JLA vs avengers

[The_Mystery]

A few points have been raised that may be interesting factors for debate

Thor is vulnerable to science...in the same way superman is vulerable to magic...That is wrong. There is nowhere it say's he's vulnerable to science. Read the post again.
an energy canon is a weapon of science does that mean that thor is weak against it?
and to what end

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It's been said that the Avengers have the greatest leader in comicdom today and because of this they can function as a very capable team...
(not the the league spells team with an I in the middle)
but fine sure

now lets say that the league isn't so good as a team do to their amount of experience doing their own thing, these individuals may very well be better when they are on their own(batman standing out here)

Now, what would happen if say cap was taken out of the picture(which could easily happen due to the nature of the opponet)Then you have very capable leaders in Tony, Janet, Photon, Hawkeye, even the Vision.

would the avengers, the super team be as proficient without thier uber leader...as proficient as the team that is less reliant on cohesive engagement?Yes they would but I doubt it would be that easy to just "eliminate" Cap from the battle. It probably would be as tough as taking Bats out the fight.

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J'onn is a very capable threat...after the whole fernus episode, i'm sure he's even more capable than superman
(and guess what, no magic "vulnerability")

plus there's the mind control factor

i mean every single obvious reason why no one Fu<ks with Charles Xavier and then thow in all the reasons why no one Fu<ks with Superman....thow in shadow cat, and mystique and a few others and you have yourself a ball game I think you should check the recent issue of "52." Your so called "Most Powerful Being Alive" is once again vulnerable to fire. It's too bad the Avengers don't have a fire-powered members *sneeze*firebird*sneeze*
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Avengers vs the Flash

not only can he heal this injured teamates

not only can he make his whole team as fast as he is

but he's got a physical attack(it's like an RPG) that has an impact measured with an infinate number

i wonder if the god blast works on someone phased
Yup, Flash can do all that, but he'd be alittle busy taking on Quicksilver. Flash WOULD beat Quicksilver, but not fast enough for someone like the Sentry to come help and take out Flash. It's all about teamwork. (For those who think the Flash would just "steal" Pietro's speed, answer me this, why didn't he do it in the JLA/Avengers series. Why? Cause he doesn't use it all the time, just like Supes and his super-speed.

-King

You want me to give some credit to Superman, Flash and the JLA, give some credit to Cap, Thor and The Avengers.

 

[Varient]

If thor transports supes to a dimension where his powers don't work, ie a place without the sun etc, not exactly difficult for Thor, then Supes starts getting Hammered, litterally!

?

Uh,....That sounds like you are saying that:

1. Thor is fairly good at "Prep time" (Snicker)

2. Thor has the short list on Superman as to where, how, what, and who.

3. That he has a place already picked out w/o Yellow sun Energy.

4. That the version of Superman he fights is the Capacitor version vice the Battery version.


(For the part-time nerds)
The current version of Superman is a Solar Battery. The Main part of his powers are dependant on how much of a Solar Charge he has accumulated.
Current Canon sez that as he charges,.. first he gets stronger than his naturally occuring 75 / 100 ton level, then his healing factor kicks in,.. recovering from lifethreatening injuries within minutes, then he starts gaining invulnerablilty, then his reaction time and super senses come on line, then he is able to fly,... with the last power coming on line being his heat vision.

If you take this Superman from under a Yellow sun,.. over a MONTH he loses these powers in reverse order, (See the nightfall series), with Super Strength being the last to go. This Superman is limited by MOST of the current knoqwn laws of Physics as far as Mass, Energy and movement are concerned.


The previous version of Superman was a Solar Capacitor. Exposed to Yellow Starlight,... he is immediately at full charge with all his powers and abilities intact within SECONDS. His only limitations are Time and Kyptonite.
He was capable of FTL travel and Time travel thru full use of his powers. Removing him from all starlight would reduce him to HUMAN levels across the board within seconds. Different levels across the stellar spectrum would give him equivalent power levels. He is more powerful under Blue or white starlight than he is under Yellow,... he is weaker under Orange, and has no remarkable powers under a red star.

Of the two versions,... Thor would win if he moved the previous Superman to a dimension or star system w/o yellow star energy.




V.

 

[Anubis]

captain america could beat the jla by himself

If they were playing double dutch maybe.

 

[Cyrusbales]

?

