Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[deemar325]

o i agree, which is why i get tired of people thinking the majority is that way... you'd be surprised at how many "Strait" actors in hollywood are really gay... and how many "strait" gay guys there are... its just not fun to be lumped into a group full of "fems" when everyone thinks thats what being gay is because that group stands out the most.. because they demand attention... and thats what the media likes to show because its "comical"

I hear ol' Johnny travolta is a 'Pitch Hitter'.

I get your annoyance on the stereotype of the 'Queen' but sometimes you can use a stereotype to your advantage. Me, I'll cop to the fact I'll play up the scary big black guy thing too get ahead of a line at the movies or if I'm not in the mood to be bothered with co-workers, I'll beef up the angry blackman bit to be left alone to my thoughts.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I hear ol' Johnny travolta is a 'Pitch Hitter'.

I get your annoyance on the stereotype of the 'Queen' but sometimes you can use a stereotype to your advantage. Me, I'll cop to the fact I'll play up the scary big black guy thing too get ahead of a line at the movies or if I'm not in the mood to be bothered with co-workers, I'll beef up the angry blackman bit to be left alone to my thoughts.

lol you mean like if i don't wanna carry something heavy or do something that just so happens to be "manly" i should use being gay as a cop out? lol see.. with being black it usually makes you "scary" or tougher... with stereotypes.. with gays.. kinda makes us weaker

 

[Nokio]

My sentiments exactly. It....was disgusting.

First Doom made some comment that black people are superior physical specimens which compensates for their lack of intellect. He then went on to make "Tonto" jokes about T'Challa and said that the only reason the King had any level of smarts was due to a probable "low-grade" mutant strain.

It was offensive--and not just because I'm a man of color. It was offensive because it was stupid...it was wack for the sheer sake of being wack. It read as if Hudlin was deliberately trying to sew in racial conflict in any way he could...even if it meant taking Doom out of character.

I truly despise Hudlin's writing. Both Storm and T'Challa are so out of character, that i'm surprised that Hudlin is still writing BP or more to the point that Marvel is still letting him write it. This man has no writing skills in my opinion and he doesn't even set up complex stories. He has declassed BP and Storm. Hudlin has played into every cliche that the entertainment industry does on black people. These characters are not the knuckle headedness that goes on over at BET, which very sadly Hudlin has a hand in shaping.

As a black man I don't get what is going on in this man's head. His work as well as others are the reason I stopped watching BET, and now sadly, and as much as i want to support a comic featuring a person of color i no longer will support BP. Both him and Storm are iconic and classy characters and Hudlin in his short run has undone all the backstory that other writers have set up. Well maybe that's a bit over the top, but I DO NOT LIKE THIS MAN'S INVOLVEMENT OVER AT AARVEL. Please dear god no more Luke Cage /50 Cent guest appearences.

 

[Nokio]

I don't know what both marvel and Hudlin were thinking with that Doom debacle.Doom a racist? I've always thought of Doom as being above the pettiness of racism considering his intelligence. What was Marvel thinking. A black writer does not equal the sole authority on black characters. There are talented black writers out there that can do BP justice if marvel for some strange reason has to put a black writer on BP.

 

[Fried Gold]

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

you don't think its a bit of a stereo typical thing to see a cowboy named "rawhide kid" and think... "what a gay name" and then go and make the guy gay? not only gay.. but a cover thats extremely flamboyant?

Actually, no. No I don't. Now, if they had made a character named "Dick Gayson" or "Ursa Major" gay...then yeah, I could see it. But Rawhide Kid? Meh. I think Rawhide Kid is a wack name--gay or Str8 actually.

The gay people I know are seriously limp wristed. You might find the occassional 'tough guy' homosexual, but usually they're pretty sissyfied.

Really? That's interesting because as a bodybuilder in New York I know/have met a lot of men in the life--especially at the gym where I train. And you know what? The most cut-up, masculine cats that frequent our joint are gay.

The same can be said for many of the Pro-bodybuilders in the IFBB circuit. Seeeeriously, some of the biggest, "straight-acting" cats (you know--the ones that have the blonde bimbo babes draping themselves all over them on the Flex Magazine covers ) are tricking for men of every shape, age and profession. No limp wrists, lisps, or finger-snapping there...they're totally manned-up. Yet, later you find out through the grape vine that they get down on the low...and off the "gaydar". The difference? They're discreet with it and choose to conduct themselves as men first and foremost--at all times.

