack of competition and Peanuts should continue to do well.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

C'mon, people, if you're gonna take SPECTRE to the woodshed for plotholes, or convenient plot devices such as ludicrous hacking, do I really need to dig this up? http://movieplotholes.com/skyfall.html

Seems like everyone is forgetting about it.

Did you read this? Because I just did. Silva's plan is bonkers, I have always said this. It is why I prefer Casino Royale. That and Vesper's relationship.

The rest of those "plot holes" actually show a lack of understanding. Saying Moneypenny could have shot again shows a lack of knowledge of how assault rifles act over distance and the fact that Bond and the assassin were on a moving train. She was also in shock from shooting Bond.

The point of Bond's plan in he third act is to get Silva isolated. This makes sense after what happened at the end of the second act. Namely, he disappeared. He gave Silva the "advantage" as to give him a reason to come out of hiding.

By the way, James thought his gun collection would be there, which of course turned out to be wrong.

 

[Schlosser85]

Also, you actually just made me realize something. How in the heck does that work? Blofeld seem to have one personal life mission and it involves torturing and killing James Bond. And there you have Silva offering Bond the same life he has. So even if he is just allied with SPECTRE, how does that work exactly?

Depends on how closely affiliated Silva and Blofeld were. If Silva was just receiving funding/manpower from Blofeld, it doesn't mean Silva was privy to Blofeld's personal Bond obsession, or that Silva would have even cared what Blofeld wanted regarding Bond.

Silva was obsessed with M, and Blofeld was obsessed with Bond.

 

[The Guard]

Kind of hard to defend James not just having M put on lockdown and protected in SKYFALL. She would have been much safer with a bunch of heavily armed MI6 agents protecting her. I suppose there's an aspect of "James only trusts himself" to the whole thing.

Luring Silva out notwithstanding, there were probably better ways to go about it.

It was a pretty stupid, reckless plan, but I think they both knew that.

 

[Mysteryman]

I was afraid that the Peanuts movie would be eclipsed by Spectre.
I am very glad that it wasn't.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think we're meant to believe everything Blofeld does is only because of Bond. I don't think SPECTRE would stomach a leader with that narrow a focus.

SPECTRE is afraid of him. Again, made very clear in the meeting scene.

All of which does not preclude James Bond from being killed and not a problem anymore. Blofeld couldn't possibly know Bond would survive EVERY mission...what, was he protecting him, too?

It does when he owns the organization trying to kill Bond over and over again.

And who knows, apparently the only missions Bond has ever gone on involve SPECTRE. Casino Royale PTS excluded. Remember, the sequel-like nature of CR/QoS and Skyfall/SPECTRE actually shrinks the timeline of what is happening down a lot.

 

[Schlosser85]

Kind of hard to defend James not just having M put on lockdown and protected in SKYFALL. She would have been much safer with a bunch of heavily armed MI6 agents protecting her.

"Luring him out" notwithstanding, there were probably better ways to go about it.

It was a pretty stupid, reckless plan, but I think they both knew that.

Yea, I don't see how going out into the middle of nowhere to play Home Alone with Bond, an old woman, and an old man versus a team of mercenaries was giving them "the advantage".

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Depends on how closely affiliated Silva and Blofeld were. If Silva was just receiving funding/manpower from Blofeld, it doesn't mean Silva was privy to Blofeld's personal Bond obsession, or that Silva would have even cared what Blofeld wanted regarding Bond.

Silva was obsessed with M, and Blofeld was obsessed with Bond.

But this movie goes out of its way to show that they know what is going on at all times. Remember the tapes they show? Blofeld showing Swann her father's video? Blofeld was keeping tabs on Bond, he wouldn't know he was suddenly mixed up with Silva, especially as a large portion of Silva's plan was Bond?

 

[The Guard]

SPECTRE is afraid of him. Again, made very clear in the meeting scene.

What I recall is that it's made clear he will sanction people who fail.

I don't see everyone afraid of him. Some of them are nervous. Plenty of them are kind of "Well, it's business as usual here at SPECTRE".

It does when he owns the organization trying to kill Bond over and over again.

Then that would suggest that, in terms of internal logic, at the time, Bond surviving was not a priority.

And who knows, apparently the only missions Bond has ever gone on involve SPECTRE. Casino Royale PTS excluded. Remember, the sequel-like nature of CR/QoS and Skyfall/SPECTRE actually shrinks the timeline of what is happening down a lot.

