Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[Hunter Rider]

Oh, thanks for clearing that up.

persoanly im hoping he does take the role,the Sam J UF choice is not so interesting IMO

 

[Arach Knight]

Does anyone think that the current House Of M: Black Panther series could be a great starting point for a solo film for T'Challa AND Storm together?

I mean let's look at it: A sapien and Mutant Queen ruling over Africa, and facing common enemies i.e. Kraven or even Ian McKellan as Magneto. A film shot in native Africa would give those two characters plenty of time to do the following:

*Delve deep into Storm's origin--her loss of her parents at a young age

*Show how Ororo was worshipped by tribes for her Goddess-like dominion over the elements and agriculture

*Delve deep into T'Challa's origin and explain his royalty

*By having the two characters in a love story, the need for relationships will be satisfied

*Mind-blowing SFX with the weather etc. could be created against an African landscape

If two notable actors of colour were cast for these roles, I bet this concept would make one helluva splash at the box office. As long as the writing is good the possibilities are endless. All people have to do is get creative!

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I couldn't have said it better Arach.

 

[James"007"Bond]

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.

Bingo.

 

[Bluefire]

As an african american female i was immediately drawn to storm.Mostly due to the fact that not only was she one of few black superheros she was a female, who lead a team and was incredibly powerful.In those days comic book women were screaming for their lovers to come save them and most black characters spoke horrible ebonics but storm was none of those things.while i did find a rich and compelling character in storm i found that as time went on she started heavily lacking her ethnicity. she would no longer wear her african beads, jewells or cloth she wouldn't even mention her homeland.You would think as the only black mutant on the team she was on she would be shown to deal with some racism but we never saw that.it was like the ethnicity in storm was sucked dry turning her personality into that of a mild mannered white woman [no offense].When storms hair became braided i was begining to think that maybe the old storm would return to me and while pieces of her appear once and awhile the old ororo appears to be dead.As for my opinions on x2 storm she doesn't even deserve to be called storm she lacks ANY substance and has been nothing but a device used to enhance OTHER characters personalities and not her own.Truth be told this isn't the first time, storm was given the exact same crappy treatment in x-men evolution. all the other x-men were made younger while storm was turned into a granny that would appear once and while to do magic tricks for the kiddies then disappear. the producers of x-men evolution commented that they never really got storms character but i'm sure the split personality freak rogue and the psychotic loving mother/babbling psycho mystique's personality were so much easier to understand [not sarcasm]. Basicly The only way they can possibly redeem storm in x3 in my eyes is put back that tragic origin scene of hers give her some god damn character development give her a civilian outfit that represents her deep ties to africa like comic storm use to do and for the love of god make her FLY! they call her a weatherwitch for a reason!

 

[OutcryX]

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.

DIARY OF A MAD BLACK WOMAN
Production Budget: $5.5 million
Domestic: $50,633,099 + Overseas: $19,104

= Worldwide: $50,652,203

THE HONEYMOONERS
Production Budget: $25 million
Domestic Total Gross: $12,843,849

BEAUTY SHOP
Production Budget: N/A
Domestic Total Gross: $36,351,350

Now, I dunno about Beauty Shop( the movie was ...meh) But The Honeymooners was a complete and total disaster. Never ever ever should have been made.
But Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a run away success. It was number one when released. It goes to show that Black Folk will invest their money in christian themed family oriented fare. The funny thing is, Tyler Perry is gay...but thats another story, nor is it confirmed..kinda like Luther Vandross. None of these movies are blockbusters but it does show that there IS an audience for an all black cast film. Other races may not go to them b/c they feel like the movie isnt marketed for them...like they are made especially 'for us, by us' which in most cases is kinda true. But a film like Storm, who has millions of fans across the racial spectrum shouldnt be made as or marketed as a blaxploitation kinda film or a film made only for blacks.

A Storm film or a Black Panther film CAN do well and very well. Blade proved that. and he is a MUCH lesser known character than Storm, slightly if not neck and neck with Black Panther. People WOULD go see a movie about black heroes set in Africa...they wouldn't expect a WHITE hero set in Africa.