Ironically, the media doesn't play that version of gay male life up...at all. I guess it's not sensational enough. Now, don't get me wrong--I do see plenty of these....

...skipping around the burroughs too. But over the years, I've learned that it's the cats dipped in thuggery--the ones holding up the walls nodding their heads saying "sup"--that are the real "queens"...not necessarily the "fembots."

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I truly despise Hudlin's writing. Both Storm and T'Challa are so out of character, that i'm surprised that Hudlin is still writing BP or more to the point that Marvel is still letting him write it. This man has no writing skills in my opinion and he doesn't even set up complex stories. He has declassed BP and Storm. Hudlin has played into every cliche that the entertainment industry does on black people. These characters are not the knuckle headedness that goes on over at BET, which very sadly Hudlin has a hand in shaping.

As a black man I don't get what is going on in this man's head. His work as well as others are the reason I stopped watching BET, and now sadly, and as much as i want to support a comic featuring a person of color i no longer will support BP. Both him and Storm are iconic and classy characters and Hudlin in his short run has undone all the backstory that other writers have set up. Well maybe that's a bit over the top, but I DO NOT LIKE THIS MAN'S INVOLVEMENT OVER AT AARVEL. Please dear god no more Luke Cage /50 Cent guest appearences.

Truer words have never been spoken my friend.

His writing insults me--not only as a fan--but also as an African American male. You would think he'd use this privelege of writing to open new doors of creativity...to blaze new trails...and take a B-list character like the Panther to new levels of sophistication. But instead of enlightening us with something groundbreaking--or at the very least entertaining--he's chosen to plod through tired-ass, played-out black stereotypes that do nothing but alienate readers of other cultures. And most revolting of all is the fact that there are several examples in his writing where he is deliberately spitting sly insults at comic readers who don't care for his vibe. Way to go Mr. Professional.

The whole intention of marrying the Black Panther to Storm was to expand the former's fanbase. Through his arrogance, haughtiness, literary incompetence and lack of canon knowledge Hudlin has wasted this opportunity. As a result, Storm, T'Challa, Doom, and anyone else he gets his grimy hands on...is being tarnished.

I've read all Hudlin's BP stuff. Even bought some of it for a while. And I'm all for black writers getting chances to write high profile monthly titles. But can we please get some with a modicum of--oh, I dunno--TALENT? Yeah.

 

[Anubis]

It hasn't been that bad.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

It hasn't been that bad.

It hasn't been that good.























And as far as protecting the identities of the characters under his charge...it certainly has been that bad--at least in my humble opinion. Then again, I've only been reading these characters for 20-plus years, so what the hell do I know?

 

[Anubis]

The only problem I had with Hudlin's BP was the first arc when he basically rebooted his origin and changed Klaw into, well it for damn sure aint Klaw anymore. Other than that, it's been pretty entertaining at best, and meh at worst. Enjoyed the House of M tie in. Really dug the arc where he hung out with Cage, the wedding was boring. (Though I did enjoy the batchlor party issue.) Didn't really give a s**t about the Doom flub, not that I think it really was a flub. I think Doom was just trying to push his buttons. Though I would have perfured if they were on good terms. They always seemed rather Civil with one another in the past. He did screw up, but like I said, I wasn't too broken up about it.

Current arc has been pretty good, though the art is crap.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

The only problem I had with Hudlin's BP was the first arc when he basically rebooted his origin and changed Klaw into, well it for damn sure aint Klaw anymore. Other than that, it's been pretty entertaining at best, and meh at worst. Enjoyed the House of M tie in. Really dug the arc where he hung out with Cage, the wedding was boring. (Though I did enjoy the batchlor party issue.) Didn't really give a s**t about the Doom flub, not that I think it really was a flub. I think Doom was just trying to push his buttons. Though I would have perfured if they were on good terms. They always seemed rather Civil with one another in the past. He did screw up, but like I said, I wasn't too broken up about it.

Current arc has been pretty good, though the art is crap.

