List of Things Batman Returns got Right/Wrong

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

You must FACE IT!

There is more wrong with the Burton movies than right.

I almost think of those movies as PARODIES.

Look at Frank Miller's The Spirit that would be an awesome look for a BATMAN movie.

A cool guy, not a nutjob like Burton saw the character!

Did you read all the batman Frank Miller material? ... that guy is an over rated hack that turns Batman into a 'NUTJOB' every chance he gets! - IMHO

But i digress...

Remind yourself that what you just stated is your opinion and nobody must Face anything!

Burton's interpretation of Batman was a layered and damaged one, which, i hate to say it, was more interesting than Nolan/Bales' 'I must state and explain everything i'm doing, even when my audience can see me doing it', 'Super-Batman'.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

You must FACE IT!

There is more wrong with the Burton movies than right.

I almost think of those movies as PARODIES.

Look at Frank Miller's The Spirit that would be an awesome look for a BATMAN movie.

A cool guy, not a nutjob like Burton saw the character!

Thank you for stating your OPINION. Noted.

Now stop being pathetic and move on.

 

[TLH]

I would say the Burton motifs are"right" for Batman but they certainly were a lot of fun and visually enticing in BR. It makes it stand out in my mind, which is why it's my favorite. The Gotham during Christmas was way cool.

 

[The Navigator]

Right-
-No Robin.
-Batsuit.
-Batmobile.
-How the bat-signal looks in the sky (my favorite out of all the films, including begins).
-Batman's efficient sense of brutality (good extrapolation from B89)
-The architecture(Gotham looks twice as nasty in the wintertime, naked man-statues or no).
-The attention to visuals--Selina's glasses underlit to look like cat's-eyes, the extreme -close-up of Penguin's monocle when he turns in the library, and so on.
-Bruce giving Alfred crap for letting Vicki into the cave.
-Not being a direct sequel--episodic is not a bad thing.
-How little Batman talks to people--as it should be.
-Selina's transformation was really well done.
-Catwoman's moral ambiguity.
-The love-hate relationship between Bat and Cat, up to the dance.
-The contrasting matte look of Batman's costume to Catwoman's shiny-ness.
-The Penguin's cheerfully hateful demeanor.
-Penguin's vexation when Bats foils his kidnapping plot.
-The penguin missile assault. You could totally see that in any era of Batman comic books.
-Batman using Bats to lure Penguin to his fate--a cool payback for his frame-up earlier.
-Most of the jokes/humor.
-Catwoman and Penguin's goals are nice and succinct (compare to Joker's semi-aimlessness)

Wrong-
-The cave. I don't know what those little whirligigs are, but they are a poor replacement for that stocky bat-computer. Too horizontal, as well.
-Catwoman. She's so over-the-top it's distracting.
-"How could you? I'm a woman!" "I'm sorry..."
-Batman getting his @ss handed to him by everyone except thugs. Even the Penguin gets him in a chokehold, for pete's sake.
-The way things just kind of happen for no reason. Batman is instantly suspicious of Penguin without cause. Penguin very conveniently obtains blueprints of the Batmobile and can compromise without difficulty. Selina just rejects Bruce's offer of a happy ending without any explanation.
-Batman being unable to do anything to prevent the Ice Princess' death.
-The Batmobile being taken control of. This just rubs me the wrong way no matter how I try to rationalize it. The only good part is where the car screeches to a halt three feet away from that old woman and Batman just looks at her.
-The Batskiboat. Whaaaaa...?
-Batman is never cleared of the Ice Princess' murder, which I wouldn't mind so much if the film hadn't ended with the batsignal lighting up.
-The police are just worthless here. They could have at least stopped the kidnapping plot and proven their worth.
-How in B89 the mayor's fear is that Gotham is going to lose all its business, and how in BRet a businessman holds the mayor by the throat.
-A power plant to drain power? Why?
-The vulnerability of the Batsuit. Catwoman can just plain stab him in the gut, and the mask can be ripped off with a minimum of effort. (Compare to B89, where Joker punches Batman and comes away with a busted hand)
-Scratching the CD.
-Bruce just sitting there, waiting for the Batsignal to light up.

