Guardians of the Galaxy James gunn fired!!! - Part 1

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If all it takes to pushes one to a group populated with racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots is people not looking at the "nuance" or "context" of your a racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted "jokes", then perhaps that person is a racist, sexist, homophobic, bigot. Lets take James Gunn here. as an example. Do you think he is suddenly going to join the alt-right now, and if not why?

Do you not see how black and white you are making a situation and not taking into account actually how it transpired? Do you understand how your approach to such problems creates more tribalism? When you start labelling people as this, that or the other when they themselves don't feel that way you are going to cause friction, and friction leads to conflict. You might actually be surprised how much more productive you could can get when you actually listen to the other side as awful as uncomfortable as it may be. I've seen instances of people who where diehard KKK members who turned their back on that group because someone actually listened to them. The problem with your approach Darth is it's an all or nothing attitude, an attitude that's more interested in tearing down that it is in changing minds. The world doesn't work like that. No one in this forum is an angel, we've all said and dumb things in our life, but that doesn't mean we can't learn and become better for it. So, the question is are you interested in changing minds or would you prefer to just reject everyone who doesn't align with your viewpoint?
 
Because he is still a good if very flawed person, who in spite of his shortcomings can grow and change... Kind of like James Gunn...

(It's okay for heroes to not always be right.)
But he doesn't in the first movie. That is according to you. So we are humanizing toxic masculinity?

I will agree with you about the Mantis submissive aspect, although I think folks are being overly sensitive with his calling her ugly when the implicit joke is that she is attractive and he is... certainly an acquired taste, and like an overly sensitive man child, gets super defensive when she only mildly suggests "I'm not attracted to [your body type.]

But I agree the Guardians weren't quite themselves in Infinity War. Except for their intro to "Rubber Band Man" that was great. Then after I saw the movie, we discover that James Gunn wrote that sequence and picked the song. It makes sense. I guess that will be the last scene we see him have direct influence on of the Guardians if they wind up tossing out his script if they delay it some years and redesign the sequel from the ground up.
This is the issue with making Drax so literal. You have to take everything he says at face value, unless he specifically tells you he is joking. My general issue would be with just how he treats Mantis at all. Drax comes off like an ******* Vol. 2 and his punching bag is Mantis, like his punching bag in GotG was Gamora.

I preferred the Guardians in Infinity War. I actually felt like that movie made them more likable, which pointing out the major flaw in Star-Lord as a person, way better then anything in GotG. I think it made it clear in a way that made me dislike the character retroactively.
 
Disney heads go together and said look there's controversy! The decision is final but let's just leak out that a meeting is going to take place for re-hiring.
Of course cue the "unfollow" news lines and a quick retraction on the re-hire.

All Disney heads have to do to get rid of turmoil within their ranks is just say hey we're holding a meeting once again and then see the whole "support" thing work the other way again.:hmr:

I'm starting to think stars are responding to a private e-mail Disney sent out to them following the letter from the Gaurdians cast to see what they think or maybe one of them really is dead set on killing the article about re-hiring Gunn.

Evans, Hemsworth, Hiddleston, Downey Jr., Don Cheadle, Tom Holland, Zendaya all at once and suddenly now more evidence to support this notion as Chadwick Boseman, Michael B. Jordan, Lupita Nyong’o, Danai Gurira and Letitia Wright. Andy Serkis have joined in as well.

Coordinated group dynamic until the pendulum swings the other way then will go back/forth to lesser extent until remains still...
 
