Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[The Storm]

There are light skinned and dark skinned people in Egypt. Surely if someone was from there they would be black.

I remember I used to go on a Queen of the Damned site and fans of Anna Rice's book were complaining that Aaliyah was too dark to play Akasha. In the book despite being Egyptian she was described as being pale, but a white Egyptian! In the end most people would agree for those who haven't read the book, Aaliyah was the perfect choice for an Egyptian Queen.

 

[Minisinoo]

There are light skinned and dark skinned people in Egypt. Surely if someone was from there they would be black.

Well, it depends on when you're talking about -- as is often the case in history.

Egypt has been populated by a wide variety of peoples. We've had the native Coptic population, we've had folks up from the south (Kush/Meroe/Nubia), we've had large populations of both Greeks and Jews, particularly in the delta area, etc.

In short, you have to define WHERE and WHEN and even WHO when you talk about people in ancient Egypt.

But I also want to point out that there is a LOT more variation in skin tone ALL throughout the Mediterranean that does not reflect ethnic divisions in the U.S. today. You simply can't compare 'racial' issues in modern America (or even modern Europe) to that of the Mediterranean in antiquity. Apples and oranges, folks.

 

[The Storm]

When I visited Egypt I didn't see any caucasian (sp?) people apart from tourists. But I understand in ancient times when countries invaded each other there was a mix of races. For example the Nubians despite being dark skinned have features similar to that of a caucasian. My assumption was that Egypt being in Africa that people would be black but again taking in the invasions.

Now I'm going on history programmes and what my guide told when I was out there. But since your a historian you'll know more than both of my sources so just take my post as simple persons idea.

 

[OutcryX]

Just wondering why this thread just died suddenly...and it was doing so well too...

 

[Arach Knight]

Well, it depends on when you're talking about -- as is often the case in history.

Egypt has been populated by a wide variety of peoples. We've had the native Coptic population, we've had folks up from the south (Kush/Meroe/Nubia), we've had large populations of both Greeks and Jews, particularly in the delta area, etc.

In short, you have to define WHERE and WHEN and even WHO when you talk about people in ancient Egypt.

You simply can't compare 'racial' issues in modern America (or even modern Europe) to that of the Mediterranean in antiquity. Apples and oranges, folks.

Comparing Jews living in Egypt, to being Egyptian is the only apples and oranges circumstance. You are talking about denizens of Egypt, rather than natives of Egypt. Being a denizen isn't the same as belonging to an ethnic group. You are correct that you can't use modern Western ideas on race. But sadly, you still do. You are comparing nationalism with ethnicity. In some cases, national identity is not racial. In some instances, cultural identity is not racial. But in most cases, your ethnicity, nation and culture are one in the same. I am a black man. Both of my parents could have lived in Japan for five years and had me there. That however wouldn't make me Japanese. On the other hand, if a Mexican couple migrated from Mexico and had a baby here, that child would be American. In the case of Egypt, being Egyptian isn't like beign American. Being Egyptian is both a national, cultural and ethnic association. Further more, Jews were the slaves of Egyptians, as historically shown in the Bible. They were denizens of Egypt, not natives. Your perspective is plausible but ultimately flawed in delivery. You might as well call the Moores, spanish because they lived in Spain for hundreds of years (which the Moores are black if anybody didn't know).

 

[spider-jide]

Comparing Jews living in Egypt, to being Egyptian is the only apples and oranges circumstance. You are talking about denizens of Egypt, rather than natives of Egypt. Being a denizen isn't the same as belonging to an ethnic group. You are correct that you can't use modern Western ideas on race. But sadly, you still do. You are comparing nationalism with ethnicity. In some cases, national identity is not racial. In some instances, cultural identity is not racial. But in most cases, your ethnicity, nation and culture are one in the same. I am a black man. Both of my parents could have lived in Japan for five years and had me there. That however wouldn't make me Japanese. On the other hand, if a Mexican couple migrated from Mexico and had a baby here, that child would be American. In the case of Egypt, being Egyptian isn't like beign American. Being Egyptian is both a national, cultural and ethnic association. Further more, Jews were the slaves of Egyptians, as historically shown in the Bible. They were denizens of Egypt, not natives. Your perspective is plausible but ultimately flawed in delivery. You might as well call the Moores, spanish because they lived in Spain for hundreds of years (which the Moores are black if anybody didn't know).

Good points

 

[comic book girl]

When talking about egyptians I think I know how it went. The first Egyptians were black but then Greeks came and started mating with them.

 

[comic book girl]

To add to that point yes I do believe Cleopatra was of Greek descent but she was also black. Nefitiri, Nefititi, and Tut however have more of the African features.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

To add to that point yes I do believe Cleopatra was of Greek descent but she was also black. Nefitiri, Nefititi, and Tut however have more of the African features.

