The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Legitimate concerns about TASM 2 (NO BAITING AND BE RESPECTFUL)

My concerns:

1. Over-the-top, "Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face" style acting from Paul Giamatti, an outstanding actor who could put in a serious, believable performance.

2. Overly-convenient OsCorp connections to all of Spidey's villains, showing a lack of creativity by the screenwriting team.

3. Inconsistent use of physics in a world that is supposed to make us think that Spidey is amazing. If an inflated football can bend a football goalpost, and a cup of coffee yanked across a room on a web can remain unspilled, is a guy who can stick to walls more... or LESS... amazing? I vote "less", but that's just me.

4. Peter's father revealed to have created a "Spidey Cave", which Spidey now uses as a home base. This devalues the story of a struggling Peter Parker who uses his own scientific mind to problem solve, as well as the conflict of putting Aunt May at risk by living in her home.

5. Harry being shoe-horned in as Pete's lifetime pal, despite ZERO screen time in the first flick. We're supposed to feel empathy for a relationship that is built and destroyed in half of a movie?

6. Forced comedy. I think that the general tone in CBM since Avengers has been to keep a lighter tone, but I'm worried that this is going to translate to the entirety of the film and we'll be subjected to scenes like the plutonium cannister rescue (which imo comes off as silly instead of funny).

1. Rhino and Aleksey is supposed to be over the. He is a C-list villain.

2. When they tried to stuff more than one villain in a Spider-man film that ended up being a disaster, because they wanted to connect every villain to Peter. Now that everything is connected to Oscorp this problem is eliminated.But, of course it's very easy to assume that they lack "creativity". And the Rhino doesn't originate from Oscorp.

3. It's a CBM. That's all i'm going to say. You can say "So, does that mean that physics don't exist?" to which i will respond that it's not impossible for the ball to bend the post if it has the proper force and by the end of the first film Peter has learned how to control his powers so that he won't spill the coffee out of the mug.

4.It was nowhere hinted that Peter uses that hideout as a base. It was just a safe place that his father created so that he can tell to Peter what he found out about Oscorp.

5. You are just assuming things, since we don't know how he will be handled. Webb has proven that he can handle relationships, so i have faith.

6. Comedy is something subjective. But i think that that scene screamed Spidey. Even the villains said multiple times in the comics that Spider-man cracks stupid jokes. And most of the jokes that he cracks in the comics aren't even that funny. They are just used to showcase the duality in his personality.
 
You're right, all I'm trying to say is there were a TON of problems with SM3. Being crowded wasn't what made the movie terrible. It took away from it, but not as badly as the script itself. Didn't feel like a Spider-Man movie.

Agreed. Even if you allow that once Venom was in that meant the whole thing about "Dark" Peter had to be inserted, they still handled it all terribly. I mean, even the 90s animated series manged to do the symbiote (in a much more logical way that would have been so easy for Raimi to borrow since he had introduced John Jameson!), Dark Peter, Shocker, and Venom. The only difference is Raimi had Osborn to deal with. But other than the pathetic scene with the Butler (Bill Paxton's father BTW) they basically pulled that off. So yeah, I'm not saying someone couldn't make a great Spider-Man movie involving Sandman, Venom, and Harry Osborn. It's just that it's the only reference point we have.

Again, I am hopeful for the movie. But it's like if someone said "Hey, we're going to reboot the Fantastic Four. And this time the cast will include choices meant to appeal to the young crowd. And they're definitely gonna fight Dr. Doom. Who will be played by an actor not known for his gravitas. Be there!"

Again, it's not that Fox won't make a good a good new FF...."Well, I mean it's possible" to quote 12 Angry Men...But my spider-sense can't help but tingle.
 
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2. When they tried to stuff more than one villain in a Spider-man film that ended up being a disaster, because they wanted to connect every villain to Peter. Now that everything is connected to Oscorp this problem is eliminated.But, of course it's very easy to assume that they lack "creativity". And the Rhino doesn't originate from Oscorp.

