JLA vs. The X-men

[Jplaya2023]

Only a 1 in 20? I would give phoenix a little more credit then that, I mean, she did destroy worlds with ease. How would they beat phoenix 19 out of 20 times?

I totally agree on everything else though, people really underestimate the speed factor.

Batman would use the infinity gauntless to destroy phoenix, or if she fought him hand2 hand 1 on 1 without the powers she gets destroyed

 

[LibrarianThorne]

Equal would be a stretch.

Onslaught would be the closest approximation to Xaviers full potential and None of the JLA are up to taking on the big O. Nor are the X-men for that matter.


I love both teams and 9 out of 10 times the JLA hands down.
But to say that they couldn't win is unrealistic.

By the way are we sure Supes wouldn't be cut by Adamantium?

By the way 2 couldn't Rougue steal all of the weaker Jla members powers and half of the big hitters?

Couldn't Xavier alter the Jla's perception so they were slightly behind in reaction time. This not being an overt attack by Xavier, wouldn't be detected for some time by MM.


Besides Batman the JLA aren't really tacticians. They rely on the big guns.

The X-men are almost always the underdog and are always forced to think to win.

Martian Manhunter effortlessly solo'd most of the DCU Earth as Fernus The Burning, and was only halted by the nigh-omnipotent Plastic Man. He's also, without any difficulty or extra equipment mind you, scanned the minds of every sentient being on planet Earth. Saying that he's in Charles Xavier's league is a disservice to the Manhunter. Professor X is lucky that he's barely in the Martian Manhunter's league.

As to adamantium not working on Superman, the explanation is simple. Wolverine can't cut through force fields. Superman's body is surrounded by an impenetrable force field generated perpetually thanks to the solar radiation his body drinks up. Failing that, Superman's skin itself would be impervious to Wolverine's blows. Why, you ask? Let's look at what has cut Superman. To the best of my knowledge, two things have ever cut Superman; Doomsday's bone claws and Wonder Woman's sword. Wonder Woman's sword was forged by Hephaestus and can cut the electrons off of an atom. It is thusly magical, one of the few things Superman is weak to. Doomsday's bone claws cut Superman becauce Superman's body was too drained for the force field to be kept up, and Doomsday had sufficient strength to do so. I'm waiting for the arguement that Wolverine is as physically strong as Doomsday, because that's the only was his claws will have a chance at cutting Superman.

As to Rogue stealing powers, how? She can control fire, currently. That's nice and all, but she doesn't have nearly the speed to be able to deal with the JLA outside of, say, Batman and Aquaman. And without her Ms. Marvel powers, it'll be a cold day in hell before Rogue takes Aquaman.

The JLA don't have tacticians? Have you read a JLA trade? They've got Batman, sure, but then they've got the Martian Manhunter. The Manhunter, you'll recall, was able to unify the Avengers and the JLA against hte deadliest threats either team had ever faced (including an army of Doomsdays and Thanos of Titan). Besides that, J'onn's mental shielding has survived plunging into the minds of demons and effortlessly penetrated the mind of the Spectre and the JLA simultaneously.

The X-Men are the underdogs, sure. But if the JLA has reason to consider them a serious threat like, say, the Crime Syndicate, there's no way in hell a Phoenix-less X-Men stand a chance.

And even if you add the Phoenix Force, it becomes the JLA v. Phoenix, and not JLA v. X-Men.

 

[Seventh Soldier]

Only a 1 in 20? I would give phoenix a little more credit then that, I mean, she did destroy worlds with ease. How would they beat phoenix 19 out of 20 times?

I totally agree on everything else though, people really underestimate the speed factor.

19 out of 20 may have been an exaggeration, to that I will admit. However, they would, I believe, win the fight more than 50% of the time.

Mind you, I haven't read much Phoenix stuff (purposefully avoided most of it) since...well, since Dark Phoenix Saga. Note a few things: When Jean is in control, or is, at least, not Dark Phoenix, she has not shown a willingness to destory Earth to win a fight. And, the League has dealt with worse, such as Mageddon.

Why could I not come up with a way? Because, I'm just not familiar enough to the strategies of Jean w/ Phoenix. I know enough about most of the characters, but she's too wild, and I never could bring myself to care whether she was alive or dead.

