Killzone 2 showing straight after MS E3 Keynote, July 10th

[DoomRulz]

It's easier to mess up a high-profile console FPS than it is a top-down shooter on a handheld.

How do you figure? B/c there's less of what you can do on a handheld?

 

[XtromaniaK]

THe only things that wouldn't translate would be the tech used for each game, and the tech in Killzone 2 certainly isn't a problem. It's not like making competent AI is different on a top down shooter (which is much more that of an FPS than any other top down shooter) is all that different. If the level designers are talented enough to make good levels on Liberation then there will be good level design in Killzone 2 most likely. The core fundamentals of what are required to make Liberation and a good FPS are essentially the same.

It's not hard to make good level design on a handheld game, I'm sorry. You still don't seem to understand that the two don't translate, and they never will.

And no, I would say they're not fundamentally the same, they're not even in the same ballpark. Once again going back to the children's book - novel analogy.

 

[Zenien]

The PSP is issentially a portable console and things like level design and AI translate. If they're bad level designers than the level design for both games would be bad, but if you're a good level designer than you'll be able to design good levels for two things as close as a top down shooter and a first person shooter.

our book analogy is just wrong, seeing as these games are not markably different in tone or approach, and the technical side of it has come through in spades.

It's not taht I don't get it, I understand what you're saying, you're just wrong. Instead of using a flawed analogy why don't you explain how the fundamentals to Killzone Liberation are so different from the Fundamentals of a good FPS? Because saying "Well one is a handheld and one is a console is a paper thin defense. Nexy you're going to tell me taht the fundamentals of MGSPO was radically different from MGS3. They're the same game in that instance the only thing that needs to be addressed is how to tailor the game for a more handheld portable experience.

They're both shooters, they both rely on good AI, weapons, level design, mechanics. If you're a good level designer, the two are so close and compatible as to be a non issue, and the people who worked on Liberation were all the Killzone 2 team who shuffled around to work on the PSP version and were then reabsorbed..

 

[WhatsHisFace]

Top-down shooters have much different level and gameplay design than an FPS. It's understandable to think "Just change the viewpoint and it would be awesome" but it just doesn't work.

 

[Zenien]

You're not understanding, you can't just change the viewpoint, obviously, but the core fundamentals are the same, and things like proper flow of level design, placement of cover (Killzone uses Cover just like Liberation did) are transferable. What you think someone might just be a savant at doing an FPS style top down shooter (which is what Killzone is) and suddenly suck at making a proper FPS. Doesn't work that way.

 

[WhatsHisFace]

Because Killzone and Shellshocked were such awesome games.

 

[XtromaniaK]

The PSP is issentially a portable console and things like level design and AI translate. If they're bad level designers than the level design for both games would be bad, but if you're a good level designer than you'll be able to design good levels for two things as close as a top down shooter and a first person shooter.

our book analogy is just wrong, seeing as these games are not markably different in tone or approach, and the technical side of it has come through in spades.

It's not taht I don't get it, I understand what you're saying, you're just wrong.

How dumb can you be that you don't see the difference between a top down shooter on a handheld and console? Is it really that hard for your brain to process, or did you invest so much time and emotion into this game series that you can't see it any other way?

It's the same damn thing as a children's book -> novel. Nintendo 64 game -> Wii game. Grilled cheese -> Rib eye steak. All of them are the same. They all require much more effort and finesse to make than the "step" below them, and in the same way PSP game --> PS3 game. This analogy works for everything that requires copious amounts of skill invested to make right.

But whatever Zenien. I suppose we live in Bizarro world. The world where you're always right, and we "Xbots" are always wrong. Yep, that's all there is to it, we're just wrong. All - the - time. Can't match your NeoGAF-sent knowledge.

 

[WhatsHisFace]

How dumb can you be that you don't see the difference between a top down shooter on a handheld and console? Is it really that hard for your brain to process, or did you invest so much time and emotion into this game series that you can't see it any other way?

It's the same damn thing as a children's book -> novel. Nintendo 64 game -> Wii game. Grilled cheese -> Rib eye steak. All of them are the same. They all require much more effort and finesse to make than the "step" below them, and in the same way PSP game --> PS3 game. This analogy works for everything that requires copious amounts of skill invested to make right.

But whatever Zenien. I suppose we live in Bizarro world. The world where you're always right, and we "Xbots" are always wrong. Yep, that's all there is to it, we're just wrong. All - the - time. Can't match your NeoGAF-sent knowledge.

Don't forget to mention the much higher standards of FPSs to top-down shooters though. Halo 3, Crysis, Bioshock have left the world of FPS games much different than it was.

 

[DoomRulz]

That's because you 'Xbots' are jumping up and down crying wolf over a game that hasn't seen much light.

The only thing any of you are going on, Xbot or otherwise, is that the first game wasn't good and that this game lacks colour.

That doesn't mean you can come to a final conclusion about how this game will turn out.

Same goes to Z and other KZ 2 supporters. Looks good, but looks can be deceiving.

 

[Zenien]

Yeah wait and see, I'm not proclaiming it to be a revolutionary FPS, but I'd be very suprised if it wasn't a good FPS.

But whatever Zenien. I suppose we live in Bizarro world. The world where you're always right, and we "Xbots" are always wrong. Yep, that's all there is to it, we're just wrong. All - the - time. Can't match your NeoGAF-sent knowledge.

Hey it's not my fault that you can't actually form a credible arguement. No, genius, the PSP and the PS3 aren't the same.

 

[XtromaniaK]

That's because you 'Xbots' are jumping up and down crying wolf over a game that hasn't seen much light.

The only thing any of you are going on, Xbot or otherwise, is that the first game wasn't good and that this game lacks colour.

