Comics JMS off Amazing

[kainedamo]

I'm gonna post my argument again. It's went pretty much ignored. I don't want things being sidetracked because of Doomx's ranting. And sorry to farmernudie for any offense, it wasn't my intention as I have stated. You've taken me too literally. I could have been clearer when I said comic book fans were whiney though.

You're both fanboys. You can't accept that someone has a different opinion. Spider-Man is the character that got me into comic books. Its arguable that Spider-Man is what got me into wider literature. First, I watched the cartoons in the 90s. I was blown away. I fell in love with the character right there and then and couldn't wait to watch the next episode. Then I saw the comic book, sitting there in the newsagents, I had to buy it. Then I bought it monthly. I became interested in other superheroes, and picked up their books too. Then I started reading Frank Millar, and Alan Moore, Robert Crumb, and others.

I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan. I'm of a different generation. You and dan are completists. I buy comics for the sheer joy of reading them, not to complete a set like some Pokemon nerd. If something is a blatent disregard of continuity, I won't like it. For example, whats happening with Wolverine at the moment. There is no way his healing ability should be that good, both for the sake of story and because it flies in the face of previous storytelling. As for Gwen Stacy - was she away weeks, months? It happened so long ago, that it is the difference between my left hand and right hand. A writer should be able to tweak the past a little bit.

Could the story have been planned better? Yes. I would have loved to see the story as it was originally intended - with Peter being the Father. Should JMS have dropped the story when he couldn't have Pete as the Father? Maybe. But you have to consider, its likely JMS had already had things mostly scripted and planned out. Another thing you have to consider, these writers work on a very tight schedule. They don't have the luxery of taking a year long break to work on a big story, and work out all the kinks.

When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable. Except, of course, to fanboys. Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?

There are worse continuity flaws in the Civil War series, and all of that has only been written over the last year.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Look man, you are absolutely correct about the above. However anyone who loves a story based on continuity errors (and in my personal opinion, a complete lack of understanding of who the character is) and states that said continuity errors (enormous ones... in NO way small ones) are no big deal simply is not as big a fan as someone who is unaccepting of these errors. period.

That's like saying that someone who doesn't really care when the Dallas Cowboys lose is as big a fan as the guy who paints themselves in blue and silver each Sunday and weeps when the Dallas Cowboys loose simply because they've both been watching the games for awhile.

With all due respect, kanedamo, who are absolutely wrong on this point. Dan is a significantly bigger fan than you. This is obvious.

All it means is that kainedamo is not a traditional fan of Spider-Man. Dan1 is a traditional fan of Spider-Man. It doesn't mean that one is a better or bigger fan of Spider-Man. If you really want to gauge who is the "better" or the "bigger" fan the two gentleman should have a battle in Spider-Man trivia. From 1962 to present day and see who comes out on top. Then they can bicker about who is the better Spider-Man fan.

Besides it always gives me a chuckle when posters on here go around accusing other posters of not being "fans" because they enjoy something that the majority around here doesn't enjoy. It's like the schoolyard bully beating you up everyday because you said that Sins Past was an all right story. Heh.

 

[farmernudie]

kainedamo: Apologies. I wasn't calling you whiney, I was talking about comic book fans in general. I wasn't referring to you. I should have made that clearer.

Accepted. Thanks.

kainedamo... Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?

However, you're really coming out hitting hard towards Christians in your posts aren't you?? (a theme of yours...) Maybe lighten up a bit?? Sheesh...I don't see anything wrong with fundementalist christians...bad analogy and not needed to bring religion into your debates in such a negative light.

kainedamo: When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable.

I dunno.....it seems VERY noticable, to me i guess. That's alli can speak for. The fact that i read it in my life when it happened (published) and it is just feels like "yesterday" to me. Just like I remember the details of my own life, "just like yesterday", i guess. It'd be like if someone was talking about my mother (substituted for Gwen here) and said she was gone for a vacation for two weeks for example when i know it was a weekend. Or someone accusing my mom was acting one way or did something, when i just know as a fact she didn't, and that the accusation would be so silly and absurd.

