Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[HandOfFate]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ShadowBoxing01/Phoenix1.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ShadowBoxing01/Phoenix2.jpg

This is the reason I have always dislike the whole Jean is the Phoenix Force storyline. If Jean is the Phoenix Force then she a killer of billions of sentient beings and should not be consider a hero. IIRC, this is also one of the reasons why Jim Shooter ordered her death in the first place.

I don’t mind her tapping into the Force or even becoming one with the Force but saying that the Phoenix Force has always been Jean in a big mistake in my opinion. Jean is one of my favorite X-Men and should not be connect to the death of billions of life forms, no matter how Marvel tries to spin the storyline.

 

[Intheknow101]

She was legally INSANE at the time, driven there by Mastermind/Emma.
She paid a price by killing herself and then helping Death himself build the towers for the D'Bari to to live in for Eternity in the after life. It is like their version of heaven.
She's a hero because rather than living to become a god and do whatever she pleases, whenever she pleases, and gets whatever she wants, she killed herself and died a human. She's a hero because she saved the ENTIRE universe more than once.

If you consider her a bad guy (which I don't consider since she was insane), Marvel doesn't seem to have a problem with bad guys as X-Men. Juggernaut, Sabretooth, Mystique, Lady Mastermind, Emma, etc. Their whole rogue's gallery are practically X-Men now.

 

[Valechan]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ShadowBoxing01/Phoenix1.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ShadowBoxing01/Phoenix2.jpg

This is the reason I have always dislike the whole Jean is the Phoenix Force storyline. If Jean is the Phoenix Force then she a killer of billions of sentient beings and should not be consider a hero. IIRC, this is also one of the reasons why Jim Shooter ordered her death in the first place.

I don’t mind her tapping into the Force or even becoming one with the Force but saying that the Phoenix Force has always been Jean in a big mistake in my opinion. Jean is one of my favorite X-Men and should not be connect to the death of billions of life forms, no matter how Marvel tries to spin the storyline.

I so totally agree with you. It's what ruined the story for me. Besides it makes no sense whatsoever... how many times have we seen the Phoenix Force roaming the Universe WITHOUT Jean, countless of centuries before she was even conceived???? That's what sucks.

 

[Intheknow101]

I so totally agree with you. It's what ruined the story for me. Besides it makes no sense whatsoever... how many times have we seen the Phoenix Force roaming the Universe WITHOUT Jean, countless of centuries before she was even conceived???? That's what sucks.

It's called the white hot room, outside of conventional time and space. Everything is happening, has happened, and will happen there. Therefore once Jean became Phoenix she was always Phoenix.
For a better understanding, please read Brian Willy's and my post in the Phoenix Endsong is Amazing thread.

Guess what, Jean's displayed the phoenix raptor and the gold woman form even as a child. ALWAYS Phoenix.

 

[Optic Rage]

Why the hell did you create this thread????

Its the last thing we needed.

 

[Intheknow101]

Why the hell did you create this thread????

Its the last thing we needed.

Pandora's Box, oh no!! hehe

 

[Optic Rage]

Also i havent read the orginal saga in like 7 years...i need to go re read it one of the days.

Anyways i dont see why people blame jean for this when she was sleeping at the bottem of the atlantic as all this went on..right?

 

[Valechan]

The White Hot crap again... thing is there are so many things outside time and space that it is quite hard to believe that to be unique and true.

 

[Intheknow101]

Also i havent read the orginal saga in like 7 years...i need to go re read it one of the days.

Anyways i dont see why people blame jean for this when she was sleeping at the bottem of the atlantic as all this went on..right?

Her old body, but her essence was in the new body she created.

I'll quote the cycle from another thread:

THe white hot toom is outside of space and time. When Jean dies, she shatters into billions of pieces. THe pieces are supposed to come back and reform, but not all the pieces make it back "home." On their way back to reform with Jean, they can possess others.

Also they've established that Jean has a very definitive cycle. She often creates spares.
1) When she died for the first time on the shuttle she created a new body for herself and left her old body to heal in Jamaica bay just in case things go wrong, as a "second chance."