I actually agree with you Perry on all your points except for I'd challenge you a bit on this one.

There's that shot that's been in almost all the trailers of some figure walking past objects that seem to refer to famous Spidey-baddies (Doc Ock tentacles and vultures wings I believe).

I don't think it's unfair to assume that the scene is set in some Oscorp something or other. So the original poster had a point.

As for your little "easy to assume" crack - I would counter with this -

To again go back to the 90s Spider-Man cartoon, just because I assume its something most of us have some degree of familiarity with, that show used Kingpin and Smythe to help generate a lot of its baddies. Whether it was them trying to create a foe who could defeat Spider-Man, or a catalyst for a baddie's creation, they were kind of set-up as a combination of the comic book Kingpin, the Tinkerer, and Justin Hammer.

The thing is, if Oscorp is somehow going to be used in a similar manner in this new Spider-Man Cineverse, I actually think it makes a degree of narrative sense.

There was a failed comic book reboot of Spider-Man's origin at the turn of the century called Chapter One. It was by John Byrne, and one of the things he did was have the accident that led to Peter being bitten by the Spider, be the same one that blew up in Dr. Octopus' face and cause the arms to be fused.

It was an unnecessary change and quickly retconned. But Byrne's argument was "Well, how many strange, nuclear power related, freak accidents can there be in one city?" I'm glad that his revision didn't stick but the man had a point. He was striving for realism and neatness that is unnecessary in comic books. But in a series of films? Maybe Byrne just had the wrong medium.

With the way a lot of people have origin fatigue, because if it's not the hero in the first film, it's the new villain in the sequel, having one organization at the heart of a lot of villains' creation makes a lot of sense. I think the Spectacular Spider-Man show did this, as did Mark Millar's run on Spider-Man.

So in a way I think you are both right. The OP is right in that, by having the stuff centered around Oscorp, they aren't being uber-creative in how they explain how each new baddie gets their powers. But I think you could be proven correct that it's the right decision.

After all, we didn't need to see The Dark Knight Batman kick the red hood into a vat of chemicals to be memorized by Ledger's Joker. A villain's origin only needs to be told in the movies if it somehow reflects the journey the hero is going on in that film.
 
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I actually agree with you Perry on all your points except for I'd challenge you a bit on this one.

There's that shot that's been in almost all the trailers of some figure walking past objects that seem to refer to famous Spidey-baddies (Doc Ock tentacles and vultures wings I believe).

I don't think it's unfair to assume that the scene is set in some Oscorp something or other. So the original poster had a point.

As for your little "easy to assume" crack - I would counter with this -

To again go back to the 90s Spider-Man cartoon, just because I assume its something most of us have some degree of familiarity with, that show used Kingpin and Smythe to help generate a lot of its baddies. Whether it was them trying to create a foe who could defeat Spider-Man, or a catalyst for a baddie's creation, they were kind of set-up as a combination of the comic book Kingpin, the Tinkerer, and Justin Hammer.

The thing is, if Oscorp is somehow going to be used in a similar manner, I actually think it makes a degree of sense.

There was a failed comic book reboot of Spider-Man's origin at the turn of the century called Chapter One. It was by John Byrne. And one of the things he did was have the accident that led to Peter being bitten by the Spider, be the same one that blew up in Dr. Octopus' face and cause the arms to be fused.

It was an unnecessary change and quickly retconned. But Byrne's argument was "Well, how many strange, nuclear power related, freak accidents can there be in one city?"

With the way a lot of people have origin fatigue, because if it's not the hero in the first one, it's the new villain in the sequel, having one organization at the heart of a lot of villains creation makes a lot of sense. I think the Spectacular Spider-Man show did this, as did Mark Millar's run on Spider-Man.

So in a way I think you are both right. The OP is right in that, by having the stuff centered around Oscorp, they aren't being uber-creative in how they explain how each new baddie gets their powers. But I think you could be proven correct that it's the right decision.