That's just me and my example of how it seems so wrong to "me" personally, in my opinion. Just a simple example.

However, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that anyone else liked that storyline or didn't. You can have your feelings and that is totally ok with me personally. To me it was junky and innacurate, to others it was fun maybe. And the fact is, we ARE all fans, and we all have our own times in life that vary when we became hooked on Spidey, which would and does account for different perspectives.

And, It can be fun to debate this when everyone keeps it clean without putting down others too! It's not about being PC or not, but about being considerate and not making it personal and keeping to the point of the forum i think.

 

[kainedamo]

Accepted. Thanks.



However, you're really coming out hitting hard towards Christians in your posts aren't you?? (a theme of yours...) Maybe lighten up a bit?? Sheesh...I don't see anything wrong with fundementalist christians...bad analogy and not needed to bring religion into your debates in such a negative light.



I dunno.....it seems VERY noticable, to me i guess. That's alli can speak for. The fact that i read it in my life when it happened (published) and it is just feels like "yesterday" to me. Just like I remember the details of my own life, "just like yesterday", i guess. It'd be like if someone was talking about my mother (substituted for Gwen here) and said she was gone for a vacation for two weeks for example when i know it was a weekend. Or someone accusing my mom was acting one way or did something, when i just know as a fact she didn't, and that the accusation would be so silly and absurd.

That's just me and my example of how it seems so wrong to "me" personally, in my opinion. Just a simple example.

However, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that anyone else liked that storyline or didn't. You can have your feelings and that is totally ok with me personally. To me it was junky and innacurate, to others it was fun maybe. And the fact is, we ARE all fans, and we all have our own times in life that vary when we became hooked on Spidey, which would and does account for different perspectives.

And, It can be fun to debate this when everyone keeps it clean without putting down others too! It's not about being PC or not, but about being considerate and not making it personal and keeping to the point of the forum i think.

Thanks. Thats all fine, I have no problems with any of that at all.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I'm gonna post my argument again. It's went pretty much ignored. I don't want things being sidetracked because of Doomx's ranting. And sorry to farmernudie for any offense, it wasn't my intention as I have stated. You've taken me too literally. I could have been clearer when I said comic book fans were whiney though.

Your "argument" has been ignored because there isn't one.
You are still blindly focused on the time descrepancy of Gwen's trip and not on the fact that she never would have slept with Norman.

Now you feel free to talk in glittering generalities about how some people do this or that and toss in a few of your gratuitous insults of others that later you never seem to mean.... Your mouth getting away from you is a regular theme.

But in your generalizing about others... you've never seen inside those people's heads the way people do in comic character's thought balloons. We can see their inner person through that process and can therefore better gauge who they really are. So stop whining.

 

[kainedamo]

Your "argument" has been ignored because there isn't one.
You are still blindly focused on the time descrepancy of Gwen's trip and not on the fact that she never would have slept with Norman.

Now you feel free to talk in glittering generalities about how some people do this or that and toss in a few of your gratuitous insults of others that later you never seem to mean.... Your mouth getting away from you is a regular theme.

But in your generalizing about others... you've never seen inside those people's heads the way people do in comic character's thought balloons. We can see their inner person through that process and can therefore better gauge who they really are. So stop whining.

Gwen sleeping with Norman can't really be a continuity mistake. The time descrepancy is a continuity mistake. I wonder if you've even read my argument.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

You're both fanboys. You can't accept that someone has a different opinion. (AND I'M A MIND READER!) Spider-Man is the character that got me into comic books. Its arguable that Spider-Man is what got me into wider literature. First, I watched the cartoons in the 90s. I was blown away. I fell in love with the character right there and then and couldn't wait to watch the next episode. Then I saw the comic book, sitting there in the newsagents, I had to buy it. Then I bought it monthly. I became interested in other superheroes, and picked up their books too. Then I started reading Frank Millar, and Alan Moore, Robert Crumb, and others.