Uh,....That sounds like you are saying that:

1. Thor is fairly good at "Prep time" (Snicker)

2. Thor has the short list on Superman as to where, how, what, and who.

3. That he has a place already picked out w/o Yellow sun Energy.

4. That the version of Superman he fights is the Capacitor version vice the Battery version.


V.

Well Thor can take anyone out of the fight VERY quickly by teleporting them, even if he doesn't know about supes, how much damahe will supes to when he's in another dimension? Teleport him into a black hole in another dimension, that'd keep him pretty busy. I do agree that pre-crisis supes can take out almost everyone, but the supes we're talking about here would get owned by Thor.

And we're forgetting Sentry, possibly the most powerful hero in comics, his powers are limitless, and he uses the void, the ONLY thing that scares the Hulk(consideriung the nature of the hullk, fear should be impossible). The most powerful member of the JLA is Flash, he WILL cause massive troubles to the avengers, but the rest of the JLA gets dealt with, Sentry would be able to take out Flash though, but it wouldn't be easy.

 

[The_Mystery]

Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Vison, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, Quicksilver, Sentry, Ms. Marvel, Moondragon & Hercules

vs.

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash(Bart Allen), GL (Hal Jordan), Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Zatanna, Hawkman, Atom(new guy) & Green Arrow

Alright everyone. Here are your line-ups, pick a winner. Give me a scenario. Just for fun( and to get off this magic/Superman thing )

 

[Cyrusbales]

Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Vison, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, Quicksilver, Sentry, Ms. Marvel, Moondragon & Hercules

vs.

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash(Bart Allen), GL (Hal Jordan), Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Zatanna, Hawkman, Atom(new guy) & Green Arrow

Alright everyone. Here are your line-ups, pick a winner. Give me a scenario. Just for fun( and to get off this magic/Superman thing )

Cap and bats cancel each other out. Sentry takes Flash first, Thor takes supes, Ms Marvel takes out WW, Zatanna and Scarlett witch take each other out. Quicksilver owns green arrow. Hawkman takes out aquaman, Ironman beats MM, but gets owned by GL. Vision, hercules and moondragon clean up the mess. And Thor has plenty of time left over to deal out pain.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Dude he's only got thousands of years experience as a warrior born and prince of a race of warrior gods

He's definately a better fighter than Kal-El. You dont have to be a brilliant tactician to fall back on your thousands of years of experience of fighting dangerous creatures (some of which would mop the floor with Supes). I mean how much of a tactician do you have to be to use your energy absorbing hammer and absorb some heat vision?

Actually, most viking types weren't really all THAT brilliant of fighters. And given the odd nature of most of Thor's opponents, it wasn't really left up to any skill. In mythology, his only real killing duty was to kill giants, which was usually accomplished by him throwing his hammer at them.

Thor basically has always relied on his physical power over actual skill, since most of the time, actual skill never came into play. And most vikings just really sat there and bashed on each other until one fell. I mean, they did use strategy and styles, but nothing really all that advanced.

So to say that Thor SHOULD be a better fighter than Superman would be something I would say no to.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I expected a fight like that to last about a day before Superman wins it,.... if for any other reason,.. both are in their own ways are reluctant to cut loose w/o provocation.

I still Give Supes the win based purely on feats.

With respect to Thor Fans,... I have more respect for those super-powered characters that are less dependent on gear.

The magic for me is what they do from themselves,... not what their gear does for them.

Thor seems to read in Supermans power range simply because of that mallet of his.
(Yes I could be in error,.. I'm not so Anal as to make it a statement of fact w/o reading at least 30 years of Thor first.)

And because of this, I don't give him the win because it is SOP in DC anyway that Kal will recognize the threat level of the weapon and try to remove it from the fight.

If it gives a clearer viewpoint - I believe that the Martian can whoop both at once if he simply cut loose like he did recently.

V.

Unless we're talking about Thor as he's written in the Avengers. Then he's going all out from the get go.

 

[roach]

What I'm saying is that the magical energy of Thor's hammer negates his invulnerablity allowing the full force of Thor's blow to be felt by Supes the same way a regular guy of his size, weight, physique would feel it. Meaning Mjolnir should have broke Supes' hand when he caught it.

what magical energy????
Go back and read my post about Thor's hammer

 

[Cyrusbales]

Actually, most viking types weren't really all THAT brilliant of fighters. And given the odd nature of most of Thor's opponents, it wasn't really left up to any skill. In mythology, his only real killing duty was to kill giants, which was usually accomplished by him throwing his hammer at them.

