Max: The Artist Formerly Known as HBO Max

[Lily Adler]

I watched the Snyder cut. While not worse than BVS like I thought it would be, which is good objectively, bad in an entertaining way... this movie was a boring slog. Like at least BVS is fascinating in a bad way, but this is just... boring. It doesn't help things are so disconnected in that first half. I was hoping for BVS madness that made my eyeballs pop out of my head.

There's some here and there

Spoiler

when Wonder Woman and Aquaman brutally kill Steppenwolf and Batman uses a big gun and Cyborg says, "**** the world" and Batman tells the Joker he will "****ing kill him."

But... it's four ****ing hours. I don't know how many times I checked the time code. The four hours really takes away the urgency. Like I couldn't help but feel when Steppenwolf was around everyone was taking their sweet time. The Whedon cut at least whittled it down to its core and got rid of all the bloat. I felt like I was watching a rough cut. There's cosmetic improvements but that's about it.

This is like a Best of the Worst situation. MOS is probably the best, but only because it's the shortest and a combination of not being boring and still being fascinating in a mad way.

I'm glad Snyder finished his movie given his tragic circumstances, but now that it's over, let's put this crap to bed and move onto better things.

Man of Steel had some Nolan influence at least.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Man of Steel had some Nolan influence at least.

I want to say Snyder was restrained in certain places, like style... but then I think about the last half of the movie. "No slo mo? Okay then. How about I destroy an ENTIRE CITY AND HAVE SUPERMAN SNAP THE VILLAIN'S NECK!"

 

[Lily Adler]

I want to say Snyder was restrained in certain places, like style... but then I think about the last half of the movie. "No slo mo? Okay then. How about I destroy an ENTIRE CITY AND HAVE SUPERMAN SNAP THE VILLAIN'S NECK!"

Yep, the infamous third act was Snyder. I remember when it was leaked that Nolan was against it and wanted it to end with the everyone being sucked into the Phantom Zone.

I think what I hate more about the Snyderverse is he doesn't respect that Superman doesn't kill.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Yeah a lot if DC fans I've talked to on here simply don't want that to happen and I get different answers for it all the time. Although one does get said more than others and that's they're not experienced enough in live-action.

I don't think it's as experience in live action, so much as much as it is experience with storytelling skills. Most of their JL plots could have been movies. Those 40 minute stories and their 75 minute live actions animated films blow most of the DC movies out of the water anyway. I think the DCEU team for those fifteen years might be the best comic book adaptation operation ever in terms of consistent quality storytelling.

Funny thing is the first season of JL is by far the weakest, even the creative team wasn't very happy with it.

So that means you'll likely adore the other seasons lol.

Funnily enough I preferred season one to three and besides the treatment of Superman, I thought it was terrific.

 

[Prison Mike]

I want to say Snyder was restrained in certain places, like style... but then I think about the last half of the movie. "No slo mo? Okay then. How about I destroy an ENTIRE CITY AND HAVE SUPERMAN SNAP THE VILLAIN'S NECK!"

I never understood the criticism about the destruction though. If an alien race did invade, don’t think there would be mass casualties? I never got why people criticized that but were fine with the comics portraying the same thing.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I hate how its handled and don't think Snyder was making any kind of statement with it but on principle I actually do think if a building full of people collapses there should be a sense of horror and loss. It'd just be nice to have faces on those people and show Superman being more pro-active in avoiding collateral damage/saving people. There should be horror to the carnage but in a way that adds meaning when Superman prevents more of it from happening.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I never understood the criticism about the destruction though. If an alien race did invade, don’t think there would be mass casualties? I never got why people criticized that but were fine with the comics portraying the same thing.

I'll just say this because I don't want to stretch this out. Destruction is one thing, it's the gratuitous emphasis on the destruction in a 9/11 type way and a lack self awareness of the damage Superman himself is help causing which is out of character for him. Superman is all about preserving life. Yes, he's defending a city, but it became indulgent where I think Snyder was more concerned with the fight scene than realizing the effects of it or its implications. This would work better if the Hulk was doing this, not Superman. It's all sort of the culmination of what was wrong with the execution of the approach to Superman in that movie.

 

[Erzengel]

Hulk and Captain America are the examples of the stark differences with Superman. Hulk’s actions probably led to deaths but the destruction wasn’t excessive but expected and understandable. Captain America try to save as many people as he could is something Superman should have done. Catching something that would have killed people and thrown it at Zod. Trying to bring the fight away from Metropolis. And I’m not really big on the excuse, he’s new to all this.

 

[Micromind]

 

[Detective Conan]

Oh...Steve Rogers and Tony Stark exist in the DCAU you say? From Superman The animated series episode

"Apokolips ... Now!",

Available on HBO Max now!

 

[flickchick85]

Just got to "The Late Mr. Kent" on my rewatch. I honestly hold this episode right up there with the best of BTAS.

