JLA vs avengers

[LouFerignoDemon]

Alright, the chef made shortbread cookies, and I had one, so now I'm in a happy mood again. t:


Back to the task at hand with Superman, and his vulnerability to magic. He's as vulnerable to magic as you and I are (that being said a billion times by now.) That just means that he is effected by magic in the same way we are. His very structure isn't altered by magic, and his powers aren't affected by run of the mill magic unless the specific enchantment or spell is targeted to do that.

Example. Diana's sword is meant to cut through basically anything. Since Superman is basically anything, he can be cut through with it. Not all magical swords share this quality. Some might simply illuminate the area around you. Hitting Superman with a sword like that would be like me taking a standard, run of the mill sword, and trying to slash Superman. Since the magic wasn't specific to just cutting, since it just brightens things, the cut of the sword is only normal. So Superman will come out of that one unscathed.

Magic is very specific unlike physics. Magic must be defined, where physics is broad based.

 

[torkibe]

If it's a magic hammer, then, REGARDLESS OF THE ENCHANTMENT(!!!!!!!), it will affect him the same way it would someone OF HIS SIZE, WEIGHT, STATURE, WHATEVER!!!! If you or me hit's Superman with Mjolnir, it's gonna be the same as you or me hitting Batman with Mjolnir. Same thing with Thor, if Thor hits Supes with Mjolnir, it's gonna have the same effect as if he hits Bats with Mjolnir.

No, it's not the same thing. That's the point you just are not grasping. If Thor picked up a sledge hammer of the exact size, weight and density of Mjolnir and hit Superman with it (in the same fashion mind you- meaning Supes caught it before it struck him), it would have the same effect as Mjolnir - none. Mjolnir was made to channel magic, and does it in a variety of ways. Much the same as a magic wand. Hitting things harder is not one of them. Now, conversely, if someone of Thor's strength were to hit Superman from behind with a non-magical sledgehammer, Supes would go flying through the air and land 100 feet away. Is it because it was enchanted? No. Supes won't be hurt... Just knocked for a loop. Same thing if he got hit from behind with Mjolnir.

 

[Varient]

Give me an issue, scan or bio that says that.

Source: http://www.dcdatabaseproject.com/Wonde r_Woman_(Diana)
Weapons:

Boomerang Tiara: Diana's golden tiara also doubles as a throwing weapon, as it is razor-edged and can cut through most substances.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Wo man
Weapons
Diana has numerous powerful weapons at her disposal, Diana's golden tiara also doubles as a boomerang-type throwing weapon, as it is razor-edged and can cut through most substances before returning to her. Her most notable use of it resulted in the decapitation of Deimos during their first meeting.


Source:http://www.starnet-database.com /dbase_deo/profiles/wonder_woman/wonde r_woman.html

Weapons: Wonder Woman has had in her possession a variety of weapons and devices during her time as an ambassador to the Man's World. She has used a magical sword reputed to be able to cleave almost any material and magical shield on occasion, her indestructible bracelets, her weapon tiara, which could be used a boomerang, the Sandals of Hermes for flight, (which she no longer needs), and even the Gauntlet of Atlas, which was actually given to Artemis to give her increased strength and allow her to compete fairly with Wonder Woman during their contest on Theymescria.




Source: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com /wonder-woman5.htm
circa - 1947 New weapons and abilities: Turns out her tiara is a magic boomerang, and her earrings allow her to breathe in oxygen-free environments like outer space. Her bracelets form a communications link with Themyscira.




Source:http://home.iprimus.com.au/renn yr/Facts.html
Diana's new star shaped earrings were given to her as gift from her sister, Donna who used to wear them when she was Wonder Girl. These new earrings also serve as a transmitter with which she can communicate with other Superheroes in the Justice League of America. The Golden Tiara Diana wears was once a symbol of her station as a 'Princess' - now it simply symbolises her role as an ambassador of peace and hope for Paradise Island to the rest of the world. It is razor sharp and can be used as a boomerang. [/B]


Tsk.

 

[BrianWilly]

Mystery, "vulnerable to magic" does not mean anything. You keep saying that as if it means something and is the answer to everything in this thread, but just look at that phrase; it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't describe the vulnerability. It doesn't describe the magic. It doesn't even describe what it does to Superman. Does it hurt him or make him afraid or make him lose his powers? That phrase alone doesn't tell you any of the above. You look at that phrase alone and keep coming up with gallons of assumptions and follow-up ideas to the phrase, and keep wondering why no one's taking you seriously.

It'd be like I said, "Thor is vulnerable to science," and then was incredulous and indignant that people don't agree with what I'm trying to say.