The League has a lot of tricks I don't know if the Phoenix would be able to handle. Wally is prime among them, but the Martian Manhunter is frequently underestimated, Wonder Woman is definitely different from most enemies Jean would've fought, Superman is damn hard to keep down, Green Lantern does have the RIDICULOUSLY powerful ring, and, dependent on at what point in the career of what lantern, he could be the one to tip the scale. Hawkgirl...I know more about animated Hawkgirl than DC proper Hawkgirl, so I won't comment. And, Ollie and Bruce probably long-since retreated, to keep the team up-to-date on tactical info from afar, as they've got nothin' much to contribute here. Except for maybe a stray Phantom Zone Arrow, I guess.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

As Phoenix, Jean had telepathy,telekinesis, complete control of matter and energy including transmutation and matter energy conversion. She was also immortal and absolutely invulnerable unless she deliberately chose otherwise. All of her powers were at whatever power level she chose up to and including infinite. Phoenix alone could easily defeat the entire JLA since she simply cannot be affected by anything unless she chooses to be. Marvel telepaths have the ability to astrally projectand fight outside their bodies. The powerful ones can do even after the death of their bodies. Jean, even without the Phoenix force,and the Professor as well. Jean or the Professor could possibly take control of the power ring. Telekinetic and magnetic shields can stop speedsters.

 

[Whirlysplat]

As Phoenix, Jean had telepathy,telekinesis, complete control of matter and energy including transmutation and matter energy conversion. She was also immortal and absolutely invulnerable unless she deliberately chose otherwise. All of her powers were at whatever power level she chose up to and including infinite. Phoenix alone could easily defeat the entire JLA since she simply cannot be affected by anything unless she chooses to be. Marvel telepaths have the ability to astrally projectand fight outside their bodies. The powerful ones can do even after the death of their bodies. Jean, even without the Phoenix force,and the Professor as well. Jean or the Professor could possibly take control of the power ring. Telekinetic and magnetic shields can stop speedsters.

The Phoenix is merely an Avatar of the Phoenix force. The Phoenix force probably, although several scenarios exist gave the spark of life to the Marvel Universe. Phoenix definately helped create Galactus in the cosmic egg. This being said the Avatars have been shown they can be killed e.g. Xornetto.

 

[LexCorp]

Look at the poll. JLA is way in front on popular opion.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Look at the poll. JLA is way in front on popular opion.

Yup! it is and I believe without the Phoenix rightly so. However the Phoenix can actually effect the Universe by being outside it and is capable of reality alteration at a universal level. Funny though polls do not always reflect truth anymore than popular opinion does just a though.

I do not like the Phoenix, unfortunately I do not see how the JLA can beat it without PIS. Although like others I voted for the JLA because I know they would beat it and the Xmen.

- Whirly

 

[LexCorp]

That is the trouble with these questions. It always spills over into too much detail about every last thing a character can do...you could stay here all day really.

 

[Whirlysplat]

That is the trouble with these questions. It always spills over into too much detail about every last thing a character can do...you could stay here all day really.

true enough my friend, true enough.

 

[LexCorp]

true enough my friend, true enough.

Plus I bet someone will say "with preptime Batman can beat all!!! " lol. That settles it.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Plus I bet someone will say "with preptime Batman can beat all!!! " lol. That settles it.

But with prep he could.............. couldn't he?

- Whirly

 

[LexCorp]

hehe of course. Such is the way in all matters.

 

[BrianWilly]

It depends on which level of Phoenix we're talking about.

Normal Phoenix -- in which Jean Grey's personality is the driving force -- could probably be defeated by the JLA seven times out of ten. She's still the most powerful psychic on Earth, beating even Xavier out of the spot, but her connection to the Phoenix Force is much less and so cosmic, atom-splitting attacks do not come as naturally to her. I'd compare her threat level to about the level of Superman, Wonder Woman, or Green Lantern.

Dark Phoenix -- in which the Phoenix Force is behind the wheels -- is a cosmic, sun-eating threat. The JLA handles cosmic, sun-eating threats all the time, but by no means would it be a easy fight. She has full access to the cosmic destructive potential of the Phoenix Force, and she's not held back by the humanity and compassion of Jean. I'd say that her threat level is comparable to Fernus the Burning, Darkseid, or Neron. I'd say that the ratios are reversed in this fight and that JLA would lose pretty much seven times out of ten.

The White Phoenix -- the perfect unity of Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force -- is pretty much God and the JLA don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning her. Her threat level is like Ion, Parallax, or the Spectre.

