Comics Latest Cup O' Joe and possible Spider-Man spoiler

[Meehaul]

Sure, he tried to live as normal a life as he could, within his responsibilities as Spider-Man. He dated, went to college, did all the things a "normal" person would do, but he always remained a man apart. His responsibilities as SM kept him from fulling realizing a "normal" life as Peter Parker. The tragedy came from without. And tragedy and loss defined Pete. When he tried to truly have a regular life, something from his spider-life would interfer and remind him of his responsibility to something greater than himself. Marriage, especially to MJ was, for me, a violation of everything I'd come to respect about the character.

In that context, much as I disagree with the way Marvel did it, I can understand the Mephisto deal. Pete sacrificed something important to him, his marriage, to achieve what he thought was a greater, non-selfish good, saving Aunt May. Now, people can, and certainly do, disagree with that take on the character, but Pete did, and does, make mistakes. He tries to do his best, or what he thinks is the right thing. Sometimes he's wrong. But that's understandable. My problem with The Other is that it re-wrote the whole purpose of the character and the accidental nature of the kid bitten by the radioactive spider and what chain of events that set up. Remember, if Pete hadn't chosen not to stop the killer, he may well have had a career in the entertainment industry. It was his personal mistake the set forth the chain of events leading to his career as a crime fighter. Thats the pathos of the character. His mistake leads to tragedy, a tragedy he tries to rectify. That's very different from the Superman/Batman/Captain America archetypes of other costumed heroes.

The marriage went against WGPCGR and the character's essence, in my view. But hey, people can, and do, disagree with that view. And, at the day's end, Marvel owns the character and has the final say as to what it's all about. No one's interpretation of what the character is all about matters except for Marvel's, really. Your interest in reading SM may be quite different from mine. I respect that. Even while I disagree with you, I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I dont understand how if I am a fan of the marriage I dont like change???? The marriage was change. Should it be discarded because someone decided to marry them and it wasnt a 20 issue crossover "The Courtship of Mary Jane"?

Good point!

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I guess it just came out of nowhere... a few issues before the proposal, MJ walks into Pete's apartment where the Black Cat was making him breakfast... the sudden proposal really came out of nowhere, and just reeked of being way too "gimmicky" for me...

But that's just me...

Don't make me come over there, TMOB!

As I responded in previous threads, Pete let Black Cat stay the night because her apartment blew-up (I was going to say he was suckered into it, but I was afraid of what the response would be ). He later said he felt guilty when MJ came over, and wasn't sure why since he and MJ weren't exclusive. This would indicate how his feelings were turning (And MJ was coming over to discuss their relationship).

So, I saw the proposal as a natural progression (they did have history in the 70's that did lead to the first proposal afterall). Though I guess you would prefer it they would decide to date steady. But, I do agree that they rushed the wedding. Pete proposes and then the Wedding Annual came out. They should have had an egagement era that they could have easily milked for 5 years and teasing, when are they going to set the date.

 

[roach]

maybe reed and Sue should divorce because thats not how the characters were originally created, maybe BP should divorce Storm for the same reasons....every comic book marriage is a gimmick

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Sure, he tried to live as normal a life as he could, within his responsibilities as Spider-Man. He dated, went to college, did all the things a "normal" person would do, but he always remained a man apart. His responsibilities as SM kept him from fulling realizing a "normal" life as Peter Parker. The tragedy came from without. And tragedy and loss defined Pete. When he tried to truly have a regular life, something from his spider-life would interfer and remind him of his responsibility to something greater than himself. Marriage, especially to MJ was, for me, a violation of everything I'd come to respect about the character.

In that context, much as I disagree with the way Marvel did it, I can understand the Mephisto deal. Pete sacrificed something important to him, his marriage, to achieve what he thought was a greater, non-selfish good, saving Aunt May. Now, people can, and certainly do, disagree with that take on the character, but Pete did, and does, make mistakes. He tries to do his best, or what he thinks is the right thing. Sometimes he's wrong. But that's understandable. My problem with The Other is that it re-wrote the whole purpose of the character and the accidental nature of the kid bitten by the radioactive spider and what chain of events that set up. Remember, if Pete hadn't chosen not to stop the killer, he may well have had a career in the entertainment industry. It was his personal mistake the set forth the chain of events leading to his career as a crime fighter. Thats the pathos of the character. His mistake leads to tragedy, a tragedy he tries to rectify. That's very different from the Superman/Batman/Captain America archetypes of other costumed heroes.

The marriage went against WGPCGR and the character's essence, in my view. But hey, people can, and do, disagree with that view. And, at the day's end, Marvel owns the character and has the final say as to what it's all about. No one's interpretation of what the character is all about matters except for Marvel's, really. Your interest in reading SM may be quite different from mine. I respect that. Even while I disagree with you, I can understand where you are coming from.