Thanks for agreeing. There is also something else from a practical standpoint. It's very easy to have multiple companies and accidents to create the villains in the comics and in the cartoons because... you know, you have a lot of episodes to properly develop your plot. But in 2:30 hour movie things are a lot more difficult. They could have created multiple companies to create the villains, but that would make the movie feel even more stuffed with subplots that aren't resolved.
 
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Thanks for agreeing. There is also something else from a practical standpoint. It's very easy to have multiple companies and accidents to create the villains in the comics and in the cartoons because... you know, you have a lot of episodes to do properly develop your plot. But in 2:30 hour movie things are a lot more difficult. They could have created multiple companies to create the villains, but that would make the movie feel even more stuffed with subplots that aren't resolved.

Absolutely. We're on the same page. And I am encouraged by learning that the Rhino is, as far as we know, not connected to Osborn.

For all the superhero films we've gotten, as far as I remember, we've only had one scene, ever, showing a hero taking out a known costumed adversary and never hearing from that bad guy again. The hero just doing his thing on parole, and cleaning up the streets. The scene I have in mind is Batman taking out the Scarecrow in The Dark Knight. I literally can't think of another example.

Back when the Raimi films were coming out, and especially leading up to the third one, I was so hopeful they'd have an early scene showing Spidey just taking out The Shocker, or The Beetle, or one of those villains you can feel pretty secure would never be the main baddie in a potential sequel. Bendis made a running gag of Spidey taking down the Shocker throughout Ultimate Spider-Man, the cartoons do this all the time. It's such a easy way to throw in an action scene, get the crowd into it, and buy yourself some good graces to do some set-up and exposition in the first act. Not for nothing but the James Bond people do those cold opens for a reason.

So the idea that I may finally be getting something in that vein (not necessarily pre-credit I know) with this Rhino sequence makes me very happy.

I do hope Webb picks up on how Nolan handled the Batman Begins to The Dark Knight, and from what I know he is doing just that, by showing that in the time between movies things have just gone on. Spider-Man has been establishing himself, the city has been changed, etc.

For as much as I love the first two Raimi films, they don't flow together seamlessly. At least not in a world building sense.


K, another topic for consideration -

I mentioned this in another thread but I'll paraphrase/rephrase here.

For those of us who have an...educated hypothesis on what may happen to Gwen in the film, how are you approaching that scene?

The "The Night Gwen Stacy ******" is probably the most famous Spider-Man story after his origin tale (let's not debate this...either way it's near the top of the list). Ever since the very first Raimi Spider-Man it's been hanging over the film version of the character. That movie, in an odd choice in retrospect, co-opted the Bridge (though they used the Queensboro and not the Brooklyn Bridge) for just an action scene.

I doubt we will get something that adheres slavishly to the original book, in fact I doubt we will see the Brooklyn Bridge at all. But - are you worried that the knowledge that Gwen is really only known for one thing make what may be coming just seem like a checked box?

I know we have to see how the actors play it. I mean, you can see a performance of Othello 100 times and still weep at the end. The performances and the direction could sweep you up every time. But, usually with comic book movies we are excited about the thing we recognize from the comic - The first time Nightcrawler BAMFED, the call back to Batman Year One in Batman Begins, Mary Jane calling Peter "Tiger". This time we are all anticipating a moment that should be filled with dread. Is there something a bit troubling about that?
 
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1. Rhino and Aleksey is supposed to be over the. He is a C-list villain.

Disagree. You don't have to give a ridiculous performance just because you're playing a C-list villain. Look at Tommy Lee Jones vs. Aaron Eckhardt for Two-Face.

Cap 2 has frickin' BATROC ZE LEAPER as a serious threat in the film and does it very well. Don't tell me that you have to make lower-tier villains into laughingstocks...

And c'mon... Rhino is definitely NOT a C-Lister Spidey villain. Try Boomerang, The Kangaroo, or Puma as C-listers. Rhino was part of the Sinister Six, which makes him a lower level A-Lister for Spidey or a B-Lister at worst. If you can't admit this, we'll never agree on this point.