Okay, well I can appreciate your thoughts. I too enjoyed the House Of M title--and his total ownage of Sabertooth and Magneto...but that's when things started going south for me. What's your opinion of Storm's addition to the book?

 

[Anubis]

I'm cool with it. So far it's been handled margenally well I suppose. She's still pretty independent, and trying to come to terms with her new status as a world leader, and BP's still being BP. Or at least Hudlin's BP.

The thing is, sure, it could be better, and if they replaced Hudlin, I wouldn't cry about it. But it really hasn't been as bad as some people have made it out to be. It's been avarage for the most part. Good enough for me not to drop the book at least.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm cool with it. So far it's been handled margenally well I suppose. She's still pretty independent, and trying to come to terms with her new status as a world leader, and BP's still being BP. Or at least Hudlin's BP.

The thing is, sure, it could be better, and if they replaced Hudlin, I wouldn't cry about it. But it really hasn't been as bad as some people have made it out to be. It's been avarage for the most part. Good enough for me not to drop the book at least.

Meh...I have to dissagree bro. I don't even recognize Storm under this guy's care. And it's interesting because she's only gotten sappily out of character since she married T'Challa. When he was gunning for her affection she still managed to come across as a Goddess-like leader. But as soon as she agreed to court him, she transformed into silly putty. Now, she's his Tonto...totally in the background, underused and underwhelmed so as to play up his significance. Her eyes don't even go white when she calls on her powers. LOL

From what I've read, Hudlin doesn't seem to be interested in developing T'Challa and Ororo as a power couple a la Susan & Reed or Jean & Scott--where folks are equals. He's more concerned with manipping all of her statements and actions to display how dominant T'Challa is. I know it's his book but Hudlin truly doesn't get what a powerful character Storm can be. He's underusing her bigtime and as a result, Storm has become a shell...no substance at all...just this giggly, lovestruck naivete--hardly the champion who led the X-Men for decades.

And don't even get me started on the continuity issues...

 

[Anubis]

Are we reading the same book? Because I haven't seen anything like that happen. Storm hasn't been in any way shape or form his "Tonto". Of course, i've never been all that huge of a Storm fan, so I guess the people who follow her more would have a better vantage point. Or maybe that's the problem. You're trying to apply her role as a leader of the X-Men to what she's doing now, which is really on a much grander scale. Has she ever really been in a position like she is now? Being a world leader? This isn't the X-Men, this is a major world power. The way I figure, she's gonna need time to adjust to this new role. And so far, they've been showing it. Just look at her recent tiff with Stark, and now making the decision of possibly registering. This not only goes against what BP wants, but her fellow X-Men as well. She's making decisions for the good of her people now. (or adopted people or whatever.)

As far as her eyes not going white, that's just the artists interpritation. Unless i've missed some sorta memo where they say she can't have her eyes go white all of a sudden. Seems kinda petty to me.

 

[Inhuman63]

This has really piqued my interest to the point that I will have to pick up a BP issue to see what is going on. The Black Panther, to me, was such an exciting character, especially since he was the first African character to grace the pages of the FF and most regally at that. He was finally a character that looked like me and that really meant something. Now to read all the things that is going on with the character, it has left me a little distressed. And to top it off, to hear about Doom being made out to be racist. That is a joke in itself, so out of character for the man. And to read that Storm's character is being wasted also...such a shame. Don't know who this guy is that is writing BP but if he has anything to do with BET then I can see how he goes for the lowest common denominator. Personally, I have not looked at the main BET channel in years, and if I do check out any of the affiliates, it usually is BETJ.

BTW, as far the other convo is concerned, living in NY and doing some theatre I still don't know that many limp wrist gay's. Most of the people that I know are just your average people who happen to prefer the same sex.

Back on topic though, once I pick up an issue of BP, I will hopefully be able to participate in this conversation. Such thought provoking stuff.

 

[Anubis]

With BP and Storm possibly taking over for Sue and Reed in Fantastic Four, you may be able to get a better interpritation of the couple from a more compitent writer in McDuffie.

 

[HandOfFate]

The thing is, sure, it could be better, and if they replaced Hudlin, I wouldn't cry about it. But it really hasn't been as bad as some people have made it out to be. It's been avarage for the most part. Good enough for me not to drop the book at least.