 

[TLH]

^I'm surprised you disliked Catwoman. I thought she stole the show.

 

[The Navigator]

I understand that whole "theme of duality" thing he was going for, but she was so "breathy" and "sexy" it came off as ridiculous. But to be fair, that's really the only thing I disliked about her. Her goals were clear, her sense of what was "over the line" was satisfyingly nebulous, her transformation/costume was cool, and her relationship with Batman (aside from some real cheesy lines) was nice handled.

I think Penguin stole the show, if anything.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Wrong-
-The cave. I don't know what those little whirligigs are, but they are a poor replacement for that stocky bat-computer. Too horizontal, as well.
-Catwoman. She's so over-the-top it's distracting.
-"How could you? I'm a woman!" "I'm sorry..."
-Batman getting his @ss handed to him by everyone except thugs. Even the Penguin gets him in a chokehold, for pete's sake.
-The way things just kind of happen for no reason. Batman is instantly suspicious of Penguin without cause. Penguin very conveniently obtains blueprints of the Batmobile and can compromise without difficulty. Selina just rejects Bruce's offer of a happy ending without any explanation.
-Batman being unable to do anything to prevent the Ice Princess' death.
-The Batmobile being taken control of. This just rubs me the wrong way no matter how I try to rationalize it. The only good part is where the car screeches to a halt three feet away from that old woman and Batman just looks at her.
-The Batskiboat. Whaaaaa...?
-Batman is never cleared of the Ice Princess' murder, which I wouldn't mind so much if the film hadn't ended with the batsignal lighting up.
-The police are just worthless here. They could have at least stopped the kidnapping plot and proven their worth.
-How in B89 the mayor's fear is that Gotham is going to lose all its business, and how in BRet a businessman holds the mayor by the throat.
-A power plant to drain power? Why?
-The vulnerability of the Batsuit. Catwoman can just plain stab him in the gut, and the mask can be ripped off with a minimum of effort. (Compare to B89, where Joker punches Batman and comes away with a busted hand)
-Scratching the CD.
-Bruce just sitting there, waiting for the Batsignal to light up.

more things from the RIGHT SECTION derserve to be WRONG!

 

[Superwoman Prime]

P-G-R, I'm itching to see you banned.

 

[The Joker]

more things from the RIGHT SECTION derserve to be WRONG!

Opinion, look it up in the dictionary some time.

 

[Numez]

Right:

- All the scenes that are good.

Wrong:

- All the scenes that suck.
- This thread.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

P-G-R, I'm itching to see you banned.

Isn't that actually "infraction worthy"? t:

 

[Morg]

Isn't that actually "infraction worthy"? t:

No I just ban

 

[Mister J]

more things from the RIGHT SECTION derserve to be WRONG!

I'm growing tired of your routine, myself.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

I'm growing tired of your routine, myself.

And I'm growing tired of the "every interpretation is valid, let's hold hands and sing around a nice fire"

t:

 

[The Guard]

-The cave. I don't know what those little whirligigs are, but they are a poor replacement for that stocky bat-computer. Too horizontal, as well.

Is this really something we can call "wrong"? The thing looks like a realistic supercomputer with many monitors. No, it's not THE Batcomputer from the 1980's, but that would cause eye strain.

He didn't live in a gymnasium cave either. Was that wrong?

-Catwoman. She's so over-the-top it's distracting.

That's really half the charm of the performance, and fairly faithful to the comic book portrayal of both early Catwoman stories and that era.

-"How could you? I'm a woman!" "I'm sorry..."

Batman's a nice guy. What?

-Batman getting his @ss handed to him by everyone except thugs. Even the Penguin gets him in a chokehold, for pete's sake.