Hey, Meehaul. We've gone a couple of rounds on this before. I get where your coming from, and I think it you comes from a very much Steve Ditko view. If Ditko had stayed on, I think Pete would have evolved very differently. I think Pete would become a very strange loner. I mean no disrespect and it would be an interesting concept. But, for better or worse, that was not how it went. Pete actually became more confidnt (partly due to his abilities) and although he still has the ole Parker luck, he did not become that social misfit loner he could have become.

 

[roach]

I think some people would be content with Peter just sitting in his room waiting on crime to happen

 

[Meehaul]

Not me! I just thought a character who was good looking, married to a super-model living in a fancy apartment just didn't interest me much. Instead of having real problems, he just whined alot! I liked the idea of him being a grad student, having money problems, having difficulty dating, making and losing friends. I think that the marriage betrayed what interested me about the character. I kept reading, however, hoping that the character might move in a direction I found interesting again. It's always a fine line because Marvel is never going to allow the character to age much--as long as SM generates revenue, they're not going to "age" Pete out of the super hero biz. Married super heroes have always presented a challenge for comic book companies, whether Reed & Sue Richards, Ralph & Sue Dibney, the Murdocks, the Pyms, etc. Pete, in particular, never made a good "married" character. Part of the problem is that marriages in particular, present a tough thing to depict in comics. Do they have kids? Do the kids never age? Do we have a Simpsons scenario where Bart, Lisa & Maggie are forever young? It's just hard.

Despite the incredibly lame way in which in happened, a movement in a direction I preferred did happen. The character is now "evolving" down a different path. I'm really curious as to where all this is headed. One thing I think is clear is that Marvel is moving towards a day when comics are delivered digitally and collected in tpbs and hardcovers as "story arcs". Maybe the crazy creative switch ups we see on ASM will become standard fare in the future. But, its all fun.

 

[Meehaul]

Not me! I just thought a character who was good looking, married to a super-model living in a fancy apartment just didn't interest me much. Instead of having real problems, he just whined alot! I liked the idea of him being a grad student, having money problems, having difficulty dating, making and losing friends. I think that the marriage betrayed what interested me about the character. I kept reading, however, hoping that the character might move in a direction I found interesting again. It's always a fine line because Marvel is never going to allow the character to age much--as long as SM generates revenue, they're not going to "age" Pete out of the super hero biz. Married super heroes have always presented a challenge for comic book companies, whether Reed & Sue Richards, Ralph & Sue Dibney, the Murdocks, the Pyms, etc. Pete, in particular, never made a good "married" character. Part of the problem is that marriages in particular, present a tough thing to depict in comics. Do they have kids? Do the kids never age? Do we have a Simpsons scenario where Bart, Lisa & Maggie are forever young? It's just hard.

Despite the incredibly lame way in which in happened, a movement in a direction I preferred did happen. The character is now "evolving" down a different path. I'm really curious as to where all this is headed. One thing I think is clear is that Marvel is moving towards a day when comics are delivered digitally and collected in tpbs and hardcovers as "story arcs". Maybe the crazy creative switch ups we see on ASM will become standard fare in the future. But, its all fun.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Oh, and I don't think the problem is Pete married a super model, the problem was they turned MJ into a super model, a direction I did not like.

 

[Meehaul]

Well, that's what MJ wanted: modelimng and acting. It's the way the character "evolved". MJ was just always a poor fit for Pete. But hey, it's all part of history now! I'm hoping he hooks up with Betty or someone a bit less glamorous. I want a trail of dead ex gfs'! lol

 

[stillanerd]

Yeah, cause it's not like models or actresses can relate with, interact, or go out with freelance photographers in real life. Oh wait...THEY DO!

 

[kguillou]

I understand Meehaul's point 100% but i really think its a catch 22. Peter parker having money problems and not finding a date and being a loser is all good in theory but the problem is how long exactly can you write those kind of stories before it becomes redundant? Stan Lee, Ditko and Romita designed Peter Parker as as one of the few comic characters that actually grows up and progresses through the natural stages of life. He went through, high scool, college, dating, etc. he kept on growing and i think that was the problem from the start.

Once Peter got to the adult stage, Marvel start to panic cause they didnt know what to do with him. He had dated pretty much all of his supporting cast already so what was left except marriage? Now personally i feel like marriage doesn't have to be a dead end if you write it well, after i starting reading spiderman comics when peter was already married, so its not like having a married character is going to be unattrative to new readers. Even though he was married, he life was far from perfect, if anything it gave him more responsiblities to juggle.