Logically, magic cannot work like how you're suggesting. Do you understand that what you are saying simply doesn't make sense in terms of how magic exists in any fictional setting? Something cannot be enchanted in one way and be expected to act in another. That's the nature of magic. Superman being vulnerable to magic does not change the nature of magic. Superman's vulnerability to magic functions under the parameters of magic that already exists. If someone wants the exploit Superman's vulnerability to magic, they still have to work within how magic normally works anyway.

If any magic on anything somehow made it hurt Superman, Thor or Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel wouldn't need any weapons to knock him down, all they would have to do is to punch him normally and he should be vomiting blood. Aren't they magical? And yet no one is suggesting that this would happen. Do you not somehow see a bit of a flaw in your master plan? I mean seriously, give me one good reason why Mjolnir would put Superman down instantly but Wonder Woman's fists wouldn't.

...and all this has been explained to you over and over again already, and yet for some reason you just continue to act like you haven't even seen it.

Against my better judgment, let me give yet another example. In part four of Sacrifice, during the WW vs Superman fight, she slammed her bracelets into the sides of his head. Of course, her bracelets are magically indestructible and emit a force field when joined. So if what you're saying about magic things hurting Superman merely on the basis of them being magical were true, his head should have shattered like a melon from the force of someone with Wonder Woman's strength slamming him with two indestructible magic bracelets. Instead, what actually hurt him was the fact that he was using his super-hearing at the time and sound burst that resulted from her bracelets clanging his skull with the strength of Gaea; this was explicitly referred to in the comic, as you can see. You say that Mjolnir hitting Superman would have the exact same destructive effect it has on normal, non-powered people, and yet if Wonder Woman had hit a non-powered person like that with her bracelets they would be headless and dead. not reeling from a sonic attack.

One last thing: there's been some fanwank speculation throughout the late 90s and early 2000s that magical aura is capable of penetrating Superman's protective aura or something. Not only has this never been stated throughout his entire publication history, it's also pretty ridiculous. Why would that happen? I mean seriously, does anyone even actually stop to think about why something magic would just do something like that if it wasn't specifically told to? Even assuming that there's somehow just one type of magical aura in the entire universe, it just coincidentally manages to emit the exact sort of energy that just happens to negate the aura of a Kryptonian under a yellow sun? Y'know, through luck and stuff.

Her sword was not enchanted to cut ANYTHING.

Yes, it was. Straight out of the Ultimate Guide to Wonder Woman, an official book published by DC, it says that her sword was forged by Hephaestus to cut through anything, including to "cleave the electrons from an atom."

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

The Mystery just doesn't understand or he just doesn't want to.
Superman is vunerable to the effects of magic and not vunerable to objects just because they are magical.

If Superman was vunerable to magic in general he would be killed if punched by Captain Marvel and Etrigan etc. by them just punching him. Also Superman managed not only to take a blast of Magical Hellfire but he inhaled it with no harmful effects...If his weakness worked like you think the flames would have incinerated him if he was hit. However If the Flames were magically made to burn through virtually anything then Supes would be in trouble as he would be vunerable to its effects.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

The Hammer Mjonir was not made with "hit harder" enchantments as it relies on Thors pure physical strength to do its damage.

I don't even understand Mystery's point. Oh I guess we should all just discard Supes victory over Thor in JLA/Avengers because Mystery doesn't like it......

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

Also I'm glad that the Mystery stopped with the whole Avengers win because they have Captain America's strategies. We are talking about someone who could be easily killed only seconds into the battle and even less by several characters when they are barely trying.


Consider the Fact that Martian Manhunter could just...
1. Read Caps thoughts and know his every strategy while his thinking of them and he could psychically alert all his teamates of their plans.

2.Flash,Supes,Zatanna,Martian Manhunter,Captain Marvel,Wonder Woman and many others could kill or take Cap out of the fight before it really even starts. I'm curious wha the Avengers would do withought their glorious leader.

3.MM could just telepathically shut down Cap.

4.MM could control Cap into giving false orders.

 

[Marvin]

A few points have been raised that may be interesting factors for debate

Thor is vulnerable to science...in the same way superman is vulerable to magic...
an energy canon is a weapon of science does that mean that thor is weak against it?
and to what end

----------------------------------

It's been said that the Avengers have the greatest leader in comicdom today and because of this they can function as a very capable team...
(not the the league spells team with an I in the middle)
but fine sure

now lets say that the league isn't so good as a team do to their amount of experience doing their own thing, these individuals may very well be better when they are on their own(batman standing out here)

Now, what would happen if say cap was taken out of the picture(which could easily happen due to the nature of the opponet)

would the avengers, the super team be as proficient without thier uber leader...as proficient as the team that is less reliant on cohesive engagement?