Ok, so what prevents Bond from dying in a car crash, or of other natural causes? Blofeld cannot possibly know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bond will survive to a certain point in time when they can arbitrarily meet.

My point is, for any tactician worth their salt, circumstances can change, plans can change, and people can adapt to changing elements.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yea, I don't see how going out into the middle of nowhere to play Home Alone with Bond, an old woman, and an old man versus a team of mercenaries was giving them "the advantage".

James didn't give himself the advantage. For the plan to work he had to give the advantage to Silva, otherwise Silva wouldn't come after him. They explain it. Bond wants Q to lead Silva to him, but without making it obvious he was doing so. Bond knows that Silva will disappear again if he doesn't feel like he can accomplish his goal, which is killing M. So they give him the chance.

M is bait, and she knows this. She is prepared for it. She is willing to die, because she knows this is her fault.

Bond's only trump cards in that scene were his car and the fact that he knew about the tunnel. Both of which Silva wouldn't have known about or been expecting.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What I recall is that it's made clear he will sanction people who fail.

I don't see everyone afraid of him. Some of them are nervous. Plenty of them are kind of "Well, it's business as usual here at SPECTRE".

Are you suggesting that Blofeld isn't in charge? Because he is clearly in charge.

Then that would suggest that, in terms of internal logic, at the time, Bond surviving was not a priority.

No, what it shows is the problem with the retcon.

Ok, so what prevents Bond from dying in a car crash, or of other natural causes? Blofeld cannot possibly know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bond will survive to a certain point in time when they can arbitrarily meet.

My point is, for any tactician worth their salt, circumstances can change, plans can change, and people can adapt to changing elements.

We are clearly talking about things in Blofeld's control. Placed in his control by the retcon. None of this is a problem if they don't retcon it. There is no maybes without the retcon.

 

[Frankeh]

Did you read this? Because I just did. Silva's plan is bonkers, I have always said this. It is why I prefer Casino Royale. That and Vesper's relationship.

The rest of those "plot holes" actually show a lack of understanding. Saying Moneypenny could have shot again shows a lack of knowledge of how assault rifles act over distance and the fact that Bond and the assassin were on a moving train. She was also in shock from shooting Bond.

The point of Bond's plan in he third act is to get Silva isolated. This makes sense after what happened at the end of the second act. Namely, he disappeared. He gave Silva the "advantage" as to give him a reason to come out of hiding.

By the way, James thought his gun collection would be there, which of course turned out to be wrong.

Yes I have. Most of those points are valid to me. Doesn't the whole second half of the film revolve around Silva's plan? Seems significant that the plan was ludicrous. It didn't bother most people because they connected with the film, but that doesn't negate the ludicrousness. And I remember pretty vividly when the movie came out there was a huge discussion over James Bond's third act plan being ridiculous.

 

[The Guard]

Are you suggesting that Blofeld isn't in charge? Because he is clearly in charge.

Where on Earth do you get that out of what I just said?

Being in charge and every single person in the room being afraid of you are very different things.

No, what it shows is the problem with the retcon.

I'm sorry they didn't hop in a time machine and go back and insert small hints at the events of this movie, not knowing they would have the right to use SPECTRE years later, into the previous films, to satisfy your black and white mindset about what a character in the future film would be thinking and wanting during those films. I really am.

It's a movie. These are issues you run into making movies. Granted, these are issues you assume exist...

We are clearly talking about things in Blofeld's control. Placed in his control by the retcon. None of this is a problem if they don't retcon it. There is no maybes without the retcon.

Again, you assume that Blofeld didn't, at some point, want Bond dead. Seeing as how he wants him dead in SPECTRE, I don't see that as a stretch.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes I have. Most of those points are valid to me. Doesn't the whole second half of the film revolve around Silva's plan? Seems significant that the plan was ludicrous. It didn't bother most people because they connected with the film, but that doesn't negate the ludicrousness. And I remember pretty vividly when the movie came out there was a huge discussion over James Bond's third act plan being ridiculous.

The only part of Silva's plan that is "ludicrous" is the train. It makes perfect sense that he wanted to be captured. He knew once he blew up MI6 HQ they would go to the bunker, as that is standard protocol. So, he just needed a way into the bunker. James then presented himself. The scene with James actually emphasizes how fast Silva can get these things done and he knew James was coming. It isn't a short boat trip.

I have always loved the third act, my favorite in the series, and found the logic very simple to follow. Is the plan high risk? Most definitely but they present why it is what it in the movie. Better to confront Silva while you know he is coming then waiting for him to kill you at any random moment.