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Do you not see how black and white you are making a situation and not taking into account actually how it transpired? Do you understand how your approach to such problems creates more tribalism? When you start labelling people as this, that or the other when they themselves don't feel that way you are going to cause friction, and friction leads to conflict. You might actually be surprised how much more productive you could can get when you actually listen to the other side as awful as uncomfortable as it may be. I've seen instances of people who where diehard KKK members who turned their back on that group because someone actually listened to them. The problem with your approach Darth is it's an all or nothing attitude, an attitude that's more interested in tearing down that it is in changing minds. The world doesn't work like that. No one in this forum is an angel, we've all said and dumb things in our life, but that doesn't mean we can't learn and become better for it. So, the question is are you interested in changing minds or would you prefer to just reject everyone who doesn't align with your viewpoint?
No, my issue is the normalizing of behavior that resulted in their being two sides in the first place. The idea that it is okay to be awful, and because you yourself are trying to empathetic, you need to live with awfulness. If a person can't look at racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. and not realize it is a problem, I can't look that person in the face and tell them it's all good. I am not going to continually extend a hand to someone who thinks its okay to tell me to die because of the color of my skin. That's saying things that make women I know uncomfortable is okay, because its not okay. I empathize, but with victims. Not with people who are perpetrators nor those who support them and allow them to exist.

Even in this example with James Gunn, he doesn't see that either. He is not okay with that culture, which is what got him in trouble in the first place. And if anything, I support that from him. That he has been making an effort online to fight back against that, even if it wasn't in the most civil way all the time.
 
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But he doesn't in the first movie. That is according to you. So we are humanizing toxic masculinity?

I mean... yes. It was an aspect of the character in the first movie, and an aspect of many protagonists in 21st century entertainment. The second one took a more critical look at this trope, something very few MCU movies do. Would you rather they not acknowledge it and pretend it's all-fine and only give it surface level consideration like Tony Stark's vaguely hinted at alcoholism or (at least pre-Civil War plot convenience) libertarian streak?

This is the issue with making Drax so literal. You have to take everything he says at face value, unless he specifically tells you he is joking. My general issue would be with just how he treats Mantis at all. Drax comes off like an ******* Vol. 2 and his punching bag is Mantis, like his punching bag in GotG was Gamora.

I preferred the Guardians in Infinity War. I actually felt like that movie made them more likable, which pointing out the major flaw in Star-Lord as a person, way better then anything in GotG. I think it made it clear in a way that made me dislike the character retroactively.

I mean, other than Gamora they were all more generic and had their sharp edges sanded off, including Peter Quill whose big mistake is an act of anger after losing a loved one, not because he is a preternatural screwup. The Guardians have soul in their two movies, they're mostly just kooky and eccentrics to bounce jokes off of in Infinity War, in that kind of benign bland way that sticks to most of the Avengers characters not named Tony or Steve.
 
I'm starting to think stars are responding to a private e-mail Disney sent out to them following the letter from the Gaurdians cast to see what they think or maybe one of them really is dead set on killing the article about re-hiring Gunn.

Evans, Hemsworth, Hiddleston, Downey Jr., Don Cheadle, Tom Holland, Zendaya all at once and suddenly now more evidence to support this notion as Chadwick Boseman, Michael B. Jordan, Lupita Nyong’o, Danai Gurira and Letitia Wright. Andy Serkis have joined in as well.

Coordinated group dynamic until the pendulum swings the other way then will go back/forth to lesser extent until remains still...
Evans and Cheadle both said they never followed him. So how many of these people actually ever followed Gunn?
 
I mean... yes. It was an aspect of the character in the first movie, and an aspect of many protagonists in 21st century entertainment. The second one took a more critical look at this trope, something very few MCU movies do. Would you rather they not acknowledge it and pretend it's all-fine and only give it surface level consideration like Tony Stark's vaguely hinted at alcoholism or (at least pre-Civil War plot convenience) libertarian streak?
I feel like Thor: Ragnarok actually gets into it quite well, while never making someone like Valkyrie the butt of sexist jokes.

What prefer are characters like T'Challa and Ethan Hunt, and even Thor who are flawed, can discuss issues, without themselves being creepy or just bad to women. Because the message you send with a hero is this is what you should aspire to. But then again I grew up a fan of Luke Skywalker far more then Han Solo.

I mean, other than Gamora they were all more generic and had their sharp edges sanded off, including Peter Quill whose big mistake is an act of anger after losing a loved one, not because he is a preternatural screwup. The Guardians have soul in their two movies, they're mostly just kooky and eccentrics to bounce jokes off of in Infinity War, in that kind of benign bland way that sticks to most of the Avengers characters not named Tony or Steve.
I am not a fan of Gunn's female characters. He doesn't really let them have fun the way he lets his lovable male losers have fun. And the issue with Star-Lord comes with Thor, not Thanos.
 