I agree, it's not great but its good enough to keep me coming back for more ever month.

I've been reading the X-Men for almost 20 years now and I really don't see this big change in Storm that some complain about. While I agree that Hudlin doesn't fully understand her, I think if we give him time, he'll make some great improvements.

Now if somebody could find a decent artist for the book.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Are we reading the same book? Because I haven't seen anything like that happen. Storm hasn't been in any way shape or form his "Tonto".

Oh? You believe she's being portrayed as his equal? Sorry, but I'm not. I'm seeing this:

"Big Pharoah & His Knee-High Queen." ​

Storm's character has been watered down...diminished. It's not just that she's taken a back seat to him. She's just so damn sappy around him. Even when she was romantically involved with Forge she was never this...well, weak. I mean, it is good to see a vulnerable side of her...but I don't believe the compromise has been equally shown in T'Challa. Do you?

One of my biggest issues surrounds their microwaved marriage. No time was spent developing their relationship. Just a retcon. Even you admitted that the whole process was boring. And I agree...it was empty because there was no history behind it, no substance. Considering how popular Storm is, it could've been HUGE...had the concept been given some time to incubate longer.

Perhaps if we had been given a year to see this bond between them grow I could more readily believe her newfound "freeness" around him. But to go from 30 years of her being so stoic and emotionally guarded to this euphoric "School-girl"-like behavior in all of like 2 issues...it just felt wrong.

For example: she's been chastised often by him for getting "out of line". Now, that in itself is not my biggest gripe--I expect T'Challa's arrogance to move him that direction (that's what makes him great), but it's her "doting" "What's wrong Beloved?" reactions that are sooooooooo out of character. Storm is not one that needs to be told that "conflicts cannot be resolved with a kiss"--she knows that. She's extremely intelligent--especially when it comes to tech. Yet, she asks him the most dumbass of questions about things like jets, etc. Why? To play up T'Challa's character.

It's not balanced to me, Anubis.

Of course, i've never been all that huge of a Storm fan, so I guess the people who follow her more would have a better vantage point.

Actually, I've been collecting BP since Priest had the run. And the X-Men? Well, since 1981. So I knew both characters rather thoroughly before this marriage. And the things they do and say now are just off-target ("You've got me straight trippin' boo?" When did the King Of Wakanda get hood!? ) I agree with you: Storm is a unique role now--and I appreciate the concept. But I disagree that it's being actioned off well.

As far as her eyes not going white, that's just the artists interpritation. Unless i've missed some sorta memo where they say she can't have her eyes go white all of a sudden. Seems kinda petty to me.

Storm's eyes have been that way since she was created man. It's her iconic trademark. So now she's married and they've stopped working? If you're going to win new readers over, why not keep the things they know consistent?

Rumor: I read somewhere here (or it might have been Newsrama) that he told artists to stop drawing her that way because it makes her seem too powerful and godly--a level that a human like T'Challa can't attain. Not sure how true that is because if I recall, her eyes did whiten during mutant manifestations early on in Hudlin's run. I agree it's a minor detail, but it's a part of her characterization...and if it's been taken out to downplay her "power", then I think it's wrong.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

This has really piqued my interest to the point that I will have to pick up a BP issue to see what is going on. The Black Panther, to me, was such an exciting character, especially since he was the first African character to grace the pages of the FF and most regally at that. He was finally a character that looked like me and that really meant something. Now to read all the things that is going on with the character, it has left me a little distressed. And to top it off, to hear about Doom being made out to be racist. That is a joke in itself, so out of character for the man. And to read that Storm's character is being wasted also...such a shame. Don't know who this guy is that is writing BP but if he has anything to do with BET then I can see how he goes for the lowest common denominator. Personally, I have not looked at the main BET channel in years, and if I do check out any of the affiliates, it usually is BETJ.

Well, don't let my "review" overly influence you. You may very well love it. I've been following this since its inception. And to be fair, I will admit that his stuff has gotten slightly better in recent issues. But for me, 80% of it has been very flawed work. And it started out great...that's why I (and many others) have been so put off with it.