And Batman flipped him right off. As I recall, The Penguin surprised him. I know the current Super-Batman doesn't ever get surprised, but the Batman of the 70's, 80's, and 90's wasn't perfect. Even Bigger Melvin got the drop on him once.

-The way things just kind of happen for no reason. Batman is instantly suspicious of Penguin without cause.

Batman's a somewhat paranoid character. Him suspecting people others don't is part of what makes him such a good detective. He doesn't take things at face value. You're telling me that a mysterious Penguin man emerges from the sewers, sides with Max Schreck, who Bruce already distrusts, makes a big deal about wanting all these records, and Batman should just be like "kay"?.

Penguin very conveniently obtains blueprints of the Batmobile and can compromise without difficulty.

Ra's Al Ghul provided them.

Selina just rejects Bruce's offer of a happy ending without any explanation.

It's right there. She doesn't like not getting revenge, and there's a hint that she doesn't like what she's turned into much.

-Batman being unable to do anything to prevent the Ice Princess' death.

What do you want him to do, exactly? He can't save everyone.

-The Batmobile being taken control of. This just rubs me the wrong way no matter how I try to rationalize it. The only good part is where the car screeches to a halt three feet away from that old woman and Batman just looks at her.

Despite the absurdity of it, the resulting scene is fantastic. Batman being framed, his vehicle plowing through all kinds of cars, etc, and him fighting to regain control of it.

-The Batskiboat. Whaaaaa...?

Well, you see...it's a boat on skis. Batman is prepared. Sort of like a leaping tank for those escapes where you have to jump over rooftops.

-Batman is never cleared of the Ice Princess' murder, which I wouldn't mind so much if the film hadn't ended with the batsignal lighting up.

The film does end with the bat-signal lighting up over Gotham City. And then Catwoman rises into frame and looks at it. Remember?

-The police are just worthless here. They could have at least stopped the kidnapping plot and proven their worth.

True, but in what Batman movie have the police not been worthless?

-How in B89 the mayor's fear is that Gotham is going to lose all its business, and how in BRet a businessman holds the mayor by the throat.

Time passes. Things change.

-A power plant to drain power? Why?

So he can store it, so that he has a power surplus that he can use as leverage. The movie explains this pretty clearly.

-The vulnerability of the Batsuit. Catwoman can just plain stab him in the gut, and the mask can be ripped off with a minimum of effort. (Compare to B89, where Joker punches Batman and comes away with a busted hand)

A hand is not a sharp claw. It's obvious that she reaches around to where he is not as heavily armored. Where is it ever written that the mask cannot be removed? It seems very pliable in BATMAN when The Joker's thugs lift it off his face to get a look at him.

-Scratching the CD.

?

Bruce just sitting there, waiting for the Batsignal to light up.

And you know he's just sitting there waiting for the signal to light up how? Because we see him sitting there?

 

[I Am The Knight]

I'm growing tired of your routine, myself.

Uh oh. A BAN is formed....

 

[Numez]

Did someone just defend a Batmovie without bringing up another Batmovie? It's a miracle.

 

[BubbaGump]

Right:

- All the scenes that are good.

Wrong:

- All the scenes that suck.
- This thread.

Heh.

 

[The Navigator]

Is this really something we can call "wrong"? The thing looks like a realistic supercomputer with many monitors. No, it's not THE Batcomputer from the 1980's, but that would cause eye strain.

He didn't live in a gymnasium cave either. Was that wrong?

I also missed the giant penny and the dinosaur. But you're right, neither of those things are "wrong."

That's really half the charm of the performance, and fairly faithful to the comic book portrayal of both early Catwoman stories and that era.

It just came across as silly, most of the time. But most of that fault is the writer's.

And Batman flipped him right off. As I recall, The Penguin surprised him. I know the current Super-Batman doesn't ever get surprised, but the Batman of the 70's, 80's, and 90's wasn't perfect. Even Bigger Melvin got the drop on him once.