People *****ed about Catwoman(a film i enjoyed) because Halle Berry was in the role. The character had none of the origin, name, setting, abilities, background OR race as the comic it was based upon. If the movie had been called anything else, people wouldnt have *****ed. Not everything has to be set in NYC or americanized in general.

Besides a Black Panther starring Djimon Hounsou would rock our worlds. Luke Cage.....I would say Michael Jai White....but he was already Spawn....
Storm...if not played by Halle Berry....Nona Gaye would be good.
​

 

[MJB]

DIARY OF A MAD BLACK WOMAN
Production Budget: $5.5 million
Domestic: $50,633,099 + Overseas: $19,104

= Worldwide: $50,652,203

Tyler Perry is gay

[/color][/left]

Tyler Perry is GAY?? Whoa! I don't know a lot about him, but I never heard he was gay. At any rate it's his business, but i'm glad you posted the figures for the guy who said it was a bomb financially.

 

[Arach Knight]

Blade is different. It doesn't even involve the Marvel logo. On top of that, it isn't a movie set in Africa with an all black cast. I didn't say black people are doomed if they try to take a leading role. I said an all black super hero film set in Africa, isn't going to do well nation wide. How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for super heroes. Especially one they don't know about. T'Challa isn't the same as having Blade, who is a vampire hunting martial artist. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal...

 

[JP]

Tyler Perry is NOT gay.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Damn, this thread is turning out better than I even expected. Thanks to all of ya'll for your input...keep 'em coming!

 

[terry78]

I think black audiences will support it. There are quite a few of us that do read comics and are into them, hence so many of us making sure we see every new one that comes out. Even the most thuggish ignorant dude you know more than likely has comics stashed somewhere, or reads them in the store at least.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I too think it could be a great box office blow-out if done right. The key to a successful outing like what Terry's mentioning boils down to 5 things:

*A strong cast

*A strong director

*A studio who believes in this project

*A powerful script

*Savvy marketing

 

[tamron]

The main reason "Diary" worked was because it was adapted from a wildly successful series of stageplays by Tyler Perry. It's name recognition in the black community made it an almost automatic success, even though the general public had no idea what it was. It also didn't hurt that Perry was very smart with bankrolling and filming the movie (fronting his own money for production, filming in his home,) which increased profit.

 

[The Storm]

I still haven't a chance to see 'Diary' but from one review I read I heard it was very corny. I think a black superhero film could possibly if done properly as I said before. With rap/rnb as the most popular form of music and seeing more black actors on the A list IMO there is an audience for it. As long as the marketing was done properly and the studio are behind as Lightning said.

 

[OutcryX]

I still haven't a chance to see 'Diary' but from one review I read I heard it was very corny. I think a black superhero film could possibly if done properly as I said before. With rap/rnb as the most popular form of music and seeing more black actors on the A list IMO there is an audience for it. As long as the marketing was done properly and the studio are behind as Lightning said.

The movie was a bit corny and a little long as well....but overall was enjoyable. They threw alot of subplots in that needed tying up too(The drug addicted aunt who happens to be the wife of the main character's lawyer, Madea's house arrest, the new love interest, revenge again the former husband, the ex husband's underworld dealings....) the movie had alot going on. was good. but not for repeat viewings...kinda like the plays, IMHO.

But back on topic....An all black cast Superhero film set in Africa CAN work. As stated by others, If the subject matter is taken seriously and the studio and director and cast are all behind it...it can work. i had more to say...but I got distracted and lost my train of thought...oh well.