------------------------------------------------------

J'onn is a very capable threat...after the whole fernus episode, i'm sure he's even more capable than superman
(and guess what, no magic "vulnerability")

plus there's the mind control factor

i mean every single obvious reason why no one Fu<ks with Charles Xavier and then thow in all the reasons why no one Fu<ks with Superman....thow in shadow cat, and mystique and a few others and you have yourself a ball game
----------------------------------------------

Avengers vs the Flash

not only can he heal this injured teamates

not only can he make his whole team as fast as he is

but he's got a physical attack(it's like an RPG) that has an impact measured with an infinate number

i wonder if the god blast works on someone phased


-King

 

[roach]

Ok time to put this in D&D terms(or RPG terms)

Thor's Hammer while being magical in nature would only do blunt force trama to Superman the same as a regular hammer of that size and shape. Thor's Hammer is a normal attack and wouldnt be classified as a magical attack.

so without further adieu I give you Thor's stats from the old Marvel Superheroes RPG

Equipment

Unique Weapon: War hammer-"Mjolnir" is made from Uru metal, a Class 3000 strength metal. Mjolnir possess the following powers:

Thor may inflict up to Shift-X Blunt damage with Mijolnir
Thor may throw the hammer up to 10 areas away with the hammer returning the following round.
Thor may fly up to Class 1000 speeds space and Shift-Z maximum in atmosphere
By spinning the hammer, Thor may use it as a shield of Unearthly strength.
Weather and Air Control: Shift-Y rank. Thor has all associated power stunts and can shoot lightning bolts from Mjolnir without summoning a storm.
Dimensional Travel: By spinning the hammer, Thor may move into adjacent dimensions with Unearthly ability.
Magic Detection: Unearthly ability.
Light Blast: Unearthly intensity
Absorption: The hammer can absorb blasts of up to Class 1000 intensity which must be redirected the following round, in any direction.
Mystical Energy Blasts: Mijolner can fire draining blasts of mystical energy (on the force or energy column) with Unearthly ability, capable of slaying Asgardian gods. Thor refers to this energy blast as the Anti-Force.

Notice how is doesnt list the blunt force as mystical

 

[bkhedr]

No, it's not the same thing. That's the point you just are not grasping. If Thor picked up a sledge hammer of the exact size, weight and density of Mjolnir and hit Superman with it (in the same fashion mind you- meaning Supes caught it before it struck him), it would have the same effect as Mjolnir - none. Mjolnir was made to channel magic, and does it in a variety of ways. Much the same as a magic wand. Hitting things harder is not one of them. Now, conversely, if someone of Thor's strength were to hit Superman from behind with a non-magical sledgehammer, Supes would go flying through the air and land 100 feet away. Is it because it was enchanted? No. Supes won't be hurt... Just knocked for a loop. Same thing if he got hit from behind with Mjolnir.

While I cant fault your logic I do have to point out that Mjolnir has hurt people at least as invulnerable as Supes in the past. Thor has bloodied the Hulk up with a single blow of his hammer before. Heck Stormbreaker cracked Galactus' armor.

I agree with you for the most part but Mjolnir is clearly more than just a sledgehammer. Its the breaker of all things. It tears through steel and concrete like paper. Not your average hammer. At the very least (and this is in RPG terms) the fact that it is being swung with supernatural strength should translate into it doing supernatural damage (unless it breaks, like a normal weapon would) but since it doesnt.....

 

[bkhedr]

The Hammer Mjonir was not made with "hit harder" enchantments as it relies on Thors pure physical strength to do its damage.

I don't even understand Mystery's point. Oh I guess we should all just discard Supes victory over Thor in JLA/Avengers because Mystery doesn't like it......

I want to discard it because it was too easy and Thor was fighting really really dumb

Why did he run headlong through the heat vision? (nevermind that Thor has waded through lava with no ill effects and is all but immune to extremes of temperature)

I mean why wouldnt Thor deflect the heat vision with mjolnir? Or better yet just absorb it with Mjolnir?

Also I love Superman, really I do, but I just cant believe that he would catch Mjolnir in midswing. Thor's strength and momentum alone should make that impossible in my opinion.

Not saying I have a problem with the result of the fight just the way it was written

 

[roach]

I want to discard it because it was too easy and Thor was fighting really really dumb

as opposed to the brilliant tactcian he is

 

[bkhedr]

Dude he's only got thousands of years experience as a warrior born and prince of a race of warrior gods

He's definately a better fighter than Kal-El. You dont have to be a brilliant tactician to fall back on your thousands of years of experience of fighting dangerous creatures (some of which would mop the floor with Supes). I mean how much of a tactician do you have to be to use your energy absorbing hammer and absorb some heat vision?