Anyway, i too understand why marvel felt the way they felt about spiderman but i think it just sucks when a character who was always about natural progression is suddenly regressed. There had to have been another way to go about this.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Well, that's what MJ wanted: modelimng and acting. It's the way the character "evolved". MJ was just always a poor fit for Pete. But hey, it's all part of history now! I'm hoping he hooks up with Betty or someone a bit less glamorous. I want a trail of dead ex gfs'! lol

But, I think you are responding more to a stereotype MJ represented when she was first introduced as a ditzy party girl. I think that ignores the characterization she developed in the 70's & 80's. I think they made her quite a suitable mate for Pete. Though I will admit, many writers mishandled her character once they got married.

The supermodel thing was unfortunate because that came about at a time when supermodels were becoming prominent. They were doing a much better job keeping MJ as a struggling actress doing local modeling gigs.

 

[roach]

I understand Meehaul's point 100% but i really think its a catch 22. Peter parker having money problems and not finding a date and being a loser is all good in theory but the problem is how long exactly can you write those kind of stories before it becomes redundant?

Precisely. I have read all the high school stories and college stories, The lovable loser stories and the strapped for cash stories....Peter Parker went from a married man with a good job back to living with roommates and hard up for cash......its truely a shame when Archie is allowed to mature past Peter Parker

 

[Meehaul]

Or a sham when Pete is married for 20-odd years and sometimes he's with MJ, sometimes not--the marriage was going nowhere. Basically, the characters are stuck in married limbo or the characters are stuck in single limbo. Either way, the characters won't age or develop past a certain point. That's the Marvel way. If the characters are not going to age, I'd rather have Pete as a single guy than a married guy as there's more potential for conflict and relationships starting or ending. Personally, I wish they'd just killed off MJ and let Pete move on, but now that Marvel has a lot invested in the characters, they are loathe to kill off central people like MJ. We're always going to be stuck in this "age limbo" where the characters can't really evolve much. In my view, Marvel ought to just "re-set" the whole MU or it ought to go through 20 year cycles. The marriage really painted Pete into a corner though. Look, it's all just a matter of taste. There's no right or wrong here. People will forever argue as to whether Pete is more compelling as a married or single character. And neither side is likely to "win over" the other side. My own personal preference is that if we are going to have "ageless" characters, I prefer Pete single to married. There's a reason marriage come at the end of stories rather than the beginning. But that's only my narrow preference. The Archie stories, btw, are more a "What If" thing, they are not a new status quo for that character. He's going to revert back to the status quo soon. This is not just a problem for Marvel, its a problem with any comic character. Even the "Last Days of Animal Man," which is pretty good, is about some future time when Animal Man is losing his powers. It's just the way the conceit works!

 

[kguillou]

I can definitely dig that opinion. I mean, i grew up with the 90's Spiderman cartoon and the clone saga, so to me, thats how i will always see spiderman, the way he was portrayed in those stories. He was a more mature and more experienced in those interpretations. These days, Marvel's trying real hard to make him seem like his teenage, Ultimate counterpart, which is fine for some but not me i guess. I liked my mature Peter Parker, but hey thats just me, its all preference.

I just don't think marvel should be afraid that having an older, wiser spiderman would make him less relatable to new readers. I'm sure many many people got hooked on Spiderman in the 90's like myself, he doesn't necessarily have to be this perpetually young, inexperienced loser to be relatable.

 

[Meehaul]

In a way, I sort of wish the clone saga had "taken" with "Pete" being the clone and "Ben" being the real deal. Pete and MJ could have relocated to LA or Chicago or where ever and changed their identities and we could have had a married Spidey and Ben could have reamined in NYC and we'd have had a single Spidey. I suppose Marvel thought that wasn't economically viable and of course they saw that making "Pete" the clone unleashed a lot of fan anger. Still, it might have been interesting. I'll be curious to see what happens with the Ultimate Comics line. While it's clearly set in its own continuity, I have my doubts as to its long-term viability now that it's become "Spidey-lite" (not to mention "Universe lite"). USM sales have sort of dropped off and Marvel has shrunk the Ultimate line considerably.

 

[kguillou]

Spiderman sales in general are dropping off last time i checked. Even with the 3x a month thing, the sales are slowly declining, although i guess you could say thats normal for any title. That said, i dont think the ultimate universe has too much life left. I give it another 5 years until it dies. 616 spidey is pretty much identical to the ultimate spidey now, so there's really no need to read Ultimate anymore.