2. When they tried to stuff more than one villain in a Spider-man film that ended up being a disaster, because they wanted to connect every villain to Peter. Now that everything is connected to Oscorp this problem is eliminated.But, of course it's very easy to assume that they lack "creativity". And the Rhino doesn't originate from Oscorp.

Why does every villain need to be connected to Peter? This is lazy screenwriting - it's an effort to quickly establish an emotional connection to the hero. The villain does NOT need to be related or connected to the hero - see The Dark Knight's Joker for this.

3. It's a CBM. That's all i'm going to say. You can say "So, does that mean that physics don't exist?" to which i will respond that it's not impossible for the ball to bend the post if it has the proper force and by the end of the first film Peter has learned how to control his powers so that he won't spill the coffee out of the mug.

This is your WORST rebuttal. Of course it's a comic book movie, man. And in order for us to be amazed at the coolness of it, we have to accept a comic book world that the main character inhabits. However, in order for us to accept this world seriously, we have to have set of rules in this world that makes us believe that our hero is doing fantastic things. This is the reason that I hated the "cafeteria catch" in Spider-Man, and that I hated the cranes and the cheesy damn football goalpost bending in ASM - if we have to suspend our disbelief for everything, the content becomes total cheesy camp.

I knew that Batman Forever was going to suck immediately after the bank vault slid right back into the hole it came out of - totally cheesy and unacceptable for any kind of reality. I knew right then that we were in for a total camp fest.

BTW - the football would NEVER bend the goalpost - it would explode on contact before it bent the post. But whatever... it just took me out of the scene and had me wondering why - even if Pete COULD bend the goal post - that he would do it in an age where everyone has camera phones, or at the very least, would tell stories about their freak classmate who could throw a football hard enough to defy physics. Wouldn't that blow the cover that he's trying to keep by wearing a mask?

The Spider-Man movie I want to see is one that makes me imagine our current world with a superheroic spider dude swinging around in it - every time you break the rules of physics in the movie, you remind the audience that it's not a real world. Call me crazy for having higher expectations than Michael Bay or Joel Shumacher stuff.

4.It was nowhere hinted that Peter uses that hideout as a base. It was just a safe place that his father created so that he can tell to Peter what he found out about Oscorp.

Okay - we'll see.

5. You are just assuming things, since we don't know how he will be handled. Webb has proven that he can handle relationships, so i have faith.

Again - we'll see. If we know from the onset that Harry becomes the Green Goblin and then attacks Pete and potentially kills Gwen, do we really care about anything that he says or does with Peter earlier in the movie?

6. Comedy is something subjective. But i think that that scene screamed Spidey. Even the villains said multiple times in the comics that Spider-man cracks stupid jokes. And most of the jokes that he cracks in the comics aren't even that funny. They are just used to showcase the duality in his personality.

Disagree - I think the best Spidey writing is one that showcases his humor - he was the original Deadpool before Deadpool started borrowing his schtick. I won't mind it if there are some jokes that fail for me if they are delivered in the context of the character. If they're consistently lazy, though, I'll be disappointed. Either put some effort into it or don't do it at all.
 
And c'mon... Rhino is definitely NOT a C-Lister Spidey villain. Try Boomerang, The Kangaroo, or Puma as C-listers. Rhino was part of the Sinister Six, which makes him a lower level A-Lister for Spidey or a B-Lister at worst. If you can't admit this, we'll never agree on this point.

I mean...Rhino was technically part of the Sinister Six. It was for one story, the most recent story arc to feature the Sinister Six and it was just because Kraven is dead and Vulture was in one of those limbo states comic characters tend to go in. When the Sinister Six first formed in the 60s, when they reunited in the late 80s, and then again in the mid 90s...basically what everyone thinks of as the Sinister Six...Rhino wasn't in it.