Evans and Cheadle both said they never followed him. So how many of these people actually ever followed Gunn?

Good Question. I wish the "source" of this news pertaining to them can be traced as social media reporting on the web nowadays is an unfocused wheel of spinning contextualization where actual fact or link of 2 separate facts is lost as lobotomy seems to ensue from simply reading it.

Evan's commented someone didn't do their homework or trying to stir stuff up OR maybe they unfollowed him on another social media platform (but I don't think they'd bother to correct if that is the case).

I guess the real question then is what's the fulcrum point behind this pushback?



No idea what to make of that...
 
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Good Question. I wish the "source" of this news pertaining to them can be traced as social media reporting on the web nowadays is an unfocused wheel of spinning contextualization where actual fact or link of 2 separate facts is lost as lobotomy seems to ensue from simply reading it.

Evan's commented someone didn't do their homework or trying to stir stuff up OR maybe they unfollowed him on another social media platform but I don't think they'd bother to correct if that is the case.

I guess the real question then is what's the fulcrum point behind this pushback?
My question is there a push back, or is someone making it up.
 
No, my issue is the normalizing of behavior that resulted in their being two sides in the first place. The idea that it is okay to be awful, and because you yourself are trying to empathetic, you need to live with awfulness. If a person can't look at racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. and not realize it is a problem, I can't look that person in the face and tell them it's all good. I am not going to continually extend a hand to someone who thinks its okay to tell me to die because of the color of my skin. That's saying things that make women I know uncomfortable is okay, because its a okay. I empathize, but with victims. Not with people who are perpetrators nor those who support them and allow them to exist.

Even in this example with James Gunn, he doesn't see that either. He is not okay with that culture, which is what got him in trouble in the first place. And if anything, I support that from him. That he has been making an effort online to fight back against that, even if it wasn't in the most civil way all the time.

You have to get to the crux of why their being awful in the first place in order to turn them around. I'm not saying it's easy, but that's the only solution. If the response is to just fight back equally as hard nothing will get done.
 
You have to get to the crux of why their being awful in the first place in order to turn them around. I'm not saying it's easy, but that's the only solution. If the response is to just fight back equally as hard nothing will get done.
That is the entire point though. When people who think the good old days of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. is the way forward, what do you do? Especially considering the methods of the alt-right.

You can say the left eats itself, and I don't disagree. But what is the point of principles if you don't follow them, even when its someone you like?
 
So I just watched the Sam Bee segment... Holy **** it sounded like she was talking about Gunn specifically during the Terry Crews bit. :eek:
 
My question is there a push back, or is someone making it up.

The reports lurked their way onto the web last night. I don't know... Blowing stuff out of proportion perhaps.

I don't have twitter so don't know how people check if someone's hit "unfollow" or never has followed at all. There is a "wayback machine" I've heard so fact checking would be secondary as whatever happened certainly has seemed to push Disney into the no rehire within a 24 hr period.

What's going on here with this reporting after meeting for re-hire announced is the main question... It could simply be Disney sending out an e-mail asking for feedback within it's staff resulting in bit of push back my initial guess.
 
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That is the entire point though. When people who think the good old days of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. is the way forward, what do you do? Especially considering the methods of the alt-right.

You can say the left eats itself, and I don't disagree. But what is the point of principles if you don't follow them, even when its someone you like?

But, again, you're making it sound far more simple than it is. In and amongst that group you've got people who feel like their being blamed for being male or being white or privileged or whatever the twitter crazies are accusing people of, they've developed their own victim mentality as a results of SJW types painting with such a board brush in the first place. This is exactly how tribalism develops. So what do you do? The first thing you have to do is stop the finger pointing, shaming and painting with a broad brush. You accept that sometimes people just **** up, but you also accept that not every situation is going to be the same. That requires being big enough to swallow your pride and treat the person on the other side as a human first.
 