Isn't Nefertiti on Halle's list of upcoming films?

 

[The Storm]

I read that somewhere and I'm sure that Jessica Alba was a possibility for a Cleopatra film.

 

[comic book girl]

Isn't Nefertiti on Halle's list of upcoming films?

Probably. Thanks for the correct spelling.

 

[comic book girl]

Jessica Alba would not be a bad choice but she would need to go a shade darker.Like Eva Mendes.

 

[OutcryX]

Jessica Alba would not be a bad choice but she would need to go a shade darker.Like Eva Mendes.

Alba would not be a bad choice to play whom exactly? Nefertiti? I must disagree with you.

 

[The Storm]

Not Nefertiti, Cleopatra. I've always thought that Iman would be perfect for Nefertiti. OK so shes not an actress but she is Nefertiti!!!

 

[OutcryX]

Not Nefertiti, Cleopatra. I've always thought that Iman would be perfect for Nefertiti. OK so shes not an actress but she is Nefertiti!!!

Ahh ok...but still...Cleopatra is black right? of fair skin....shouldn't they get her race correct for once in the films?

 

[The Storm]

To add to that point yes I do believe Cleopatra was of Greek descent but she was also black. Nefitiri, Nefititi, and Tut however have more of the African features.

Was posted earlier tonight.

 

[Arach Knight]

We shouldn't let this thread stray so far from the original point. I simply brought up Apocalypse because he is one of the few black super villains in comic books today. I think the point has been made that Egyptians are black. So we should move on from there and return to the main discussion. Not that this hasn't been enlightening...

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

^^^ Agreed....

...but before we get back on topic, let me slide this in there: No Jessica Alba for Cleo.

At all.

 

[OutcryX]

^^^ Agreed....

...but before we get back on topic, let me slide this in there: No Jessica Alba for Cleo.

At all.

I concure as well....Even tho Ms. Alba es muy caliente!!! I love a spanish lady!

 

[Arach Knight]

So how does everybody feel about Ben Reilly being made into an African American in the Ultimate universe? I think that was a cool way to add him to the continuity and even involve him in the "clone" saga, without having to make things so messy.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

So how does everybody feel about Ben Reilly being made into an African American in the Ultimate universe? I think that was a cool way to add him to the continuity and even involve him in the "clone" saga, without having to make things so messy.

Actually I haven't seen it yet. Got any pics?

 

[Arach Knight]

Sadly I don't. He was simply a lab technician that helped Kurt Conners to accidentally create Carnage. I just found it interesting that they chose to make him an African American. On a more interesting note though, I just got through reading House of M Prelude TPB. The story revolves around the invasion of Zanzibar land, which is a small island nation off the coast of Africa. The president of the country is actually a super hero named Askari The Spear. I don't know much about his powers, but he is fairly strong and can produce energy bolts. I find this characterization to be refreshing, because not only is this character a black super hero, they are also a world leader. It is almost like having a second Black Panther around.

 

[SuperVenom]

Too much afrocentricity. We should just say, "They are egyptian" and leave it at that. In the Western mind, we have to fit people into certain groups, "Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid" because that's the way we were raised, but it is completley wrong.

People have their own lives and cultures, and we best leave it that way. Some may look black, but genetically, they are not. Melanesians and Aborigines looks black, but genetically, they are closer to asians than africans. Just leave it as it is.

Also, as many said, there are a lot of diversities that move in to a certain location, which changes the people. In a lot of the Arab countries, there are South Asians there that do menial jobs, therefore this might be the reason that a lot of them seem dark to you, such as the Bengalis. Some arabs I have seen look white. A lot of people from Lebanon that I have seen fit that description. Also a lot of the people labeled as "Terrorists" underneath the beard and such, can pass for a white person. Ever see the American Taliban?


Back on topic, John Stewart = best Black Knight

 

[comic book girl]

Was posted earlier tonight.

Just wanted to agree.

 

[Arach Knight]

Nobody was really mentioning race in relationship to ethnic cliches. At least not thus far. And I believe the issue of Egypt, is more related to the fact that the entire land mass is contiguoous. The native inhabitants of most every country on the continent, are of Black-African descent. Of course the reflection of that today has changed a great deal. Now there are "Afrikaans" who live in South Africa. They are the white Dutch that introduced themselves to the land in the late 19th century. But they are obviously not black. Also, there is a difference of dark skin and sometimes even region, and ethnicity. Nobody thinks of Aboriginals as being ethnically African in descent. However a lot of Brazillians that are black, are African in descent. A Filipino person is often viewed as being asian, even though they are actually part of the Maylay race and not the asian race. In some cases, region and skin color are not ethnic indicators. But in others they can be. I think that is what everybody was getting at as far as Apocalypse being black, and more specifically, Egyptians being black.