However, the JLA has a very large disadvantage in a fight between them and any one of the Phoenixes that pretty much everyone has forgotten, which is that the Martian Manhunter would be utterly useless in this fight. Why? Because he goes completely batsht anywhere near fire. And what is the Phoenix's modus operandi? A giant f'ing firebird. Not just a giant f'ing firebird, mind you, but a psychic giant f'ing firebird.

Professor Xavier has likened Jean's consciousness to an immense sea of fire that burns away anything that gets too near. And J'onn's weakness against fire is 100% psychic, not physical. He gets his mental probes anywhere near Jean, and he's reduced to a blubbering puddle on the floor, literally. Fighting against an omega-level telepathic mutant, and the JLA is going to have to do it without their primary telepath. Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman have some innate defense against telepathy, but nothing that's going to protect them from the Phoenix. That shifts the stakes considerably in Jean's favor.

 

[LexCorp]

That's is awesome but ............ is the Pheonix classed as an X man?

 

[Whirlysplat]

It depends on which level of Phoenix we're talking about.

Normal Phoenix -- in which Jean Grey's personality is the driving force -- could probably be defeated by the JLA seven times out of ten. She's still the most powerful psychic on Earth, beating even Xavier out of the spot, but her connection to the Phoenix Force is much less and so cosmic, atom-splitting attacks do not come as naturally to her. I'd compare her threat level to about the level of Superman, Wonder Woman, or Green Lantern.

Dark Phoenix -- in which the Phoenix Force is behind the wheels -- is a cosmic, sun-eating threat. The JLA handles cosmic, sun-eating threats all the time, but by no means would it be a easy fight. She has full access to the cosmic destructive potential of the Phoenix Force, and she's not held back by the humanity and compassion of Jean. I'd say that her threat level is comparable to Fernus the Burning, Darkseid, or Neron. I'd say that the ratios are reversed in this fight and that JLA would lose pretty much seven times out of ten.

The White Phoenix -- the perfect unity of Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force -- is pretty much God and the JLA don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning her. Her threat level is like Ion, Parallax, or the Spectre.

However, the JLA has a very large disadvantage in a fight between them and any one of the Phoenixes that pretty much everyone has forgotten, which is that the Martian Manhunter would be utterly useless in this fight. Why? Because he goes completely batsht anywhere near fire. And what is the Phoenix's modus operandi? A giant f'ing firebird. Not only a giant f'ing firebird, mind you, but a psychic giant f'ing firebird.

Professor Xavier has likened Jean's consciousness to an immense sea of fire that burns away anything that gets too near. And J'onn's weakness against fire is 100% psychic, not physical. He gets his mental probes anywhere near Jean, and he's reduced to a blubbering puddle on the floor, literally. Fighting against an omega-level telepathic mutant, and the JLA is going to have to do it without their primary telepath. Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman have some innate defense against telepathy, but nothing that's going to protect them from the Phoenix. That shifts the stakes considerably in Jean's favor.

I pretty much agree totally with your post, that aside I still go for the PIS/C IS option and say the JLA win. Even though we are both agreed about Phoenix!

- Whirly

 

[BrianWilly]

That's is awesome but ............ is the Pheonix classed as an X man?

I'd say so, 'cause the Phoenix is still Jean and Jean is definitely an X-Man. Plus, she was included in the original post.

 

[LexCorp]

I'd say so, 'cause the Phoenix is still Jean and Jean is definitely an X-Man. Plus, she was included in the original post.

Yeah phoenix was included. But then why not just the ordinary Jean? What level of phoenix? (as you have stated above). Why not Superman Prime etc.....

Seems unfair to take certain characters at certain points of strength.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Yeah phoenix was included. But then why not just the ordinary Jean? What level of phoenix? (as you have stated above). Why not Superman Prime etc.....

Seems unfair to take certain characters at certain points of strength.

Good point, and the sword in the cabinet would possibly put paid to her.

 

[BrianWilly]

Ah. Well, I guess that also depends on what you mean by "ordinary" Jean. When she was Marvel Girl and when she was in X-Factor she didn't have Phoenix powers at all, but that was because it was dormant, not because it wasn't there. Because her immense, infinite psychic powers are part of her natural mutation anyway, it gets a bit complicated trying to figure out where Jean's normal powers end and where the Phoenix Force begins. Unless you specifically say "Jean as Marvel Girl" or "Jean from X-Factor," the Phoenix Force should really be considered part of the package.