Thor basically has always relied on his physical power over actual skill, since most of the time, actual skill never came into play. And most vikings just really sat there and bashed on each other until one fell. I mean, they did use strategy and styles, but nothing really all that advanced.

So to say that Thor SHOULD be a better fighter than Superman would be something I would say no to.

That's because Thor has had thousands of years to work out that simply smashing through someone with the best weapon ever works well.

 

[Varient]

Cap and bats cancel each other out. Sentry takes Flash first, Thor takes supes, Ms Marvel takes out WW, Zatanna and Scarlett witch take each other out. Quicksilver owns green arrow. Hawkman takes out aquaman, Ironman beats MM, but gets owned by GL. Vision, hercules and moondragon clean up the mess. And Thor has plenty of time left over to deal out pain.

just a little biased huh?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

But Superman has had several threats on par with his similar size, speed, and strength, who posed bigger threats than those three standards. He'll get by someone throwing a hammer at him, or just trying to bash him, because Superman has actually had a few more chances to just fight against someone on his level.

"So has Thor," Kind of, not as much. The Silver Surfer is pretty much the only one who could truly qualify, and not even then really.

 

[roach]

That's because Thor has had thousands of years to work out that simply smashing through someone with the best weapon ever works well.

but based on his continuity of character Marvel Thor has never been shown to be anything but that guy who simply smashes thru things with his hammer

 

[roach]

Cap and bats cancel each other out. Sentry takes Flash first, Thor takes supes, Ms Marvel takes out WW, Zatanna and Scarlett witch take each other out. Quicksilver owns green arrow. Hawkman takes out aquaman, Ironman beats MM, but gets owned by GL. Vision, hercules and moondragon clean up the mess. And Thor has plenty of time left over to deal out pain.

How how how how does Ms Marvel take out Wonder Woman?????
I give the Sentry/Flash fight to Flash
Why is Hawkman fighting Aquaman?????

 

[Cyrusbales]

But Superman has had several threats on par with his similar size, speed, and strength, who posed bigger threats than those three standards. He'll get by someone throwing a hammer at him, or just trying to bash him, because Superman has actually had a few more chances to just fight against someone on his level.

"So has Thor," Kind of, not as much. The Silver Surfer is pretty much the only one who could truly qualify, and not even then really.

Well teleporting Superman out of the battle helps a lot. happens kinda quickly too!

 

[Cyrusbales]

How how how how does Ms Marvel take out Wonder Woman?????
I give the Sentry/Flash fight to Flash
Why is Hawkman fighting Aquaman?????

Why isn't hawkman fighting Aquaman? lol.

Ms Marvel has proven herself pretty damn tough, and if this is on a neutral playing field, WW wouldn't have godwave, as it's dependant on the DCU.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well, Thor uses strategy here and there. In his own book, he wasn't some smash and grab type, but he wasn't exactly just a barbarian either.

 

[Cyrusbales]

but based on his continuity of character Marvel Thor has never been shown to be anything but that guy who simply smashes thru things with his hammer

But there's a lot of backstory that never really gets a full airing, but i do get where you come from, but if it works, why mess with it!? I believe theree's been instances where he's used some more brains to defeat the opponent when smashin didn't work quite as well*scans anyone? *

 

[roach]

Why isn't hawkman fighting Aquaman? lol.

Ms Marvel has proven herself pretty damn tough, and if this is on a neutral playing field, WW wouldn't have godwave, as it's dependant on the DCU.

I dont see MM taking WW...she is just slightly weaker than Superman and I dont see MM in that level.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

How how how how does Ms Marvel take out Wonder Woman?????
I give the Sentry/Flash fight to Flash
Why is Hawkman fighting Aquaman?????

I guess if Ms. Marvel had been juicing on a heavy amount of energy before hand?

As for Sentry/Flash. Sentry has it. He's shown faster than light speeds with zero effort with people in tow, for the speed front.