I'm not saying he should be perfect and never surprised--I just wasn't convinced that a secretary (who, yes, could have taken martial arts in her spare time) or Danny Devito could put up with him in any physical way--Penguin even lands a blow on Batman, if I recall, breaking the "switchblade" on his umbrella.
On the other hand, Selina is mentioned to be somewhat athletic, as she sourly comments how she should have let an ex "win that last game." (I think it was racquetball)

Batman's a somewhat paranoid character. Him suspecting people others don't is part of what makes him such a good detective. He doesn't take things at face value. You're telling me that a mysterious Penguin man emerges from the sewers, sides with Max Schreck, who Bruce already distrusts, makes a big deal about wanting all these records, and Batman should just be like "kay"?.

I'm saying Bruce would more logically interpret this as Max Shreck stealing the spotlight and rapidly associating himself with an unexpectedly benign occurance to gain some goodwill. The Penguin just stands there, gives the baby back, makes a small speech, and Max sides with him. However, I see your point on Batman's paranoia/detective qualities.

Ra's Al Ghul provided them.

What do you want him to do, exactly? He can't save everyone.

I don't know...throw a line to/around her while she's standing on the ledge, or immediately run over and grab her when Penguin throws his "lawn dart." Pretty much anything other than what he did, which was to stare at her, wide-eyed, while she panicked and fell.

Despite the absurdity of it, the resulting scene is fantastic. Batman being framed, his vehicle plowing through all kinds of cars, etc, and him fighting to regain control of it.

He taps on the guages, bangs on the guages, rips some wires from the roof, and punches through the floor. It didn't strike me as consistent with the established character, who is able to operate all manners of custom-built vehicles and weapons, and knows enough about their function to repair them.
(The Penguin's lines, the action and the music were awesome, though.)

Well, you see...it's a boat on skis. Batman is prepared. Sort of like a leaping tank for those escapes where you have to jump over rooftops.

That never made sense either, even with Lucius' hilariously contrived explanation.

The film does end with the bat-signal lighting up over Gotham City. And then Catwoman rises into frame and looks at it. Remember?

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. Because the movie ends this way--with the police calling or Batman--is why I dislike him never being cleared of murder. My apologies for the miscommunication.

True, but in what Batman movie have the police not been worthless?

In B89, they manage to surround and curtail the majority of Napier's gang in the Axis chemical plant, and in Begins they raise the bridges to prevent the chaos from spreading further, after they discover firsthand they can't stem the tide personally. Gordon himself destroys the monorail's support struts--the only reason Batman was able to save the day.
In BRet, the police do not make any kind of attempt to stop crime except when Batman is a suspect.

Time passes. Things change.

Why would the businesses come back after people were gassed to death in the street and the police publicly join forces with a vigilante? It was inconsistent with the groundwork laid in the first movie.

So he can store it, so that he has a power surplus that he can use as leverage. The movie explains this pretty clearly.

Okay. I need to watch it again, then.

A hand is not a sharp claw. It's obvious that she reaches around to where he is not as heavily armored.

I know she says as much, but I could swear in the close up shots, she stabs him, and he pulls the claw out of, an area right next to his abs. (This could just be a goof, since the suit IS still established as bullet-proof)

?

His little "DJ" moment.

And you know he's just sitting there waiting for the signal to light up how? Because we see him sitting there?

Touche.

 

[The Guard]

It just came across as silly, most of the time. But most of that fault is the writer's.

A woman acting like a cat tends to be a pretty silly concept. But that's something that comes from the comic books, not just this particular portrayal. As for fault, it depends on if you didn't like her dialogue, or her performance. Her performance is not the writer's fault, and her dialogue was very in line with Catwoman in the comics. Most of her lines were fairly down to Earth.