 

[Arach Knight]

I don't want anybody to be of the idea that I am heavily against this sort of film. I am the kind of person that formulates an opinion to express my own view, rather than a superficial belief. To my experince, ethnic movies just don't do well. Even if they have the catch of super heroes, I honestly don't see a massive audience. $55 million is great for Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but if you look at the monsterous success of Marvel's recent films....I think Punisher did the worst and even that mostl likely reached/topped $100 million. I love a good "ethnic movie." In fact, I own The Debut, Better Luck Tomorrow, "O" and Save the Last Dance. Of all of those, only Save The Last Dance succeeded on a wide scale. I'd be willing to attribute that success to its MTV aimed themes and white lead actress as the story focus. But you look at "O" (which carries over many of the same themes found in Save The Last Dance) and that movie did horrible. I don't know how much one is willing to contribute to coinscidence, when "O" is the film with the lead actor being a black male. So I honestly don't know. I don't think Storm and T'Challa would have a shot in hell up against most other films of hte same genre.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.

I disagree. While I don't think there should be a Storm solo film, location & skin color have nothing to do with it. And Halle Barry didn't play Catwoman; she played CINO. She didn't play Selina Kyle in Gotham City. The uproar was b/c the movie was crap, not because of her color. Same goes for the Honeymooners. Like many of the TV-to-film adaptations of the past year, it was just plain unwanted. (I personally don't wanna see a guy calling himself Ralph Kramden, who never threatens his wife.) And for that matter, the public has thus far embraced a black Pete Ross, Kingpin, (moreso than not) Alicia Masters, Harvey Dent, Agent J-not to mention a Chinese Lana Lang, a British Magneto, a Scottish Nightcrawler &, most recently, a Welsh Batman!
Give people a good movie & they'll come. To say that these "racial barriers" can't be overcome is like saying we should just stick to movies like "Soul Plane", b/c that's all that Black people can ever hope for.

 

[Arach Knight]

I never said they can't be over come. It is a demographic thing. Obviously movies like Soul Food, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Jungle Fever, Malcom X, Do The Right Thing, Higher Learning etc etc...all succeed when compared with movies like Honeymooners, Soul Plane, Beauty Shop etc etc. But they cater to a different demographic. Comics have done some amazing things, but using a comic movie to break new ground isn't going to happen. And if you notice, I simply said having the film be in Africa, with the two of them, isn't going to work. I clearly offered a remedy that put the same two black characters, in a familar back drop (New York). So they can do a movie with the two of them...but it would fail if it were set in New York. I would wager dollars to pecos that the movie would gross 3 times as much money, were it based around their X-Man/Avenger lives, rather than limiting their rogue gallery and scenery, to Africa. And for the record, I just want it to be known that I now officially abhor the term "CINO" Not to your personal fault though Chris. It is just one of those irksome internet acronyms like "lol" or "afk" that just get to me...

 

[Nathaniel_Essex]

I'd be tempted to say do a "Heroes For Hire" movie, but someone will say that having a black super hero only doing it for the loot would be degrading and racist. As for the black panther and storm thing, i'd say why mix them to start? Storm has a fantastic story, from losing her parents, to her being trained as a thief, to becoming worshipped as a goddess. thats more than enough for 1 film. i'm not too knowlageable on black panther, but i'm guessing the same can be said for him.

 

[comic book girl]

As an african american male i was immediately drawn to storm.Mostly due to the fact that not only was she one of few black superheros she was a female, who lead a team and was incredibly powerful.In those days comic book women were screaming for their lovers to come save them and most black characters spoke horrible ebonics but storm was none of those things.while i did find a rich and compelling character in storm i found that as time went on she started heavily lacking her ethnicity. she would no longer wear her african beads, jewells or cloth she wouldn't even mention her homeland.You would think as the only black mutant on the team she was on she would be shown to deal with some racism but we never saw that.it was like the ethnicity in storm was sucked dry turning her personality into that of a mild mannered white woman [no offense].When storms hair became braided i was begining to think that maybe the old storm would return to me and while pieces of her appear once and awhile the old ororo appears to be dead.As for my opinions on x2 storm she doesn't even deserve to be called storm she lacks ANY substance and has been nothing but a device used to enhance OTHER characters personalities and not her own.Truth be told this isn't the first time, storm was given the exact same crappy treatment in x-men evolution. all the other x-men were made younger while storm was turned into a granny that would appear once and while to do magic tricks for the kiddies then disappear. the producers of x-men evolution commented that they never really got storms character but i'm sure the split personality freak rogue and the psychotic loving mother/babbling psycho mystique's personality were so much easier to understand [not sarcasm]. Basicly The only way they can possibly redeem storm in x3 in my eyes is put back that tragic origin scene of hers give her some god damn character development give her a civilian outfit that represents her deep ties to africa like comic storm use to do and for the love of god make her FLY! they call her a weatherwitch for a reason!