 

[roach]

But there's a lot of backstory that never really gets a full airing, but i do get where you come from, but if it works, why mess with it!? I believe theree's been instances where he's used some more brains to defeat the opponent when smashin didn't work quite as well*scans anyone? *

but the fact is Thor is not going to look at Superman and determine that placing him in a red sun dimension is going to make him weaker....hell I have never know Thor to back down from a challenge so the thought of him transporting someone away is pretty alien to him

 

[roach]

I guess if Ms. Marvel had been juicing on a heavy amount of energy before hand?

As for Sentry/Flash. Sentry has it. He's shown faster than light speeds with zero effort with people in tow, for the speed front.

yeah but cant Flash bleed/rob people of their speed

 

[Varient]

Why isn't hawkman fighting Aquaman? lol.

Ms Marvel has proven herself pretty damn tough, and if this is on a neutral playing field, WW wouldn't have godwave, as it's dependant on the DCU.

?
But Ms Marvel isn't in Wonderwomans Power class.

Wonderwoman is faster, stronger and more durable by feats than Ms Marvel EVER was.

And Hawkman taking out his own teammate so Marvel can win? What is up with that?

 

[roach]

?
But Ms Marvel isn't in Wonderwomans Power class.

Wonderwoman is faster, stronger and more durable by feats than Ms Marvel EVER was.

And Hawkman taking out his own teammate so Marvel can win? What is up with that?

exactly

 

[Marvin]

That is wrong. There is nowhere it say's he's vulnerable to science. Read the post again.

that's funny, but in actually fact are you denying that he's vulnerable to science?
r u really

Then you have very capable leaders in Tony, Janet, Photon, Hawkeye, even the Vision.

there good leaders eh, would u say that Diana(princess and leader of a mythic race of warriors) is a capable leader?
Superman?
Batman?
J'onn
are capable leaders?

cause they have all at one time or another led the team(and various others) to glorious victory.

ur point was that Cap is soo damn good that he makes the team that much better than their opponets...they need him if they are to be as good as to take out the big7....
so if he ain't there...that kinda means they're not that good
and you have to be (triple H) that damn good if your going to take them out

my point is that i'll tip my hat to avengers team work being key, but that really comes down to cap

ie, are they really as mighty with Hawkeye leading?

Yes they would but I doubt it would be that easy to just "eliminate" Cap from the battle. It probably would be as tough as taking Bats out the fight.

just looking at a possible scenario...
thing is if they take bat's out of the fight, the rest of the team isn't as relaint on his presence to make them "mighty"

I think you should check the recent issue of "52." Your so called "Most Powerful Being Alive" is once again vulnerable to fire. It's too bad the Avengers don't have a fire-powered members *sneeze*firebird*sneeze*

(supermans words, not mine)
J'onns never stopped being vulnerable to naked flame, the rules just changed no? he stopped fearing it, or it had to be a flame with negative emotion behind it....

either way, fire use on the team or no, he's still just as big a threat...

do you want to know why?
(good cause i'll tell you)

Captian america would last what 1 maybe 5 seconds against Superman right?
but cap doesn't go up against superman(or flash or anyone with real powers) instead due to the faulty nature of these vs threads people match up with their counter parts...

my point, if cap would be smart enough not to engage superman...and infact try to avoid him and do something more productive...

why would J'onn head straight for his "weakness" on the battle field.
good i'm glad you agree
now, back to what i was saying...

He's packing enough versitility to take out both teams...

Yup, Flash can do all that, but he'd be alittle busy taking on Quicksilver. Flash WOULD beat Quicksilver, but not fast enough for someone like the Sentry to come help and take out Flash. It's all about teamwork. (For those who think the Flash would just "steal" Pietro's speed, answer me this, why didn't he do it in the JLA/Avengers series. Why? Cause he doesn't use it all the time, just like Supes and his super-speed.

he doesn't use it all the time...
but he does sometimes?

so i guess today is Pietro's lucky day right

that "use it sometimes" bit is tired...i'll admitt that alot of the time stories need it to further the plot...
but with the nature of these vs threads it's very tired.

(thor doesn't use his godblast(or rather his wide range of attacks) in every fight... so guess what? it's not a factor.
Fallace!

time out...how does sentry "take out flash?"

You want me to give some credit to Superman, Flash and the JLA, give some credit to Cap, Thor and The Avengers.

sure, but if want to give both teams full credit than JLA takes it all the way

the fact that half the roster can possibly take out the planet demands it