I'm not saying he should be perfect and never surprised--I just wasn't convinced that a secretary (who, yes, could have taken martial arts in her spare time) or Danny Devito could put up with him in any physical way--Penguin even lands a blow on Batman, if I recall, breaking the "switchblade" on his umbrella.

And when The Penguin landed a blow, which Batman pretty clearly allowed him to do, it did nothing to Batman. Nothing. It broke on his armor. Obviously Burton's Batman wasn't about people never landing blows, as evidenced by the first movie.

On the other hand, Selina is mentioned to be somewhat athletic, as she sourly comments how she should have let an ex "win that last game." (I think it was racquetball)

Indeed. And a dual personality is a wonderful thing.

I'm saying Bruce would more logically interpret this as Max Shreck stealing the spotlight and rapidly associating himself with an unexpectedly benign occurance to gain some goodwill.

The Penguin just stands there, gives the baby back, makes a small speech, and Max sides with him. However, I see your point on Batman's paranoia/detective qualities.

Except that it's pretty obvious Max isn't the most savory character, at least not really, despite what Gotham thinks. I would imagine Bruce knows this. He takes an interest in the Penguin not just because of the mysterious circumstances, but out of sheer curiousity given their similarities.

I don't know...throw a line to/around her while she's standing on the ledge, or immediately run over and grab her when Penguin throws his "lawn dart." Pretty much anything other than what he did, which was to stare at her, wide-eyed, while she panicked and fell.

Throw a line to her, which would likely either scare her or cause her to lose her balance and plummet to her death. The second Batman appears on the roof, he says "Be careful. Don't move". He's going to go get her. And then Penguin appears and throws the umbrella. He was all the way across the roof, and he does at least move in her direction when the bats start flapping around her. He's there when she falls, he's just unable to save her, which is why it looks like he's pushed her.

He taps on the guages, bangs on the guages, rips some wires from the roof, and punches through the floor. It didn't strike me as consistent with the established character, who is able to operate all manners of custom-built vehicles and weapons, and knows enough about their function to repair them.
(The Penguin's lines, the action and the music were awesome, though.)

He rips the wires out because he knows that is the guidance system's controls. Then he has the presence of mind to record The Penguin. Then, when The Batmobile identifies the foreign controls, he PUNCHES THROUGH THE FLOOR. And then, he knows enough about how the car works that even though he's destroyed elements of it, he knows which two wires to put together to activate the Batmissle feature. If that aint Batman being resourceful and knowledgeable about his vehicle, nothing is.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. Because the movie ends this way--with the police calling or Batman--is why I dislike him never being cleared of murder. My apologies for the miscommunication.

I agree, it's a bit of a dangling plot thread. There's a great moment that wasn't shot that includes Gordon and I think the Mayor...

"Do you think he'll ever forgive us?"
"No, but he'll always help us".

In B89, they manage to surround and curtail the majority of Napier's gang in the Axis chemical plant

And they fail to catch Napier, or too many of his gang. Batman does most of the work, even then.

and in Begins they raise the bridges to prevent the chaos from spreading further, after they discover firsthand they can't stem the tide personally.

True, which, given the villain's plot, would accomplish nothing in the end, had Batman not saved the day. The whole point of Batman existing is that he can tackle threats the police are ill equipped to handle.

Gordon himself destroys the monorail's support struts--the only reason Batman was able to save the day.

True.

In BRet, the police do not make any kind of attempt to stop crime except when Batman is a suspect.

Don't know what to tell you. It's Gotham. The crime we see in the movies is all "under the radar" type stuff for the most part, and not the kind of thing a police force would be on top of in any real way.

Why would the businesses come back after people were gassed to death in the street and the police publicly join forces with a vigilante? It was inconsistent with the groundwork laid in the first movie.

Why do people still live in certain areas of New York after 9-11? Life goes on. It's not like all of Gotham was gassed, just that one main street. What do businessness have to do with Batman's presence in Gotham?