How does Variety in the span of 24 hours go from "Disney is going to reinstate James Gunn" to "Disney has no plans to rehire Gunn?"
 
How does Variety in the span of 24 hours go from "Disney is going to reinstate James Gunn" to "Disney has no plans to rehire Gunn?"

Exactly what I was going on about in my posts above. I see I'm not the only one thinking this.

In slightly related news, Mike Colter's support I just noticed...

Hey James. I feel like in time they will reinstate you. Fingers crossed. I don’t feel like every past comment from years ago should be grounds for dismissal. Everyone is on notice now. You deserve a fresh start and a clean slate. And i bias bc you make great films https://www.cinemablend.com/news/24...-the-latest-marvel-actor-to-defend-james-gunn

No spin just shrugging emoji at end keeping it real. Great actor to be portraying Luke Cage.
 
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I care because I find judging people's morality based on a baker's dozen of gross jokes to be offensive. And I would have felt the same if this were Snyder, Scorsese or Uwe Boll.

Out of curiosity, were you defending Roseanne? I ask because when the shoe was on the other foot, Gunn himself had no problem participating in the Twitter mob attacking her, and declaring that ABC had the right to fire her for her Tweets, even if they were intended as a joke. Gunn helped create and perpetuate the atmosphere which got him fired, so it's pretty hypocritical to lament the politically charged atmosphere which he was in favor of when it was someone he disagreed with politically who was on the receiving end of the witch hunt.

And IMO, who cares who dug up the tweets? Nobody made him write them over a span of years, and nobody made him make pedophilia the primary focus of a large chunk of those tweets. Those were all his choices, and he would've suffered the same fate regardless of who dug up his tweets for whatever reason. The bigger concern is what they say about him, and why he kept returning to that topic over and over again. People focus on their interests. We write a lot here because we're interested in comic movies. So why does he write a lot about pedophilia if it isn’t because he’s preoccupied with the idea?

Given the things coming out of Hollywood the past few years, it’s not at all unreasonable to worry that a director who made numerous very public statements about acts of pedophilia over a number of years may not only be a pedophile, but may have acted on those urges. How many years did Bill Cosby get away with committing countless rapes before someone stepped forward to accuse him? How long did Bryan Singer get away with committing sexual abuse and assault? How long did Kevin Spacey get away with it? Harvey Weinstein’s behavior was an open secret in Hollywood, but nobody wanted to speak up about what he was doing, allowing him to victimize more women and ruin the lives of others.

They got away with all of that for years because of their celebrity (Partly because the victims were afraid of stepping forward and being crucified by fans like these, who put more value on the movies they watch than the lives destroyed by sex abusers). So when we start defending James Gunn on the basis of wanting to see him do another Guardians of the Galaxy movie, it’s sickening. The question shouldn’t be whether we get to see him do a Guardians movie again. It should be who’s looking into him to make sure that he hasn’t, in fact, been engaging in child sex abuse? That he doesn’t, in fact, have his home computer riddled with child porn?

One bad joke, two bad jokes, while disgusting, can be excusable. Everybody makes a bad off-hand joke from time to time. But he made these kinds of “jokes” for years on end. That is an unhealthy amount of preoccupation with the subject of pedophilia. And if he’s comfortable enough with the idea of pedophilia that he can make numerous very public tweets about the topic, then who knows what he’s comfortable with doing in his personal life?

Whether ABC was justified in firing Roseanne or not doesn’t really matter to me. But look at it this way: in the absolute worst case scenario, Roseanne is a racist who says mean things on tweets. That’s it. She doesn’t paint swastikas on synagogues, she doesn’t burn crosses in front of black churches, and she doesn’t engage in lynching’s. But worst case scenario when it comes to Gunn? He’s the latest Roman Polanski who smartened up about six years ago and stopped pointing neon signs which blatantly identified himself as a pedophile.