2) Upon killing herself on the moon and consequently creating an egg there, the shattered pieces went back to the body in the bay. Jean intially rejected the tainted parts of her, which went off to reanimate Madylene. The Fantastic Four prematurely awoken her. Jean was stronger, but was missing her telepathy. Upon Maddie's death Jean reabsorbed that part of herself.

3) Finally her last death in New X-Men 150, caused her pieces and essence to go to a spare egg/coccoon that she had created on the moon. With no one to awaken her she is in there for 150 years until the Dark Beast awakens her. Here we learn that the incubation process is very important, and that awaking her early leaves her without all of her memories and powers. It makes sense since there are many of her pieces that haven't come back to her, many of which contain certain memories or experiences.

The cycle encompasses many of aspects of mythological phoenix lore, as well as Kabbalistic influences.

 

[Optic Rage]

so her essence is in the egg on the moon at the moment then?

 

[Valechan]

No, her essence is suppossedly shattered... but it is very likely it will all be retconned when she comes back, so it's all wait and see...

 

[Intheknow101]

so her essence is in the egg on the moon at the moment then?

Would have been gathering there, but she was reconstituted prematurely by the Shiar and then shattered in Endsong. But she managed to come back together and is out finding the rest of her pieces.

 

[Optic Rage]

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Thanks for the reeducation on jean.

 

[javon]

I so totally agree with you. It's what ruined the story for me. Besides it makes no sense whatsoever... how many times have we seen the Phoenix Force roaming the Universe WITHOUT Jean, countless of centuries before she was even conceived???? That's what sucks.

I know! Jean was a sweet girl with a nice heart and that just goes down the drain if their just gonna say that the Phoenix was always Jean Grey.

 

[Intheknow101]

I know! Jean was a sweet girl with a nice heart and that just goes down the drain if their just gonna say that the Phoenix was always Jean Grey.

But Jean isn't just and shouldn't be just a sweet girl. These characters make us care about them because they are so realistic. She has her dark side and her good side. She embodies both the potential for creation and destruction, human and goddess, passion and compassion, etc. She's a seemily good person, with darker desires just like everyone. She tries her best to do the right thing, but sometimes her emotions get in the way. Especially since Jean is and always has been a very fiery, emotional person. If she's pissed or threatened, you're going to know about it. It's very realistic and interesting to have all these dichotomies. Multiple facets to the character.

 

[javon]

^ And can Phoenix absorb ANY form of energy? Because i never got how she could absorb energy from a star. And she has been known to absorb Storms lightning and other stuff.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Hahhahahaaaaa "Jean is realistic." HAHAHAhahahaaaaaa

I posted this on another thread, but I think I'm gonna say the same here too.
The best thing anyone ever did to Jean was killing her off. The worse thing is bringing her back over and over again. Even Marvel reconizes Jean and Phoenix to be a giant joke. Noone in their right mind takes it seriously.


Jean should have stayed dead after the DP saga. All the lessons learned from that went up in smoke because they can bring her back at any time. Talk about anti-clamatic (sp). Then they bring in the cheap imatations in Madalyne and Rachel. Ugg. It was just like whose the better Jean...uh the original isn't even that good. She barely has a personality as it is. WTF

And if Phoenix is all powerful and all knowing and closer to God than Jesus...why the heck does Jean spend alot of time decomposing.

Here's something to think about: Phoenix vs. Mainline Marvel Writers, Phoenix vs. The Stigma of Redundant Ressurections in the eyes of the General Public, Phoenix vs. Victor Newman, and the ultimate fight Phoenix vs. MARY SUE!

 

[javon]

Hahhahahaaaaa "Jean is realistic." HAHAHAhahahaaaaaa

I posted this on another thread, but I think I'm gonna say the same here too.
The best thing anyone ever did to Jean was killing her off. The worse thing is bringing her back over and over again. Even Marvel reconizes Jean and Phoenix to be a giant joke. Noone in their right mind takes it seriously.


Jean should have stayed dead after the DP saga. All the lessons learned from that went up in smoke because they can bring her back at any time. Talk about anti-clamatic (sp). Then they bring in the cheap imatations in Madalyne and Rachel. Ugg. It was just like whose the better Jean...uh the original isn't even that good. She barely has a personality as it is. WTF

And if Phoenix is all powerful and all knowing and closer to God than Jesus...why the heck does Jean spend alot of time decomposing.