That doesn't mean you can come to a final conclusion about how this game will turn out.

Same goes to Z and other KZ 2 supporters. Looks good, but looks can be deceiving.

I'm basing it off of track record. Shellshock Nam? Sucked. Killzone? Glitchy, terrible hyped-up mess. Liberation has been their only good game, but it wasn't even for a console. It was for the PSP which, according to Zenien, is exactly like the PS3 and every other next gen console! Because, you know, they both play games.

 

[Zenien]

I shouldn't expect you to understand what I was saying, I guess it's much easier to view things in black and white to pigion hole your opnent, eh Extro?

Holy crap, I guess it's just a fluke that Hirokazu Yasuhara did awesome work on the Jak series. He was only the designer behind the levels of the 16 bit Sonic games, and those ruled. Yep not transferable at all.

 

[XtromaniaK]

Hey it's not my fault taht you can't actually forma credible arguement.

Nor is it my fault that you seem to quote a bunch of tinseled crap that you see directly from "hardcore" games forums with little to know idea what actually any of said crap means. Oh boy, and when it comes to actually thinking up an argument that you can't use said NeoGAF as your debate guide for.. well, we all know how that turns out.

Apparently, since I know how to make a ham sandwich and, fundamentally, making a ham sandwich is sort of like making a $20 burger, I can be a chef.

 

[XtromaniaK]

Holy crap, I guess it's just a fluke that Hirokazu Yasuhara did awesome work on the Jak series. He was only the designer behind the levels of the 16 bit Sonic games, and those ruled. Yep not transferable at all.

And I've also seen studios that made good 16-bit games that we haven't heard a peep out of since yesteryear. Guerilla is not known as being talented.

 

[Zenien]

Maybe you're stupid, but it's the tech side of the game, and the artists who are concerned with the graphics and your polygon/environment limit, you just place the overlayer of geometry for clipping and oject recognition, that's what the level designers do, theya ren't responsible for the entire burger.

Their job is to realize what makes compelling level design, something that is transferable between a top down shooter and an FPS. Period.

 

[WhatsHisFace]

Yeah wait and see, I'm not proclaiming it to be a revolutionary FPS, but I'd be very suprised if it wasn't a good FPS.

I'm sure it will be a reasonably decently designed shooter, like 7.5/10 material, but not the killer-app Sony so sorely needs, not worth the massive cash Sony's thrown at it and not a game to satisfy the wait PS3 fans are enduring for it.

 

[XtromaniaK]

Maybe you're stupid, but it's the tech side of the game, and the artists who are concerned with the graphics and your polygon/environment limit, you just place the overlayer of geometry for clipping and oject recognition, that's what the level designers do, theya ren't responsible for the entire burger.

Regardless, it does not translate. If a company is known as a bad console dev, and they make a good handheld game, does that now mean they know how to make a good console game? No? They aren't exactly known for their brilliance OR artistic savvy.

 

[Zenien]

8.5-9

 

[Zenien]

Regardless, it does not translate. If a company is known as a bad console dev, and they make a good handheld game, does that now they know how to make a good console game? No? They aren't known for their brilliance OR artistic savvy.

THe situation is different when they ahd a fraction of the talent over their for those two games that they do now. You want to know what Naughty Dog put out before being brought on by Sony for Crash? A terrible PS1 game called Way of the Warrior, or something.

You can't discount the New Guerilla Games, which has cash and manpower (Something the old one lacked) that is owned by Sony for what they did as an independant stupid that was just starting out after the merging of 3 other smaller publishing houses.

THe SHellshock team has long been dissolved AFK. They were let go/aborbed into the core team.

 

[XtromaniaK]

THe situation is different when they ahd a fraction of the talent over their for those two games that they do now. You want to know what Naughty Dog put out before being brought on by Sony for Crash? A terrible PS1 game called Way of the Warrior, or something.

Guerilla made two horrible games, and then a good handheld one. They have been untested on the console, and no amount of handheld success can translate to success on a console. As I said before, the Pokemon handheld games were good when they were for the Gameboy. The ones on console sucked. Most developers are only suited for one development style, not both.

 

[WhatsHisFace]

8.5-9

In a world where Bioshock and Halo 3 get 9/10s and The Darkness gets 8/10, there's no way Killzone 2 is getting a 9/10. I give it a good run for 8/10, but 7.5 is the most likely and I wouldn't be surprised at a 7/10.

 

[Zenien]

You do realize that the console Pokemon games were fundamentally different games than those on the GBA. They're essential a GUI upgrade for the gameboy game, and Pokemon Snap (The one original game) got great reviews.

 

[XtromaniaK]

You do realize that the console Pokemon games were fundamentally different games than those on the GBA. They're essential a GUI upgrade for the gameboy game, and Pokemon Snap (The one original game) got great reviews.

And Killzone Liberation is a fundamentally different game than a FPS. I doubt there's a developer out there that will tell you that those two types of games are 1:1.

 

[Zenien]

No one said they were 1 to 1.

Look Extro it's not your fault you can't properly address the nature of development, just let it go. You have yet to tell me how the core fundamentals aren't transferable, and while you were talking about some companies not making the transition from 16 bit to 3D, you conveniently ignored that said transtion is a much bigger paradgrim shift than Liberation to KZ2, by about a factor of 10. Talented 3D people will translate their skillsets over more times than not, absurdly talented people managed the 3D transition with ease.

 

[XtromaniaK]

Well that's what you're trying to tell me, that they are 1:1. That any success had on a handheld ("portable console") will translate directly to the console, the PS3. That is almost, if not entirely, the same as saying the two development cycles are 1:1.