I'd say that the normal, green-costumed Phoenix is what would best constitute a baseline "Jean," since it was the power levels that she displayed for most of her height with Claremont and Morrison. I agree that Dark and White Phoenix have only really appeared when something incredibly significant is happening, like major plot points and stuff, and for very specific reasons.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Ah. Well, I guess that also depends on what you mean by "ordinary" Jean. When she was Marvel Girl and when she was in X-Factor she didn't have Phoenix powers at all, but that was because it was dormant, not because it wasn't there. Because her immense, infinite psychic powers are part of her natural mutation anyway, it gets a bit complicated trying to figure out where Jean's normal powers end and where the Phoenix Force begins. Unless you specifically say "Jean as Marvel Girl" or "Jean from X-Factor," the Phoenix Force should really be considered part of the package.

I'd say that the normal, green-costumed Phoenix is what would best constitute a baseline "Jean." I agree that Dark and White Phoenix have only really appeared when something incredibly significant is happening, like major plot points and stuff.

The same argument could be used for the Sword of Superman, God put it there for him to become supreme. The thing I never got about the Jean is Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean bit is how does that work? Despite reading that section over and over with Emma and Jean it never really fitted in my opinion.

 

[BrianWilly]

The easiest way to put it, I think, is that Jean and the Phoenix Force are really two separate fragments of a whole, the White Phoenix of the Crown, which is the true form of the Phoenix.

The biggest misunderstanding comes from people treating the Phoenix Force like a person; it's not. It's sentient, and it can think and has desires and wants...but it's not a person, it's a force. It's like magnetism or time or gravity. Jean is the person the the force manifests through; the only personality that the Phoenix Force has are the ones that it copied from Jean.

When Jean accesses the Phoenix Force by way of her immense psychic potential, she becomes the being known as Phoenix. The role of the Phoenix is to judge the way of things and to burn away what doesn't work, "fixing" the universe for the better. When the Jean aspect of her personality is dominant, she wears the green costume. When the Phoenix Force aspect is dominant and she has no humanity in her, she wears the red costume. When both aspects of the whole -- ie the humane Jean and the cosmic Phoenix Force -- are in perfect unison, they become the White Phoenix.

I don't know how prevalent the Sword of Superman is in post-Crisis; in fact, I don't think it exists at all currently. And the only way for Superman to become Superman Prime is to go in the sun for a million years. Wonder Woman only becomes a goddess if she dies and her gods choose to resurrect her as one. Green Lantern only becomes Parallax or Ion if he absorbs the powers of the Central Battery. Those are very specific, very strict guidelines for those characters to achieve powers that aren't normally considered their current height. Whereas, for Jean Grey, being the Phoenix is the height of her powers. There are no specific guidelines to reach that height other than her own willingness.

 

[LexCorp]

Regardless of all definitions of the characters powers. Take it as X-men (at highest point) vs JLA (at highest point).

Highest Point meaning most powerful version of every character. Who would win?

 

[Whirlysplat]

The easiest way to put it, I think, is that Jean and the Phoenix Force are really two separate fragments of a whole, the White Phoenix of the Crown, which is the true form of the Phoenix.

The old Kabbalah bit I just don't think it really works, despite what Claremont and later Morrison etc. intended.

I don't know how prevalent the Sword of Superman is in post-Crisis; in fact, I don't think it exists at all currently. And the only way for Superman to become Superman Prime is to go in the sun for a million years. Wonder Woman only becomes a goddess if she dies and her gods choose to resurrect her as one. Green Lantern only becomes Parallax or Ion if he absorbs the powers of the Central Battery. Those are very specific, very strict guidelines for those characters to achieve powers that aren't normally considered their current height. Whereas, for Jean Grey, being the Phoenix is the height of her powers. There are no specific guidelines to reach that height other than her own willingness.

In the 1 million single issues the sword is shown in the cabinet and Morrison mentions it in notes and states it is indeed the Sword of Superman.
Interestingly this is omitted from the trade.

So it is relevant.

- Whirly

 

[LexCorp]

As I mentioned before regardless of all the crap just take both teams at their most powerfull and see who wins.

 

[grey_jeanie]

I wish I could say x-men, but honestly, probably JLA