I know she says as much, but I could swear in the close up shots, she stabs him, and he pulls the claw out of, an area right next to his abs. (This could just be a goof, since the suit IS still established as bullet-proof)

She moves around behind him, to where there isn't any armor. You can see what she's doing, and like you said, she says as much. She stabs him in the side there, behind the more rigid armor plating.

"No...that's not you...ah...there you are".

His little "DJ" moment.

Insult to injury?

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I'm not saying he should be perfect and never surprised--I just wasn't convinced that a secretary (who, yes, could have taken martial arts in her spare time) or Danny Devito could put up with him in any physical way--Penguin even lands a blow on Batman, if I recall, breaking the "switchblade" on his umbrella.

Well, in Catwoman's case, he was hesitant to hit her until he finally got fed up with being hit. I thought this was pretty clear in the film when he started blocknig and hit her, while having an annoyed look on his face.

I'm saying Bruce would more logically interpret this as Max Shreck stealing the spotlight and rapidly associating himself with an unexpectedly benign occurance to gain some goodwill. The Penguin just stands there, gives the baby back, makes a small speech, and Max sides with him. However, I see your point on Batman's paranoia/detective qualities.

Well, as any detective should, he's going to cover every base. Sure, Max went to the Penguin's side, but maybe there's a reason for it, perhaps Max did it for a greater reason than winning some fame. So he checked the old newspapers in the Batcave to see if he was right, which is the entire point of the scene down in the cave. When Alfred asks Bruce if he feels better (because he proved the Penguin was a seedy character), he says "Actually, I feel worse" becuase he wanted to believe that the Penguin was clean.

I don't know...throw a line to/around her while she's standing on the ledge, or immediately run over and grab her when Penguin throws his "lawn dart." Pretty much anything other than what he did, which was to stare at her, wide-eyed, while she panicked and fell.

Realistically, although the film covers many angles, that would have happened within a few seconds, before Batman could think of an effective avenue of resuce. By the time a few seconds went by and Bruce decided "just run and grab her" it was already too late.

He taps on the guages, bangs on the guages, rips some wires from the roof, and punches through the floor. It didn't strike me as consistent with the established character, who is able to operate all manners of custom-built vehicles and weapons, and knows enough about their function to repair them.

He couldn't effectively repair anything until he knew where the error was in particular. The Batmobile's diagnostic told him where, and he went to it.

Why would the businesses come back after people were gassed to death in the street and the police publicly join forces with a vigilante? It was inconsistent with the groundwork laid in the first movie.

I think that Shreck's appearance could have easily repaired things, similar to how Lex Luthor wanted to buy most of Gotham after "No Man's Land" he could have brought his successful chain of retail stores to Gotham and repaired the economy and the town square.

But that's just a guess.

 

[The Guard]

The businesses never left Gotham. I think you guys are misinterpreting that line. The businesses refused to sponsor the anniversary parade because people were scared. But they didn't leave Gotham. The "business" issue was just about who was going to pay for the parade. The Joker fixed that by staging it himself.

 

[TLH]

I understand that whole "theme of duality" thing he was going for, but she was so "breathy" and "sexy" it came off as ridiculous. But to be fair, that's really the only thing I disliked about her. Her goals were clear, her sense of what was "over the line" was satisfyingly nebulous, her transformation/costume was cool, and her relationship with Batman (aside from some real cheesy lines) was nice handled.

I think Penguin stole the show, if anything.

Fair enough, but maybe I was so distracted by the sexual aura of the performance that I never really looked at it as "bad". I don't think I can ever see it as bad (phew).

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Well, as any detective should, he's going to cover every base.

Burton's BAtman a detective? Funny.

I think "Bombermurderman" would be more appropriate

 

[CFE]

Burton's Batman a detective? Funny.

I think "Bombermurderman" would be more appropriate

So how would you explain Batman deciphering the chemical solutions of Joker's 'Smilex' toxin?

Because I'm pretty sure it would take more than 'Bombing' and 'Murdering' to figure it out...

CFE