 

[Asr]

I'll just say this because I don't want to stretch this out. Destruction is one thing, it's the gratuitous emphasis on the destruction in a 9/11 type way and a lack self awareness of the damage Superman himself is help causing which is out of character for him. Superman is all about preserving life.

I get that lots of people have said this about MOS.

However, JLU did the exact same thing in the finale when Supes went up against Darkseid. He purposely pummeled Darkseid through buildings and a city street with the intent to possibly kill him. So what would you say about Superman in that context, on a show that is very inarguably created & written by people who understand the character far better than Snyder?

 

[terry78]

Lol not to be that guy, but shouldn't the JL discussion be in the actual forum?

 

[metaphysician]

Yeah I can see why the only minority being an alien wouldn't sit too well. I like Jon, but let's face it he only became interesting because of Shayera.

This was also before J'onn had sort of "become black" so to speak. At least, insofar as I can decipher, the popular acceptance and portrayal of the Martian Manhunter as an allegorically-black character played by a black actor began with Carl Lumby's excellent work on Justice League. So at this early stage of the game, even J'onn isn't really a minority.

 

[metaphysician]

Yep, the infamous third act was Snyder. I remember when it was leaked that Nolan was against it and wanted it to end with the everyone being sucked into the Phantom Zone.

I think what I hate more about the Snyderverse is he doesn't respect that Superman doesn't kill.

For me. . . okay, I am not a huge fan of the traditional silver age Code vs Killing, at least outside of actual Silver Age comics or homages. I'm fine with heroes using deadly force, *when suitably justified*. I've never had a problem with pretty much any of the Marvel heroes, for example, and Wonder Woman has likewise been fine ( in morality, though one scene in the Snyder Cut is a little skeevy in portrayal ).

The problem in MoS vis a vis such is three-fold. One, the final battle itself was poorly framed for justifying use of deadly force. You could see what the director *wanted* to achieve, but it was just clunky. You want the only option to be to kill Zod, but then you do a fight where the only way he ought to be *able* to kill him is by having overpowered him enough as to make it unnecessary. Two, and much more important. . . I don't insist 100% that Superman never ever kill, but I do insist that he be greatly respectful of life. And that. . . just isn't really present in the movie in a consistent sense, at least after he puts on the costume. There is just way too much collateral damage that goes unnoticed by Superman, and that *should* bother him. For every scene with him rescuing someone, there's another scene of his battles blowing up entire buildings, without any cinematic acknowledgement other than "Hey, this looks cool!" Its not like Superman has to successfully save every single life, but he damn well should be portrayed as *wanting* to save every life.

Oh, three? The final scene with Zod hinges on the idea that Superman doesn't kill and doesn't want to kill, but they forgot to actually *put that in the movie*. Neither Jor-El nor Jonathan include that in their moral philosophy, and Clark never brings it up in his own angsting, so literally the only way to know why killing Zod is supposed to be such a traumatizing and life-changing experience for Clark is by bringing in outside knowledge from the comic source material. . . that the movie in general at best shows indifferent distancing. And no, I don't buy for a second "But everybody knows killing is traumatic!", not on a level where the trauma of taking another life is supposed to compare with the trauma of half of Metropolis being leveled around you.

 

[metaphysician]

I never understood the criticism about the destruction though. If an alien race did invade, don’t think there would be mass casualties? I never got why people criticized that but were fine with the comics portraying the same thing.

Once again: its not that countless people died in the third act of Man of Steel. Its that *the director* refused to actually dramatize Clark as having a suitably characterized response to such happening.

 

[Lily Adler]

This was also before J'onn had sort of "become black" so to speak. At least, insofar as I can decipher, the popular acceptance and portrayal of the Martian Manhunter as an allegorically-black character played by a black actor began with Carl Lumby's excellent work on Justice League. So at this early stage of the game, even J'onn isn't really a minority.

Oh my I didn't know that.

 

[metaphysician]

Hulk and Captain America are the examples of the stark differences with Superman. Hulk’s actions probably led to deaths but the destruction wasn’t excessive but expected and understandable. Captain America try to save as many people as he could is something Superman should have done. Catching something that would have killed people and thrown it at Zod. Trying to bring the fight away from Metropolis. And I’m not really big on the excuse, he’s new to all this.

Indeed. Superman is only "new to all this" because the director, Zach Snyder, choose to make that so. What's more, he wasn't actually "new" to it in the Battle of Metropolis, since he had one prior fight with Kryptonians under his belt at that point: the one in Smallville. Clark had literal empirical experience with what happens when Kryptonians fight in a built up area. And the ways he adjusted his behavior, changed tactics, set goals? Zilch.