I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan. I'm of a different generation. You and dan are completists.(MORE MIND READING!) I buy comics for the sheer joy of reading them, not to complete a set like some Pokemon nerd. If something is a blatent disregard of continuity, I won't like it. For example, whats happening with Wolverine at the moment. There is no way his healing ability should be that good, both for the sake of story and because it flies in the face of previous storytelling. As for Gwen Stacy - was she away weeks, months? It happened so long ago, that it is the difference between my left hand and right hand. A writer should be able to tweak the past a little bit.

Could the story have been planned better? Yes. I would have loved to see the story as it was originally intended - with Peter being the Father. Should JMS have dropped the story when he couldn't have Pete as the Father? Maybe. But you have to consider, its likely JMS had already had things mostly scripted and planned out. Another thing you have to consider, these writers work on a very tight schedule. They don't have the luxery of taking a year long break to work on a big story, and work out all the kinks.

When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable. Except, of course, to fanboys. Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?

There are worse continuity flaws in the Civil War series, and all of that has only been written over the last year.

Yeah I read your little rant. There's just nothing like an "argument" in it. It's simply your attempt to make yourself feel superior by insulting others. Keep it up. It's kind of funny to watch people talk in circles.

 

[kainedamo]

"I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan" isn't offensive!

Anyway, there is pretty much no point in talking to you. Enjoy taking life too seriously.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

It implies you know something about either one of us. You do not.

But you are so liberal with your offensiveness, you obviously have no idea what's actually coming out of your (metaphorical) mouth.

You are correct about one thing: There is no point in your talking to me. You words aren't intelligent or powerful enough to actually annoy me... simply amuse... and at this point it's fairly obvious that you do not think before talking, so learning and growing through discussion is withheld from you. But I will continue to point out your obvious flaws... so it is best you discontinue speaking with (really about) me.

Enjoy being inadaquate. You've got a lifetime of it ahead of you.

 

[kainedamo]

I. Am. Doomx. And. I. Must. Have. The. Last. Wooooooooooooooooord!!!

 

[arachnid-guy]

So.....JMS off Amazing, eh?

Trying to get back on topic.

 

[matt50]

So.....JMS off Amazing, eh?

yea musta missed that in this thread

 

[Spade]

Don't you see? This is the plan of Darth Quesada and Darth JMS- to tear SHH asunder with this news. And we're playing right into it! In fact, here's an exclusive video of the two of them dancing!

http://darthvaderno.ytmnd.com/

 

[Doc Destruction]

Anyway, there is pretty much no point in talking to you. Enjoy taking life too seriously.

Painful irony.

 

[dan1]

Again, for the third time, I never said I was a bigger fan than you Kaindamo. Matter of 'Opinion,' you are probably a bigger Spider-Man fan then me right now. Because of all the continuity and character mistreatment the last 5 years, I have had little heart for current Spider-Man.

But to hear your response say that since you read Stan Lee Spider-Man and some Gwen issues and Sins Past, that your opinion couldn't possibly change on JMS' take on the characters and continuity, just seems completely stubborn to me. God forbid you may possibly change your opinion after reading 1,000 more comic books. For you to laugh at that and essentially guarantee otherwise just seems arguementative. You'll stand by your ground come hell or high water. That's pretty closed minded.

And for you Kaindamo to try to bury me as some fanboy who is trying to beat you in some pissing contest is preposterous. You complain about people not reading your posts. Seems to me you are reacting to my posts instead of reading them. How rigid and defensive can one person get.

Your response to my last post seemed like a politician taking out what he needed to SPIN the issue at least enough to get some illusioned credibility.

