Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Detective Conan]

Reed Richards is an intelligent, confident, stick-in-the-mud guy. He's guilt ridden because he partially blames himself for his best friend Ben's condition. Those are not Caucasian specific traits.

 

[Marvel united]

It worked before. I don't think Marvel Studios should cede advantages to the 2005 version.

The difference is - the 2005 movie was it's own thing and it's own universe. Marvel has to take into account the wider Universe when casting these characters. Sue being younger than Peter Parker and his peers would be wrong. I could see wanting the X-Men to be that age but not Sue. The only one who should be in Tom Holland's age bracket is Johnny

 

[MasterCat]

And Jessica Alba was terrible and 30 is not old at all.
That age would make her younger than Spider-Man by the time FF get a film.... The guy who see's her as a big sister. That is too young for her and should be Johnny's age as he is Spider-Man's contemporary. Sue needs to be older than Johnny by at least 5 years as she is his big sister who practically raised him when their mother died and father went to jail.
Making her too young would remove the motherly aspect of the character.

An actress doesn't have to be born in 1991 or earlier in a film that may not come out until 2023 or 2024 to be motherly. Peyton List has lots of experience playing a motherly/big sister type for Marvel's parent company.
She'd be a much more natural box office draw for younger audiences than the Zendaya Disney pushed into Spider-Man.

 

[Detective Conan]

And Jessica Alba was terrible and 30 is not old at all.
That age would make her younger than Spider-Man by the time FF get a film.... The guy who see's her as a big sister. That is too young for her and should be Johnny's age as he is Spider-Man's contemporary. Sue needs to be older than Johnny by at least 5 years as she is his big sister who practically raised him when their mother died and father went to jail.
Making her too young would remove the motherly aspect of the character.

But she was hot but not as hot as her character's brother(literally!-- see what I did there?).

 

[MasterCat]

Speaking of Tom Holland, do you think he'll leave in 2023 if Spider-Man 4 comes out that year? His contract expires after the sequel to Spider-Man: Far From Home and while he seems to be enjoying himself, I don't see any actor consenting to play the same character in 10 films. I can see re-upping for appearances 7&8 and then he's gone.
So it seems unlikely that Sue Storm's actress will even meet Holland.

 

[Marvel united]

Reed's race isn't integral to the character at all, any race could play him. The best actor is someone who embody's Reed's personality and can perform him believably, his race doesn't have to be white.
There are going to be some people complaining as there always are, but the FF frankly aren't popular enough to cause major controversy over this. Those who won't watch because of it weren't going to watch the film anyway. There is no problem.

Reed is a white dude - The best actor for the job would by the words actual definition, embody all of his traits. Including his physical traits. The "best actor" race argument never made much sense to me because it's incorrect by definition. That's the wrong way to approach an argument in favor of race swaps imo

 

[Crimz]

An actress doesn't have to be born in 1991 or earlier in a film that may not come out until 2023 or 2024 to be motherly. Peyton List has lots of experience playing a motherly/big sister type for Marvel's parent company.
She'd be a much more natural box office draw for younger audiences than the Zendaya Disney pushed into Spider-Man.

List would be younger than Spider-Man.... That's wrong for Sue on so many levels. Sue and Reed are the Mom and Dad of Marvel, if there is a problem heroes usually go to them. They are the ones they ask for advice for, the ones that they depend on. Making them that young removes that completely, they no longer have the life experience. They'll no longer feel like the first family and more like a bunch of college friends.
Those ages should be for Peter, Johnny, and the X-Men. Not Sue.

Reed is a white dude - The best actor for the job would by the words actual definition, embody all of his traits. Including his physical traits. The "best actor" race argument never made much sense to me because it's incorrect by definition.

It's an adaptation. Changes can and will happen, Reed's race is not important to the character at all and can be changed with no impact to him whatsoever.
Here are the things that are important for a good Reed:

Believably Super intelligent
Leader-like qualities
Has a passion for science
Can get obsessed with his scientific endeavors
Can come across as cold at times but that is just a side-effect of his brilliance
Adores his family
Feels guilty for what happened to them
Everything he does is to make the world a better place (even when some things aren't well thought out or can backfire)
May be on the autistic spectrum

None of these have anything to do with race. The only thing physically that Reed needs is to be middle aged and have dark hair with graying temples. Something that can occur in any race.

 

[Dark Raven]

An actress doesn't have to be born in 1991 or earlier in a film that may not come out until 2023 or 2024 to be motherly. Peyton List has lots of experience playing a motherly/big sister type for Marvel's parent company.
She'd be a much more natural box office draw for younger audiences than the Zendaya Disney pushed into Spider-Man.

If Peyton List played Sue, then maybe Tom Holland's Peter Parker can hit on her. Maybe he'll even have better luck than Reed.