Here's something to think about: Phoenix vs. Mainline Marvel Writers, Phoenix vs. The Stigma of Redundant Ressurections in the eyes of the General Public, Phoenix vs. Victor Newman, and the ultimate fight Phoenix vs. MARY SUE!

LMAO!!!

 

[Goddessreicho]

Seriously, whats the point of a freggin maryter if they DON'T STAY DEAD!

 

[Optic Rage]

I agree that it would of saved marvel alot of credibility if jean didnt come back.

The same go's for Pete.

 

[Goddessreicho]

As much as I love me some Russian metal....yeah its a sad truth.

You know Optic, I like you a little more and more with each post ;P

 

[HandOfFate]

I don't think it really Jean's fault. IMHO, she a really good character when she not the fiery bird of doom. Sadly the overdone Phoenix storyline has overshadow an otherwise great X-Man.

I really do like Jean but I feel that the Phoenix Force **** has hamper her growth as a viable character in a teambook.

 

[Intheknow101]

Hahhahahaaaaa "Jean is realistic." HAHAHAhahahaaaaaa

I posted this on another thread, but I think I'm gonna say the same here too.
The best thing anyone ever did to Jean was killing her off. The worse thing is bringing her back over and over again. Even Marvel reconizes Jean and Phoenix to be a giant joke. Noone in their right mind takes it seriously.


Jean should have stayed dead after the DP saga. All the lessons learned from that went up in smoke because they can bring her back at any time. Talk about anti-clamatic (sp). Then they bring in the cheap imatations in Madalyne and Rachel. Ugg. It was just like whose the better Jean...uh the original isn't even that good. She barely has a personality as it is. WTF

And if Phoenix is all powerful and all knowing and closer to God than Jesus...why the heck does Jean spend alot of time decomposing.

Here's something to think about: Phoenix vs. Mainline Marvel Writers, Phoenix vs. The Stigma of Redundant Ressurections in the eyes of the General Public, Phoenix vs. Victor Newman, and the ultimate fight Phoenix vs. MARY SUE!

It'd help you a little to actually comprehend books.

You do realize that Jean has died like 3 times total? Magneto has died and come back that many times if not more. Storm has died that many times just on the top of my head. She came back from getting killed in Dallas by the Adversary and ressurected by Roma, killed herself and the Acanti had to ressurect her, in X-treme X-Men after fighting after Khan, and then died in the Secret War at the hands of the Beyonder. Many other X-Men have died at least twice as well. Yet I don't see you complaining that they should keep STORM dead or it's bad to bring her back. But of course you're probably a Storm fan boy anyways who likes to twist things to make Jean look bad despite Storm having been in the same exact situations.

Jean's personality? She's stubborn. She's passionate. She's opinionated. She's fiery. She's emotional. She's compassionate. And more. She's the type that buries her emotions until they blow up. She's loving because she's willing to sacrifice anything to save her friends and family. It's the type of person she is. She's also run by her emotions and has been described as a furnace of violent emotions. But her traits are realistic traits since there are people I know who do that or have those traits.

And all comic characters are/can/and will be brought back. Bucky came back and so did Gwen Stacy. So I have a bridge to sell you if you think Jean is the only one that does it, or that it'll stop. It's the nature of the genre, and your precious Storm has done it at least 4 times. Just because her deaths aren't as talked about or well remembered somehow makes Jean's worse or negates the fact that bringing Storm back from the dead isn't anti-climatic?

No where did it say she's closer to god than Jesus, since Jesus is never referenced to in the books. Where does it say that?

Why does she die? She dies to be reborn. Get that across your head. That's what a PHOENIX does. And she has cosmic duties that she attends to. Like when she said she couldn't stay long because a part of her knew she had to go away to disinfect the future.

Jean is still very viable for Marvel. Even out of commission, she is frequently mentioned in all the core books. And she appears in many books as well. Plus tons of merchandise that has come out and continue to come out. If Jean is such a joke like you say, they wouldn't be marketing her so much. They're laughing all the way to the bank! muwahahaha She's one of the truly A-list X-Men along with Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm, and Rogue.

 

[Harlekin]

You're assuming a little much with Storm thing there Intheknow. He didn't even reference her.

 

[Abaddon]

It's just sad that the story got so convoluted.