 

[roach]

Dude he's only got thousands of years experience as a warrior born and prince of a race of warrior gods

He's definately a better fighter than Kal-El

I dont deny that but he has never been considered a smart fighter

 

[bkhedr]

All I'm saying is the supes-Thor fight from JLA Avengers was too easy for Kal (his comment about how tough it was afterwards not withstanding)

That should have been a real slobber knocker :P

 

[Cyrusbales]

If thor transports supes to a dimension where his powers don't work, ie a place without the sun etc, not exactly difficult for Thor, then Supes starts getting Hammered, litterally!

 

[Varient]

All I'm saying is the supes-Thor fight from JLA Avengers was too easy for Kal (his comment about how tough it was afterwards not withstanding)

That should have been a real slobber knocker :P

I expected a fight like that to last about a day before Superman wins it,.... if for any other reason,.. both are in their own ways are reluctant to cut loose w/o provocation.

I still Give Supes the win based purely on feats.

With respect to Thor Fans,... I have more respect for those super-powered characters that are less dependent on gear.

The magic for me is what they do from themselves,... not what their gear does for them.

Thor seems to read in Supermans power range simply because of that mallet of his.
(Yes I could be in error,.. I'm not so Anal as to make it a statement of fact w/o reading at least 30 years of Thor first.)

And because of this, I don't give him the win because it is SOP in DC anyway that Kal will recognize the threat level of the weapon and try to remove it from the fight.

If it gives a clearer viewpoint - I believe that the Martian can whoop both at once if he simply cut loose like he did recently.

V.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Thor is superstrong and tough even without his hammer, he is a God after all!

 

[The_Mystery]

well atleast we be getting somewhere

Thing is dude

thors hammer doesn't give that much more impact than him swinging an unbreakable hammer

Superman is a tuff as it gets when it comes to blut force attacks...
(aslong as u agree that the ambient magical energy on the hammer has on effect)

What I'm saying is that the magical energy of Thor's hammer negates his invulnerablity allowing the full force of Thor's blow to be felt by Supes the same way a regular guy of his size, weight, physique would feel it. Meaning Mjolnir should have broke Supes' hand when he caught it.

 

[The_Mystery]

How do you remove Mjolnir from Thor's hand when he can mentally "call" it back to him. Besides, Thor's grip would be like an adamantium-vise(sp?) on that handle. It wouldn't be the easiest thing to do and would take to much time allowing Thor to either punch Supes away or blast him with the hammer.

 

[Cyrusbales]

As soon as the hammer is in supes' hand, he'd drop it anyway.

 

[The_Mystery]

Also I'm glad that the Mystery stopped with the whole Avengers win because they have Captain America's strategies. We are talking about someone who could be easily killed only seconds into the battle and even less by several characters when they are barely trying.Yup, cause Cap is taken out and killed during every battle the Avengers fight against another superteam.


Consider the Fact that Martian Manhunter could just...
1. Read Caps thoughts and know his every strategy while his thinking of them and he could psychically alert all his teamates of their plans.Yeah, cause he does that all the time. It's too bad the Avengers don't have their own telepath. *sneeze*Moondragon*sneeze*

2.Flash,Supes,Zatanna,Martian Manhunter,Captain Marvel,Wonder Woman and many others could kill or take Cap out of the fight before it really even starts. I'm curious wha the Avengers would do withought their glorious leader.Yeah, cause Cap has never fought a super-powered opponent before. I can think of at least one person for each JLA member you mentioned that could help Cap out. Quicksilver, Thor, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Sentry and Hercules.

3.MM could just telepathically shut down Cap.Yup, cause he does that all the time y'know.

4.MM could control Cap into giving false orders. Yup, cause it would be that easy with the Avengers having their own telepath (Moondragon) on their team.

You're making it too easy for the JLA, but DC has brainwashed you, so I forgive you

 

[The_Mystery]

The Hammer Mjonir was not made with "hit harder" enchantments as it relies on Thors pure physical strength to do its damage.I'm not the one saying Mjolnir "hits harder" cause I don't believe that and there is no evidence anywhere saying that.

I don't even understand Mystery's point. Oh I guess we should all just discard Supes victory over Thor in JLA/Avengers because Mystery doesn't like it......Honestly I would discard that fight because it only took like 5 minutes. Like I said before, that's bad writing. That fight should have lasted at least the same amount of time it took to fight Doomsday. By the way, you guys do know that the longer Supes fights the weaker he gets right. Y'know, cause he is basically a "living solar battery" and constant use of his powers would drain him and if he fights long enough he could be totally drain. That's how Doomsday beat him. His power source was nearly depleted. You know the sun gets blocked when there is a storm going on right

Just a theory. I'm sure you guys will be right there to tell me how wrong I am and how I'm blind. Go on, I enjoy the discussion.t:

 

[CorporalHicks]

captain america could beat the jla by himself

 

[Cyrusbales]

captain america could beat the jla by himself

If the justice league only had bats in it....