 

[Meehaul]

Yeah, i think that's probably right...the whole Ultimate line was sort of drifting into irrelevance. Sales of monthly comics, generally, are fading. Batman, the refernce book for the Diamond numbers, is selling consistently at or fewer than 100 K copies per month. The Dark Knight is a shadow of his former self! ASM x 3 actually does better than ASM + Friendly Neighborhood + Web of (or whatever). I suspect Marvel and DC are both headed in the direction of digital only monthly publications and direct subscriptions for what few physical books they sell, and then tpbs and hardcovers in published format. Newspapers and newsmagazines are certainly headed that direction. Comic book shops are dying and the big book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders only devote minimal rack space to new comics, but increasing space for the tpbs and hardcovers. I do think physical paper comics will stick around until a decent delivery system is developed. Reading comics on the iphone sucks--its too small. Reading comics on the Sony or Kindle readers sucks because they're not in color. Once a full color, net-enabled, reasonably priced ereader becomes available, then we'll see the end of published comics--except maybe for subscriptions. And that's only if advertising dollars hold out. We may laugh about those old Hostess ads, but Hostess was a big advertiser back in the day. An interesting exercise is to count up the number of pages of PAID (that is, an ad from a company other than Marvel or DC or their affiliates) in comics over time. ASM, which is Marvel's flagship, and Batman, which is DC's flagship, only average around six pages of paid advertisements now. I suspect the page rates now, adjusted for inflation, are considerably smaller than back in the days of 250 K sales!

 

[conjob_89]

If people are so hell bent about alledged "reset buttons", they must hate reading Batman & Superman....



Continuity hasn't been changed that much.. at least were not starting over... OMD was certainly not the best option, but it's working now and the title is far from "ruined"... perhaps in the eyes of "some" pretentiousw fanboys, but not in mine...

That's why you and others who are so blinded by the editorial ignorance of Quesada are the minority.


Uncle Ben must be spinning in his grave with rage . *sigh*

 

[kguillou]

To be fair, i imagine it was a tough call to make on Quesada's part. He knew that his decision to retcon the marriage would be very unpopular but he felt it was necessary to avoid Spiderman from becoming too old for readers to identify with. To be fair, Peter Parker was growing up and aging far more than any other marvel hero and i guess marvel was scared that at the rate he was going he would be an old man by the year 2020.

That said though, i cannot understand why Quesada thought Peter Parker, the poster boy of the marvel universe, making a deal with Mephisto would've been an acceptable decision. It really does put a permanent blemish on spider-man's mythos because we know that peter's new world is thanks to the devil. Whether marvel wants to admit it or not, Mephisto's prescence will now always be felt in spiderman's world...unless someone decides to be brave and retcon OMD.

 

[Meehaul]

Unless it was Peter Parker: Skrull who made the deal with MJ and Mephisto! Just kidding. I choose to look at it as a mistake, the sort of mistakes human beings make. The whole Peter Parker mythos starts with a spider-bite and a mistake--a mistake made by Pete that led to Uncle Ben's death. I like to think of the Mephisto mistake as a heroic mistake in that he was sacrificing something of importance to himself--the marriage--in return for saving a life. I can see choosing to end a marriage--especially if you believed that you'd "find one another again"--in order to save the life of someone you loved, and especially someone you'd placed in jeopardy. While not exactly a great answer, it's the answer I'm going with. It's impossible to retcon OMD and remove the stink surrounding it without having either 1) a good explanation for the behavior, like I chose to provide or 2) we discover Pete didn't actually participate. Or something.

I never much cared for MJ as a mate for Pete and I never liked the idea of Pete being married--I actually thought that was more a betrayal of how I perceived the character's core than the Mephisto debacle. That having been said, it was a phenomenally lame way to retcon the marriage. She should have just...died. Marvel could have allowed MJ to slip into memory. Then, fans twenty years from now would be arguing about how Carlie (or whoever) was Pete's greatest love, not MJ. And Gwen would be but a distant memory--sort of like Beatty Brant is today. I'm all for killing off supporting characters if it helps the story and is not merely a gimmick.

 

[Meehaul]

Double post.

 

[kguillou]

I can understand why they didnt wanna kill MJ off. Think about it, it woulda just made Peter even more depressed and we'd be stuck with a moping Spiderman for another 4-5 years until he finally forgets about her. Thats also why they didnt want them to get a divorce either. Realistically Peter would just become even more depressed losing MJ and thats not what marvel wanted. They wanted a lighter, funner book.

But with that said, i dont want them to change the current status quo, i JUST want them to change OMD itself. I dont care how, maybe reveal that at the last second Peter changed his mind and decided not to make the deal with Mephisto and got help from someone else. It sounds lame but if they can find a way to retcon the actual deal with Mephisto and keep everything the same, i think that would make things alot better.

 

[roach]

anyone who makes a deal with Mephisto is stupid. There are countless movies and tv shows depicting how making a deal with Mephisto isnt a good thing....on top of that he knows Ghost Rider. He teamed up with him countless times and knows his back story. Peter shouldnt have even thought about it.