Hallelujah. Finally someone says it.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I never said they can't be over come. It is a demographic thing. Obviously movies like Soul Food, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Jungle Fever, Malcom X, Do The Right Thing, Higher Learning etc etc...all succeed when compared with movies like Honeymooners, Soul Plane, Beauty Shop etc etc. But they cater to a different demographic. Comics have done some amazing things, but using a comic movie to break new ground isn't going to happen. And if you notice, I simply said having the film be in Africa, with the two of them, isn't going to work. I clearly offered a remedy that put the same two black characters, in a familar back drop (New York). So they can do a movie with the two of them...but it would fail if it were set in New York. I would wager dollars to pecos that the movie would gross 3 times as much money, were it based around their X-Man/Avenger lives, rather than limiting their rogue gallery and scenery, to Africa. And for the record, I just want it to be known that I now officially abhor the term "CINO" Not to your personal fault though Chris. It is just one of those irksome internet acronyms like "lol" or "afk" that just get to me...

The Black Panther/Storm movie isn't going to happen. A Black Panther solo film would be a marketing disaster if aimed at just one demographic. And breaking nwe ground w/a comic film can happen. What do you think the first "Batman" did?
And I call Patience Phillips "CINO" b/c I refuse to call her "Catwoman". She's not Catwoman by any definition other than her name.

 

[X-Maniac]

Good arguments here, great thread.

The things that come to my mind at this late hour are:

1) When i first watched X1, I thought Storm was 'different' but fine - she was shorter, her powers were toned down, she had her moments - some good, some not as good. She was not the regal Amazonian woman of the comics, but maybe that was difficult to achieve...or maybe they just didn't want that image...maybe the scriptwriters didn't see her that way when they wrote the story, maybe they thought it was something people would not relate to. I've watched both X-movies dozens of times and although Storm is often under-utilised, she doesn't seem as bad as people often say, and neither is Halle in that role. The characterisation was a bit 'off', and we hope for a better portrayal in X3, but it's always going to be hard to service so many characters properly.

2) Halle's portrayal of a black superhero in Catwoman didn't work, everyone knows this. I had no problem with their being another Catwoman who was black, but they should somehow have linked it much more strongly to the source material. Patience Phillips should have been connected somehow to Selina Kyle..somehow the mantle of Catwoman was passed from one to another. The movie itself has some good moments (the opening sequence flashing back through the history of cat worship and cat folklore stands out, some of the fight sequences) and some crap moments (Patience rolling catnip over her face, Patience making a big thing out of having her hair done).

3) Storm is a difficult character. Although black, she has white hair and blue eyes, she is not a typical African-American and she is not a neck-rolling, finger-snapping ghetto sista type. This makes her difficult to aim at a specific audience. The ghetto/rap culture probably don't relate to her, and most white cultures wouldn't relate to her. They've often not known how to write the character (in comics or movies) and i sometimes wonder if that's why she became this aloof vision of serenity - it was an excuse that meant they didn't have to bother giving her depth.

4) Female superhero movies are difficult --- the genre is very male. Wonder Woman may work because of the iconic status provided largely by Lynda Carter. However, Angelina Jolie's Tomb Raider has been successful as a movie female superhero (not of comicbook origin) - lots of action, some tongue-in-cheek parts (Asked 'Are we going to save the world again?', Lara answers: 'Absolutely!), some brilliant mystical/supernatural storylines. Elektra failed with its poor characterisation and boring, non-epic storyline.