You are defensive. Quick to name call. You have not read a lot of backissues. But you continue to have an opinion on backissue continuity and character representation. You say you have the right to your opinion, but that doesn't mean you have any credentials. Besides your "well i have just as much a right as you" rant, how is your opinion worthwhile to a bunch of people talking seriously about how the lack of continuity and character during JMS' reign has actually done more bad than good overall, for the ASM comic book specifically? As far as I can see, again in overall "Amazing Spider-Man comic book talk" your opinion is important to me, to show what lack of continuity is enabling the new fan to become.

Lazy and uncaring about the past. Man did I enjoy going back 20 years to catch up when I was a kid.
Why don't you have an urge to do that? Because you don't truly care about continuity. We know this already. We're going in circles here.

We know you have a right to your opinion. We know, we know, we know. But it's an opinion based on an appreciation of a current writer\editor and what you envision as the Spider-Man personality based on the handful of issues you read. In my opinion for you to make blanket statements of what is important for the comic book called "The Amazing Spider-Man," you have to bring more than opinion and passion. You have to bring fact, and accept fact when you learn it.

JMS has spoken about how he didn't disrespect/fracture continuity or character during his run. You agree with him. Most people disagree. Because most people disagree, and most of those people have been reading Spider-Man during his obvious hey-day (the 80's) when comic books were king, No internet then, red flags get raised all over the place about JMS' run and his lack of accountability, and the dismal state of something that can be very special if treated special.

Again, enjoy Amazing Spider-Man all you want, but Ultimate Spider-Man was suppossed to be created so these arguements would never happen. JMS could have written all of these last 6 years there, and you would have enjoyed most of it, and I would have enjoyed the continuous saga, supporting characters, etc. without missing a beat in the 616 universe.

But because Joe Quesada has carte' blanche since the movie's success (and little need for the comics monetary success anymore), we have lived through what Joe Quesada believes is important, because he is in charge.

Marvel used to give us way more than our money deserved. Since the reader WAS their bread and butter. Now they string out lethargic, anti climatic comics with visions of Trade Paper Backs dancing in their heads. I guess everything evens out. Now we get less for our money. I never thought Spider-Man would "jump the shark."

We all lose I believe, even if the kids don't know, I know what they could have had if the creators actually cared about keeping it real the last 5 years. It's just a shame.

And I do believe that if a new editor came along and wiped out the last five years using continuity of plot and character, and really took writing the Amazing Spider-Man seriously, we would all be in for a treat and maybe comic books could become king again. It would have to mean a whole lot to that new editor. What's wrong with an editor having "fanboy" appreciation instead of wanting to rub elbows with movie stars and be a rock star. I'll take the first type of editor everyday of the week. Again, if you work for Marvel Comics as a writer or editor you should be prepared to know as much about the characer you are representing as the average "fanboy" devotee. If you don't, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. I'm sure there are very talented people who would line up to treat 616 Spider-Man comic books better.

I'm done with this. You have your opinion, and as far as Joe Quesada is concerned, your opinion is obviously more valid than mine.

-Dan

 

[farmernudie]

All sad but true. Marvel did use to give us more for our money. The fan back in those days meant everything to Marvel.

I'm done with this. You have your opinion, and as far as Joe Quesada is concerned, your opinion is obviously more valid than mine.

^again, very well put. The guy buying/supporting Spidey comics from the beginning, helping make him a success, like some of us have, isn't seen as the "Fan to make happy" by Marvel these days it seems...

 

[shinlyle]

All sad but true. Marvel did use to give us more for our money. The fan back in those days meant everything to Marvel.



^again, very well put. The guy buying/supporting Spidey comics from the beginning, helping make him a success, like some of us have, isn't seen as the "Fan to make happy" by Marvel these days it seems...

Well, Marvel is hellbent on bringing in "new fans" and creating a "younger fanbase". Both are neccesary to keep the medium alive, no doubt, but that also means that they are trying to constantly makes things "new" and "hip" to draw in the younger crowd. This is a disastrous way to think. When you constantly change things and alienate the older fans, you do far more damage than you do good.