If ABC was right to fire Roseanne, then Disney is definitely right to fire James Gunn. Particularly if, worst comes to worst, those tweets are an inside look into who the real James Gunn really is, and he does turn out to have sex abuse scandals hiding in his closet, waiting to come out. Can you imagine how disastrous it’d be for Disney if they were to hire him back, only for a sex abuse victim to step forward and accuse Gunn? For Disney to ignore highly probably indicators that Gunn has a disturbing degree of interest in rape and child sex abuse, only to ignore that in the name of profit?

As for everything else, the degree to which people will defend and justify this sort of behavior is downright disgusting. I loved the first two Guardians, too, but I also liked the Polanski “Macbeth” movie. That doesn’t mean, though, that I want Polanski to get a pardon and start making movies again. I loved The Usual Suspects, but that doesn’t mean Singer and Spacey should get off Scott free. I loved The Cosby Show, but that doesn’t mean that Bill Cosby should skate. I love Tarantino’s movies, but that doesn’t mean Weinstein should get a pass. At a bare minimum, Gunn spent years making jokes which helped normalize pedophilia and child sex abuse, and he’s got a bunch of people making excuses for that sort of thing and saying it’s okay. Go tell a kid that it’s okay for someone to joke about a grown person sexually abusing them and raping them. Go tell that to a parent. You won’t because you know that it’s not okay. And on that basis alone he deserves firing. He spent years normalizing pedophilia and now he’s got a bunch of people trying to selfishly justify normalizing it in the name of a movie.

And that’s at a minimum. Once again, we’re talking about someone who took a perverse satisfaction from making pedophiliac comments for years in public. For someone to be that focused on the topic, it has to be something they’re into. And if Gunn is a pedophile, then he’s acted on those urges in some way over the years, whether it’s being in possession of child porn or going to the lengths of a Bryan Singer or Roman Polanski. So yeah, I’ll reiterate my prior statement that the concern shouldn’t be what his next movie will be. The concern should be where’s law enforcement checking him out?
 
How does Variety in the span of 24 hours go from "Disney is going to reinstate James Gunn" to "Disney has no plans to rehire Gunn?"

Both views get a lot of hits and make them money. So one day do one the next do the other, win win
 
No, #MeToo is about the culture that makes those things okay. The culture that supports the idea that saying homophobic, racist, sexist things is fine because its "just a joke" is exactly why Trump exist. Its the idea that saying these things doesn't somehow breed a culture where these things are okay. If we take James Gunn at his word, he realizes that was an issue and has grown out of it. Thus showing it was an issue.

The supporters of the MeToo movement shouldn't allow it to evolve into an instrument for settling personal vendettas and taking down those with whom we disagree politically. What's next for this "formerly sex crimes now culture war movement"? Winning the war against raised toilet seats?

Making jokes about raping women straight and raping children is male behaviour?

Making awful jokes about taboo subjects is absolutely male behavior. It's actually human behavior, to be honest. But we gotta stomp that out! Who's thinking about all the children who were damaged by following an obscure indie director's tweets years ago? They're the REAL victims!
 
That was for the blog posts. The really sexist, homophobic and I believe racist blog posts. Its right there in the story. It was for the blog posts, not his tweets. Why do people keep mixing up the two?

It literally links to another article about his, "The 50 Superheroes You Most Want to Have Sex With" list.
they are not. :cwink:
 
The supporters of the MeToo movement shouldn't allow it to evolve into an instrument for settling personal vendettas and taking down those with whom we disagree politically. What's next for this "formerly sex crimes now culture war movement"? Winning the war against raised toilet seats?
The issue here is not #MeToo. The issue here is that James Gunn decided to write this stuff in the first place. Even according to him, it was wrong. Why do you ignore that part?

Making awful jokes about taboo subjects is absolutely male behavior. It's actually human behavior, to be honest. But we gotta stomp that out! Who's thinking about all the children who were damaged by following an obscure indie director's tweets years ago? They're the REAL victims!
It amazes me that you wrote that to a female poster, knowing that Gunn has plenty of "jokes" about raping women. Especially as in the post you quoted brings up James Gunn writing about Tony Stark ****ing Batwoman straight was clearly an issue. Especially for the poster with the Batwoman avatar. Maybe it isn't just the children that people are looking out for.