Also, if Hudlin wasn't so arrogant I'd be a bit more forgiving. As HandOfFate mentioned, it's only fair that we give him a chance. But from the venom I've read from him directed at readers, he doesn't give a damn what they think. This is a one-man show as far as he's concerned--the fanbase be damned. And a lot of people--especially X-Men fans--have been burned by his indifference. We care about these characters...he does not. For him, it's just another commercial venture...and his comments reflect that.

BTW, as far the other convo is concerned, living in NY and doing some theatre I still don't know that many limp wrist gay's. Most of the people that I know are just your average people who happen to prefer the same sex.

Same here.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

While I agree that Hudlin doesn't fully understand her, I think if we give him time, he'll make some great improvements.

To be honest with you? I don't think Reggie wants to understand her. If he did, he'd be a helluva lot more receptive to the fans concerns. I mean, seriously man, soooooo many fans have written in trying to help him understand. I'm continuously shocked by his haughty, condescending replies though...which ultimately I think has pissed them off.

You can't see where you're going if you don't know where you (or your characters) have been.

Now if somebody could find a decent artist for the book.

Agreed. Wassup with that? The art was fine all the way through the earlier arcs and the wedding. But now? Blech.

 

[Anubis]

Oh? You believe she's being portrayed as his equal? Sorry, but I'm not. I'm seeing this:

"Big Pharoah & His Knee-High Queen." ​

Storm's character has been watered down...diminished. It's not just that she's taken a back seat to him. She's just so damn sappy around him. Even when she was romantically involved with Forge she was never this...well, weak. I mean, it is good to see a vulnerable side of her...but I don't believe the compromise has been equally shown in T'Challa. Do you?


One of my biggest issues surrounds their microwaved marriage. No time was spent developing their relationship. Just a retcon. Even you admitted that the whole process was boring. And I agree...it was empty because there was no history behind it, no substance. Considering how popular Storm is, it could've been HUGE...had the concept been given some time to incubate longer.

Perhaps if we had been given a year to see this bond between them grow I could more readily believe her newfound "freeness" around him. But to go from 30 years of her being so stoic and emotionally guarded to this euphoric "School-girl"-like behavior in all of like 2 issues...it just felt wrong.

For example: she's been chastised often by him for getting "out of line". Now, that in itself is not my biggest gripe--I expect T'Challa's arrogance to move him that direction (that's what makes him great), but it's her "doting" "What's wrong Beloved?" reactions that are sooooooooo out of character. Storm is not one that needs to be told that "conflicts cannot be resolved with a kiss"--she knows that. She's extremely intelligent--especially when it comes to tech. Yet, she asks him the most dumbass of questions about things like jets, etc. Why? To play up T'Challa's character.

It's not balanced to me, Anubis.

Sure she's intelligent, but I mean, think about her position here. She's never really been in this kinda role before. we're talking about having to play international peace maker, for a nation that isn't even her own. I chalk it up to simply taking time to learn her place in the monarcy. Aparently she weilds more power than she relizes. At the momment, she's just gonna have to defur to the guy that's been running s**t for the last fifteen years. At least for now. That could change, and it will by all indications of upcoming events.



Actually, I've been collecting BP since Priest had the run. And the X-Men? Well, since 1981. So I knew both characters rather thoroughly before this marriage. And the things they do and say now are just off-target ("You've got me straight trippin' boo?" When did the King Of Wakanda get hood!? ) I agree with you: Storm is a unique role now--and I appreciate the concept. But I disagree that it's being actioned off well.

I'm willing to let it slide because it was an alternate universe version of the character.



Storm's eyes have been that way since she was created man. It's her iconic trademark. So now she's married and they've stopped working? If you're going to win new readers over, why not keep the things they know consistent?

Rumor: I read somewhere here (or it might have been Newsrama) that he told artists to stop drawing her that way because it makes her seem too powerful and godly--a level that a human like T'Challa can't attain. Not sure how true that is because if I recall, her eyes did whiten during mutant manifestations early on in Hudlin's run. I agree it's a minor detail, but it's a part of her characterization...and if it's been taken out to downplay her "power", then I think it's wrong.

Still seems petty to me. And come on, it's an internet rumor. I've also heard a rumor that that guy in that R. Kelly kiddie porn video was really Al Sharpton in disguise. Doesn't make it true.