 

[Lily Adler]

For me. . . okay, I am not a huge fan of the traditional silver age Code vs Killing, at least outside of actual Silver Age comics or homages. I'm fine with heroes using deadly force, *when suitably justified*. I've never had a problem with pretty much any of the Marvel heroes, for example, and Wonder Woman has likewise been fine ( in morality, though one scene in the Snyder Cut is a little skeevy in portrayal ).

The problem in MoS vis a vis such is three-fold. One, the final battle itself was poorly framed for justifying use of deadly force. You could see what the director *wanted* to achieve, but it was just clunky. You want the only option to be to kill Zod, but then you do a fight where the only way he ought to be *able* to kill him is by having overpowered him enough as to make it unnecessary. Two, and much more important. . . I don't insist 100% that Superman never ever kill, but I do insist that he be greatly respectful of life. And that. . . just isn't really present in the movie in a consistent sense, at least after he puts on the costume. There is just way too much collateral damage that goes unnoticed by Superman, and that *should* bother him. For every scene with him rescuing someone, there's another scene of his battles blowing up entire buildings, without any cinematic acknowledgement other than "Hey, this looks cool!" Its not like Superman has to successfully save every single life, but he damn well should be portrayed as *wanting* to save every life.

Oh, three? The final scene with Zod hinges on the idea that Superman doesn't kill and doesn't want to kill, but they forgot to actually *put that in the movie*. Neither Jor-El nor Jonathan include that in their moral philosophy, and Clark never brings it up in his own angsting, so literally the only way to know why killing Zod is supposed to be such a traumatizing and life-changing experience for Clark is by bringing in outside knowledge from the comic source material. . . that the movie in general at best shows indifferent distancing. And no, I don't buy for a second "But everybody knows killing is traumatic!", not on a level where the trauma of taking another life is supposed to compare with the trauma of half of Metropolis being leveled around you.

You're preaching to the choir here. I defended the neck snap due to seeing what Zack and Goyer's intentions were for that scene, but agreed with others like @hopefulsuicide that it wasn't set up or executed well at all. Yes, they should have established the golden rule which Clark values human life and tries as much as he can to protect it. But I also recognize that the rule was a censorship order created by DC later on, which is why Batman used to have a gun.

 

[Prison Mike]

Yeah this is definitely an “agree to disagree” thing. I mean I thought the best way that he demonstrated he values human life was by killing Zod. Zod said it himself that he would stop at nothing until he kills all humans. It’s not like the neck snap was his first choice, it was the last resort. Maybe Snyder could have showcased the justification better but it never really bothered me in the first place.

 

[Sithborg]

I think, regardless with how it works on screen, you can easily be colored by Snyder's and Goyer's reasoning for it. Which is BAD.

 

[Detective Conan]

Just got to "The Late Mr. Kent" on my rewatch. I honestly hold this episode right up there with the best of BTAS.

My favorite line from that ep: "I am Clark Kent. I need to be Clark Kent. I’d go crazy if I were Superman all the time.”

That single line alone tells us more about Clark Kent as a character than the entirety of either Man Of Steel or BvS ever did.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah this is definitely an “agree to disagree” thing. I mean I thought the best way that he demonstrated he values human life was by killing Zod. Zod said it himself that he would stop at nothing until he kills all humans. It’s not like the neck snap was his first choice, it was the last resort. Maybe Snyder could have showcased the justification better but it never really bothered me in the first place.

What else did he try to do? I mean I wish he had the power of flight. If perhaps he had that, he could have removed Zod from the situation, but alas, Superman has never been able to fly.

The stupidty of the situation comes from the fact that Snyder and Goyer write it all into a corner. What should of happened is pretty obvious imo. Everyone goes back into the Phantom Zone. They spent an ridiculous amount of time setting it up. But instead of the obvious idea of the plan of Team Earth being to open up the Phantom Zone and throw everyone back into it, Snyder and Goyer went completely teen boy with it. The world engine sequence literally exist for the punchy, punchy. As if the movie doesn't have enough of that already.

 

[Daltonio]

Immediately changed my photo to Harley <3

 

[Asr]

The 90s live-action TMNT movies are on HBO Max, along with The Mummy 1999. Gonna have to rewatch those! Also the Beverly Hills Cop, Rocky, and Gremlins series are all there too. Have seen both Gremlins, but not the other two series. Can't wait to finally check them out.

So. many. movies on HBO Max that I'm starting to find it a little too ridiculously awesome. Neither Netflix, Hulu, or Amazon Prime have this kind of selection and it's mind-blowing the majority of the content is mostly from a single studio in the form of WB.

Not saying the other services are bad, but the movie selection on HBO Max is hands down the best. I feel like the other 3 are thriving mostly from their original TV series on the other hand.

Still haven't seen the Snyder Cut yet, but can't wait for GvK on there next!

Btw: the Aliens series and The Thing 1982 are leaving on 3/31, so now's the time to catch those for anyone who might want to! I've been seeing these FOX movies end up on Hulu recently so that's apparently where they're going now.