Ranking these things can be a rabbit hole but I don't think it's unfair to consider the Rhino a C-lister for Spider-Man. For starters, he's spent some time being a hulk nemesis. So don't act like a know-it-all dude


Why does every villain need to be connected to Peter? This is lazy screenwriting - it's an effort to quickly establish an emotional connection to the hero. The villain does NOT need to be related or connected to the hero - see The Dark Knight's Joker for this.

I just...I can't. I can't. You didn't get what he was saying at all.


The Spider-Man movie I want to see is one that makes me imagine our current world with a superheroic spider dude swinging around in it - every time you break the rules of physics in the movie, you remind the audience that it's not a real world. Call me crazy for having higher expectations than Michael Bay or Joel Shumacher stuff.

Everything Spider-Man does breaks the rules of physics.

I get that the football scene took you out of the movie. These things happen and it wasn't my favorite moment either. But the sci-fi or fantasy movie that perfectly adheres to the rules of science, or even the rules that the movie has established, is few and far between.



Again - we'll see. If we know from the onset that Harry becomes the Green Goblin and then attacks Pete and potentially kills Gwen, do we really care about anything that he says or does with Peter earlier in the movie?



Disagree - I think the best Spidey writing is one that showcases his humor - he was the original Deadpool before Deadpool started borrowing his schtick. I won't mind it if there are some jokes that fail for me if they are delivered in the context of the character. If they're consistently lazy, though, I'll be disappointed. Either put some effort into it or don't do it at all.[/QUOTE]
 
I ain't gonna lie and I'm not trying to hate this because I dislike TASM but Peter throwing the football and it bending the goal post was one the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever seen in a film. I mean it just made no sense. It was so ****ing stupid I mean, what?
 
I ain't gonna lie and I'm not trying to hate this because I dislike TASM but Peter throwing the football and it bending the goal post was one the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever seen in a film. I mean it just made no sense. It was so ****ing stupid I mean, what?

Well, that was one thing in a movie from two years ago. There's nothing to indicate there will be something like that in the new one. Every superhero franchise has a few WTF moments. Especially in the first one when the team is trying to find the tone. Let's move on from the football.

What did people think about my Gwen question?
 
The dialogue. From what I've seen in the trailers it comes off as corny and forced like it did in TASM.

Andrew Garfield.

Over-the-top nerd Electro.

That's pretty much it. :lips:
 
The only thing I don't like is all the villains coming from oscorp.
 
I'm cautiously optimistic. My main concern is that they may be throwing a bit too much in for the sake of their (questionable) annual Spider-Man film plan.
 
My concerns:

1. Over-the-top, "Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face" style acting from Paul Giamatti, an outstanding actor who could put in a serious, believable performance.

6. Forced comedy. I think that the general tone in CBM since Avengers has been to keep a lighter tone, but I'm worried that this is going to translate to the entirety of the film and we'll be subjected to scenes like the plutonium cannister rescue (which imo comes off as silly instead of funny).

These are my concerns too.

Harry being shoe-horned in as Pete's lifetime pal, despite ZERO screen time in the first flick. We're supposed to feel empathy for a relationship that is built and destroyed in half of a movie?2. Overly-convenient OsCorp connections to all of Spidey's villains, showing a lack of creativity by the screenwriting team.

3. Inconsistent use of physics in a world that is supposed to make us think that Spidey is amazing. If an inflated football can bend a football goalpost, and a cup of coffee yanked across a room on a web can remain unspilled, is a guy who can stick to walls more... or LESS... amazing? I vote "less", but that's just me.

2. Overly-convenient OsCorp connections to all of Spidey's villains, showing a lack of creativity by the screenwriting team.

Harry in the comics often goes away for extended periods of time, from the trailers I think they sell the idea of this rich kid leaving when young for a fancy boarding school and returning rather well.

I'd say this qualifies as nit-picking. For instance I could bring up Black Widow grabbing the Chitauri hover-jet ski being impossible without having her arm ripped off or leaping from it and landing without breaking every bone in her body. But these are things you just ignore for the sake of entertainment.