And yeah, you totally went with locker room talk. Amazing.
 
How does Variety in the span of 24 hours go from "Disney is going to reinstate James Gunn" to "Disney has no plans to rehire Gunn?"

They wanted people to read both articles even though there was no change. We moved from it is possible James Gunn will be reinstated all the way to to ......it is possible James Gunn will be reinstated

Out of curiosity, were you defending Roseanne? I ask because when the shoe was on the other foot, Gunn himself had no problem participating in the Twitter mob attacking her, and declaring that ABC had the right to fire her for her Tweets, even if they were intended as a joke. Gunn helped create and perpetuate the atmosphere which got him fired, so it's pretty hypocritical to lament the politically charged atmosphere which he was in favor of when it was someone he disagreed with politically who was on the receiving end of the witch hunt.

The Roseanne thing and the Gunn situations are absolutely nothing alike.
Both tweeted stupid stuff.
Roseanne did it now. Gunn did it years ago.
Roseanne lost the support of her cast and crew. Gunn maintained support.

And IMO, who cares who dug up the tweets? Nobody made him write them over a span of years, and nobody made him make pedophilia the primary focus of a large chunk of those tweets. Those were all his choices, and he would've suffered the same fate regardless of who dug up his tweets for whatever reason. The bigger concern is what they say about him, and why he kept returning to that topic over and over again. People focus on their interests. We write a lot here because we're interested in comic movies. So why does he write a lot about pedophilia if it isn’t because he’s preoccupied with the idea?

Because its not true. He had over 10,000 tweets and the ones that even remotely involved criminal sexual behavior were less than 20.


Given the things coming out of Hollywood the past few years, it’s not at all unreasonable to worry that a director who made numerous very public statements about acts of pedophilia over a number of years may not only be a pedophile, but may have acted on those urges. How many years did Bill Cosby get away with committing countless rapes before someone stepped forward to accuse him? How long did Bryan Singer get away with committing sexual abuse and assault? How long did Kevin Spacey get away with it? Harvey Weinstein’s behavior was an open secret in Hollywood, but nobody wanted to speak up about what he was doing, allowing him to victimize more women and ruin the lives of others.

Bill Cosby is a great example. He got away with being a serial rapist for years in large part because he presented himself as one of the good guys. He looked down at comedians that worked "blue". No jokes about rape, incest or pedophilia for Daddy Bill! Pull up your pants and turn down that rap music, young man!

I mean, it almost like bad jokes and bad behavior are completely unrelated!

It should be who’s looking into him to make sure that he hasn’t, in fact, been engaging in child sex abuse? That he doesn’t, in fact, have his home computer riddled with child porn?

And if he’s comfortable enough with the idea of pedophilia that he can make numerous very public tweets about the topic, then who knows what he’s comfortable with doing in his personal life?

That is an unhealthy amount of preoccupation with the subject of pedophilia. And if he’s comfortable enough with the idea of pedophilia that he can make numerous very public tweets about the topic, then who knows what he’s comfortable with doing in his personal life?

But worst case scenario when it comes to Gunn? He’s the latest Roman Polanski who smartened up about six years ago and stopped pointing neon signs which blatantly identified himself as a pedophile.

Particularly if, worst comes to worst, those tweets are an inside look into who the real James Gunn really is, and he does turn out to have sex abuse scandals hiding in his closet, waiting to come out. Can you imagine how disastrous it’d be for Disney if they were to hire him back, only for a sex abuse victim to step forward and accuse Gunn? For Disney to ignore highly probably indicators that Gunn has a disturbing degree of interest in rape and child sex abuse, only to ignore that in the name of profit?

For someone to be that focused on the topic, it has to be something they’re into. And if Gunn is a pedophile, then he’s acted on those urges in some way over the years, whether it’s being in possession of child porn or going to the lengths of a Bryan Singer or Roman Polanski

You have mentioned pedophilia more times in one post than Gunn did in over a dozen years. Should we be looking into your behavior?

These baseless accusations are far more disgusting than anything Mr. Gunn has ever tweeted.
 
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