 

[highguard]

To be honest with you? I don't think Reggie wants to understand her. If he did, he'd be a helluva lot more receptive to the fans concerns. I mean, seriously man, soooooo many fans have written in trying to help him understand. I'm continuously shocked by his haughty, condescending replies though...which ultimately I think has pissed them off.

You can't see where you're going if you don't know where you (or your characters) have been.




Agreed. Wassup with that? The art was fine all the way through the earlier arcs and the wedding. But now? Blech.

Well if Hudlin is that way with the fans maybe he is that way with the hired help. I thought Romita jr ended his run kind of quickly, .. I dunno.

Also he may be having a hard time attracting top talent to the book if he is not going to be collaborative.

It is sad to hear that he has chosen to cast BP as hood, I think that works for Luke Cage cause the hood is part of our society but it is a stereotype that does not apply to all black people, and a lot of the elements of hood life are not to be glamorized but overcome.

The culture of BET is attractive to a lot of people, black and white because they think it is reality and exciting, the thug life.

There is a lot of fear out there among Black Men and Women that they are percieved as being ashamed of their roots and as a result they feel pressured to "keep it real".

Who can forget the charge against Alan Iverson when he tried to release his rap album.

Someone said what does a millionaire B baller know about kicking it in the streets. So a lot of rappers love to show their bullet wounds and prison records.

The truth is that all the lables and studios feel that this is what the public wants. It's a change of pace from the dreariness of our lives they think. Seeing how it is to live on the streets while bullets fly by.

Its as close as to being in a real life Miami Vice as we can be they reason, so the music, the drugs, the guns, the girls this is what they push cause they think that it is what we want.

The truth is sales will dictate whether that is what continues to be pushed.

Its the law of demand and supply.

As 50 cent said I am going to get rich or die trying.

As long as that is all it's about, "getting paid" and the peddlers get paid that is what we are going to get.

But BP saying your tripping boo hahahahhahhahahah.

Maybe BP is trying to be real too, lol, man the editors clearly don't care anymore, it is never ending.

I am telling you the culture at Marvel has clearly shifted tremendously towards peddling the lowest common denominator.

Its MTV/BET in the "House....... of Ideas"

 

[deemar325]

Bump.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Actually, no. No I don't. Now, if they had made a character named "Dick Gayson" or "Ursa Major" gay...then yeah, I could see it. But Rawhide Kid? Meh. I think Rawhide Kid is a wack name--gay or Str8 actually.

i dont see how ursa major sounds gay... Dick Gayson would be about as forward as you could get next to "Uranus man" but raw hide def sounds like he loves to bare back, i don't think one gay guy would even not consider that a gay sounding name

Really? That's interesting because as a bodybuilder in New York I know/have met a lot of men in the life--especially at the gym where I train. And you know what? The most cut-up, masculine cats that frequent our joint are gay.

The same can be said for many of the Pro-bodybuilders in the IFBB circuit. Seeeeriously, some of the biggest, "straight-acting" cats (you know--the ones that have the blonde bimbo babes draping themselves all over them on the Flex Magazine covers ) are tricking for men of every shape, age and profession. No limp wrists, lisps, or finger-snapping there...they're totally manned-up. Yet, later you find out through the grape vine that they get down on the low...and off the "gaydar". The difference? They're discreet with it and choose to conduct themselves as men first and foremost--at all times.

Ironically, the media doesn't play that version of gay male life up...at all. I guess it's not sensational enough. Now, don't get me wrong--I do see plenty of these....

...skipping around the burroughs too. But over the years, I've learned that it's the cats dipped in thuggery--the ones holding up the walls nodding their heads saying "sup"--that are the real "queens"...not necessarily the "fembots."

agrees, great post! thank you

 

[spideyboy_1111]

i'd say storm was watered down at first... but i think thats simply because she hasn't been fitting in well with her new status quo and shes just trying to adjust.. i can yell you though i've notices a huge difference since civil war has started... she does what she wants more often now... and shes back to kicking some ass.. and independance... i think whats hardest for us to vision is the fact that storm is now married... and with marriage, like it or not.. you cant be 100% independant... and i think when we see any sign of dependancy on her its hard to understand. But again, over all.. i think her portrayal during civil war has been on par...