That's the way it is with Oscorp in the comics. It's the equivalent of SHIELD in the MCU or Wayne Enterprises in TDK trilogy.
 
Well, let's see.

The Goblin design is good god in heaven awful
Harry being Goblin first ruins the whole Goblin legacy. Let's not make Carnage come before Venom in the next one, just because...granted I hate symbiotes, but you get my point. :rolleyes:
Oscorp is apparently in the freakin' supervillain making business?????
Max Dillion being extremely whiny and a stereotypical nerd.
CGI looks like a PS3 game
Rhino looks like CRAP, a Dinobot reject.
"A best friend from the past who comes back as a mortal enemy" cliche, despite any references to them even knowing each other in TASM
Paul Giamatti gives one of the most hammiest performances ever, despite the fact that he's a well enough actor to know when to be hammy and not.

There's more, but that's what comes to mind the most.
 
I won't argue any of the other points you've brought up, as that's your personal opinion, but STILL with the CGI??? Have you not seen the final trailer? Especially on the big screen it is fantastic. I can't understand anyone thinking it looks like a PS3 game. Reviews from people who have seen the 33 minute preview also said pretty unanimously that the visuals were stunning.
 
I saw it in front of CA:TWS, and yes. Some of the CGI is bad.

Also, people said the same thing about GL before it came out, look what we got there lol.
 
I dont care for the Rhino and Goblin redesigns. I dont like that Norman seems to have nothing more than a cameo in this series.

I actually dont mind anything about Electro.
 
Which parts of the CGI looked bad to you? Just wondering. Would you at least agree that the swinging looked great? I thought that in particular looked brilliant.
 
I dont care for the Rhino and Goblin redesigns. I dont like that Norman seems to have nothing more than a cameo in this series.

I actually dont mind anything about Electro.

Norman will have a bigger role in TASM3.
 
While I'm here, I'll add some things I may be concerned about just to show I'm not a complete fanboy :woot:

1) Not sure if all of the humor will work. Laundry sheriff = meh.

2) Will Harry's motivations be satisfying enough? We'll see.

3) Will Kurtzman and Orci deliver the annoying plot holes we've come to expect from them?

4) Will everything flow together well? Will all the characters get their due or will some things feel rushed? How will the pacing be?

5) Will Max be TOO nerdy, and thus unbelievable?
 
I like humour in films and with Spidey. I like what I've seen so far, but I hope it all works out. Rapid fire gags can be either hit or miss. At worst, they fall flat. The car thief stuff in TASM kind of did for me. I saw a TASM2 trailer before Cap 2, and the silence after the trailer was kind of awkward. I'd hate that to be the greater public reaction.
 
People complaining about physics, they are at least a couple of occasions in TWS where Captain America falls from like 100 feet and is still unharmed

Me being a medical student can guarantee that even if somebody survives a fall like that, he will have at least a dozen major fractures on his body

But did I let that trouble me? No because the overall movie was fantastic and we have to look past such things
 
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Me being a medical student can guarantee that even if somebody survives a fall like that, he will have at least a dozen major fractures on his body

I had the same thought - even though he's a supersoldier, surely he's not that invulnerable?! :doh:
 
Here are my worries in no particular order.

Electro legit summons dubstep with his powers. It is offputting.
Rhino in a mech suit? Rightio
GG is Harry? And looks like a meth addict? And wants to kill spiderman and is peters best friend for some god forsaken reason? K
Norman Osborn seems to play a small role which kinda sucks.
If Gwen does die, it'll be at the hands of Harry Osborn which seems weird.

CGI looks aweful, that's pretty objective I reckon.
"Tacky" humour

Can't think of much else right now
 
My concerns are:

1. The humor: I know that Spiderman uses jokes all the time.... But a lot of the times, it doesn't translate well on media such as films.
2. The s***** music: I only really hate one part of the music.... And it better be on like a few seconds. Otherwise, I'll be PISSED.
 

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