How many of us have given a kid comics or taken a cousin or a brother to the comic book shop and gottent hem started on a collection of their own? I know I've done it for 5 or 6 that I know of. Now, if the books continue on this downward slide, how can I possibly justify passing this crap off to anyone with a large enough brain to read?

Ugh. I just wish Marvel would concentrate on making good books as opposed to getting a comic in the news every year. Don't get me wrong, events like CW, The Death of Superman, Batman being Broken, and all the like can generate alot of attention...but look at the recession that came after the death of the big "S"....

 

[ragingdemon155]

All it means is that kainedamo is not a traditional fan of Spider-Man. Dan1 is a traditional fan of Spider-Man. It doesn't mean that one is a better or bigger fan of Spider-Man. If you really want to gauge who is the "better" or the "bigger" fan the two gentleman should have a battle in Spider-Man trivia. From 1962 to present day and see who comes out on top. Then they can bicker about who is the better Spider-Man fan.

Besides it always gives me a chuckle when posters on here go around accusing other posters of not being "fans" because they enjoy something that the majority around here doesn't enjoy. It's like the schoolyard bully beating you up everyday because you said that Sins Past was an all right story. Heh.

I agree completely with this.

I never understood the term "real" or "true" fan. A fan is a fan and thats that.

 

[JayTee]

JMS off Amazing:

This is long overdue, but DEAR GOD YES.

 

[Captivated]

Well, Marvel is hellbent on bringing in "new fans" and creating a "younger fanbase". Both are neccesary to keep the medium alive, no doubt, but that also means that they are trying to constantly makes things "new" and "hip" to draw in the younger crowd. This is a disastrous way to think. When you constantly change things and alienate the older fans, you do far more damage than you do good.

How many of us have given a kid comics or taken a cousin or a brother to the comic book shop and gottent hem started on a collection of their own? I know I've done it for 5 or 6 that I know of. Now, if the books continue on this downward slide, how can I possibly justify passing this crap off to anyone with a large enough brain to read?

Ugh. I just wish Marvel would concentrate on making good books as opposed to getting a comic in the news every year. Don't get me wrong, events like CW, The Death of Superman, Batman being Broken, and all the like can generate alot of attention...but look at the recession that came after the death of the big "S"....

The original - and BEST - Spider-Man comics were pretty much ageless. When something is good... with quality and depth, it has mass appeal.

But, if they were interested in GOOD stories they would have done more with writers like Sean McKeever... (I'm going to be bitter about HIS loss for awhile...)

 

[Ultimate Kaine]

Fans turning on fans? This is pathetic - we should focus on our common likes/dislikes (there have to be some!) and build from there. I hate the internet... never any of this crap in comic shops/conventions (previously the only places for fans to commune, and it never lead to fistfights).

 

[SpideyInATree]

Fans turning on fans? This is pathetic - we should focus on our common likes/dislikes (there have to be some!) and build from there. I hate the internet... never any of this crap in comic shops/conventions (previously the only places for fans to commune, and it never lead to fistfights).

I remember being much younger and going into my local shop and the guys there would always be in a huge heated discussion. I wouldn't have called it fighting but it is basically along the lines of what goes on here. Maybe a little more tame at the shop than here. But here on the Internet we're all basically faceless people to one another and it's easy to act like a hard ass when you're typing on the Internet.

 

[matt50]

I remember being much younger and going into my local shop and the guys there would always be in a huge heated discussion. I wouldn't have called it fighting but it is basically along the lines of what goes on here. Maybe a little more tame at the shop than here. But here on the Internet we're all basically faceless people to one another and it's easy to act like a hard ass when you're typing on the Internet.

lol an "internet tough guy"

 

[SpideyInATree]

Yeah, you gotta watch your back around the Internet tough guys. They'll call your mom and ***** and then slap their monitor!

 

[matt50]

Yeah, you gotta watch your back around the Internet tough guys. They'll call your mom and ***** and then slap their monitor!