5) I'm not sure of a Storm solo movie... it could work, it could be a disaster, people may be wary after Catwoman. Linking it in with Black Panther and his African underground super-city could be a very good move. Setting it entirely in Africa wouldn't work, making it an entirely black movie probably wouldn't work. Focusing only on Storm might not work. Should we see Halle again? Could she pull it off? X3 will give us more clues about how the profile of Storm has been raised. I'd love to see a movie in which Storm is linked in with T'Challa and possibly Forge (he could be the one behind Black Panther's hi-tech city).

I'll add/clarify thoughts later after a good night's sleep!

 

[OutcryX]

Good arguments here, great thread.

Agreed

I'm not sure of a Storm solo movie... it could work, it could be a disaster, people may be wary after Catwoman. Linking it in with Black Panther and his African underground super-city could be a very good move. Setting it entirely in Africa wouldn't work, making it an entirely black movie probably wouldn't work. Focusing only on Storm might not work. Should we see Halle again? Could she pull it off? X3 will give us more clues about how the profile of Storm has been raised. I'd love to see a movie in which Storm is linked in with T'Challa and possibly Forge (he could be the one behind Black Panther's hi-tech city).

I'll add/clarify thoughts later after a good night's sleep!

Setting it in Africa WOULD work. Especially if it will be in T'Challa's advanced city. Taking the characters out of their settings doesnt work. Didn't for Punisher at least. Elektra either. An all black cast would NOT work for it to have broad appeal. There would have to be other ethnicities..particularly WHITE people in order to get large amounts of butt in seats. That and Halle could pull off a solo Storm movie....i wouldnt want it to happen though. She was good...for the X-men films, but let an actress that is more similar in appearance to Storm be the one who is burned into our retenas and consciousness as the definitive image of Storm in the hollywood history. That and I kinda like Storm with Black Panther...she shouldnt have to give up being an X-man to be with him tho. Then again i also like her with Forge....but i kinda like him with Mystique...so confusing!

 

[Chris Wallace]

Agreed overall. But there doesn't HAVE to be an all-black cast. There's White Wolf. There's Klaw. There's Everett Ross. All of them have a place in the story. Bringing BP to NY just makes him another Batman. Keep him in his element. And Arach Knight-all your posts about including Storm & including the Avengers (neither of which can be done) suggest that he hasn't the appeal to cut it on his own. I do not agree. Didn't his first MK comic do well? Didn't the first ish of the current series practically FLY off the shelves? There is a market; you just have to find a way to tap into it.

 

[Arach Knight]

1)I didn't say the movie would have to involve the other Avengers. I simply said that Black Panther should return to NYC if he is going to be in a movie where it is just him and Storm. It would be dumb if he arbitrarily came back...so having him return because of the Avengers, just makes sense.

2) Black Panther isn't strong enough on his own. His comic book sales are terrible and have been terrible from the start. His book couldn't even muster 70k initially. It has been on a decline since issue 1.

Feb 05 Black Panther #1 - 69,930
Mar 05 Black Panther #2 - 47,533 ( -32.0%)
Apr 05 Black Panther #3 - 44,925 ( -5.5%)
May 05 Black Panther #4 - 40,804 ( -9.2%)
Jun 05 Black Panther #5 - 37,401 ( -8.1%)
Jul 05 Black Panther #6 - 35,256 ( -5.7%)
6 mnth ( n/a )
1 year ( n/a )
2 year (+123.5%)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe/msg/b92ae264cb569862?hl=en

I mean....it could be doing worst...but it is number 58 out of 100. So it isn't like the book is that popular. It isn't even in the top 30. It can't be more obvious that Black Panther isn't a very viable book...and would be an even less viable movie, if they keep T'Challa in Africa. I didn't see people lining up to see Hotel Rwanda...so I wouldn't expect T'Challa to be any more of a winner with the crowd.