Instead of Namor swooping in to steal her away from Reed, he'll have to contend with young Peter Parker.

 

[MasterCat]

List would be younger than Spider-Man.... That's wrong for Sue on so many levels. Sue and Reed are the Mom and Dad of Marvel, if there is a problem heroes usually go to them. They are the ones they ask for advice for, the ones that they depend on.

They are absolutely NOT the mom and dad or first family of the MCU, though. That would be Henry & Janet. There's no way to retcon that away: even if Peyton Reed directs a 1960s period piece, they'll have been missing since the '60s like Carol Danvers with her '90s origin.

Marvel United, if the right actor has to be an exact physical match, that means live action Norman Osborn can't exist unless Tommy Lee Jones accepts the role.

 

[MasterCat]

If Peyton List played Sue, then maybe Tom Holland's Peter Parker can hit on her. Maybe he'll even have better luck than Reed.

Instead of Namor swooping in to steal her away from Reed, he'll have to contend with young Peter Parker.

Like I said, Holland will be gone after 6-8 appearances unless we have evidence to the contrary.

 

[Crimz]

They are absolutely NOT the mom and dad or first family of the MCU, though. That would be Henry & Janet. There's no way to retcon that away: even if Peyton Reed directs a 1960s period piece, they'll have been missing since the '60s like Carol Danvers with her '90s origin.

Marvel United, if the right actor has to be an exact physical match, that means live action Norman Osborn can't exist unless Tommy Lee Jones accepts the role.

They don't have to be from the 60s to be the Mom and Dad of the MCU and it sure as hell ain't Henry and Janet. They just have to be of a decent age and have experience (that comes with age).
Making them young is just repeating Fox's mistakes all over again. Both versions of Sue were played young and they both sucked. Marvel will separate their FF from those crappy ones as much as possible and making the team's ages better would be a great first step.

 

[Marvel united]

It's an adaptation. Changes can and will happen, Reed's race is not important to the character at all and can be changed with no impact to him whatsoever.

Except MCU Reed Richards won't have the same physical traits that the character has had for over 55 years. It's part of the iconography of his character. Of course it's an adaptation and I'm not saying he can't be changed. Marvel can do whatever they want with their property. What I'm saying is; the "best actor" argument in favor of race swaps makes zero sense and the F4 deserve to have a faithful adaption for once.

You say the F4 aren't popular enough for it to make that big of a splash, and that's not true. The MBJ-Johnny thing caused such a huge uproar to the point that interviewers were literally harassing Jordan and Mara over it and almost all of the reviews for the film mentioned Johnny's race swap. Reed is a bigger character than Johnny - changing his race is not going to fly under anyone's a radar. People will notice.

 

[MasterCat]

They don't have to be from the 60s to be the Mom and Dad of the MCU and it sure as hell ain't Henry and Janet.

Yes, it is. Henry Pym is a super-scientist with a wife with superpowers and a daughter in her late 30s.
Making everyone treat a Reed and Sue who just got their powers yesterday as the mom and dad of all superheroes would be downright offensive. Even if they got their powers in the '60s and then disappeared into the Quantum Realm or something until the 2020s, they'd only be Pym's contemporaries and he'd have more than half a century greater experience.

 

[David H.]

The mom and dad of the MCU are obviously Pepper and Tony...

Or it’s it Steve and Tony?

 

[Crimz]

Except MCU Reed Richards won't have the same physical traits that the character has had for over 55 years. It's part of the iconography of his character. Of course it's an adaptation and I'm not saying he can't be changed. Marvel can do whatever they want with their property. What I'm saying is; the "best actor" argument in favor of race swaps makes zero sense and the F4 deserve to have a faithful adaption for once.

You say the F4 aren't popular enough for it to make that big of a splash, and that's not true. The MBJ-Johnny thing caused such a huge uproar to the point that interviewers were literally harassing Jordan and Mara over it and almost all of the reviews for the film mentioned Johnny's race swap. Reed is a bigger character than Johnny - changing his race is not going to fly under anyone's a radar. People will notice.

Still don't see the problem with possibly changing his race. The MCU is not 616; we have old Janet and Hank with a new Wasp called Hope, an Elektra of Asian decent, A Thor who acts more like Hercules, A dead Quicksilver.... I can go on and on. There will be changes, there will never be a 100% faithful adaptation because honestly that would be a terrible film. A good FF film ios faithful in terms of spirit and what it sets out to do. Reed's race is not important at all and can change with no negative impact on the narrative at all.

The MBJ debacle was stupid. SO many people say that they don't care about the FF, but have a hissy fit when a member's race changes? Where did all these supposed fans come from? I have a sneaking suspicion that the "R" word may at play to many of those reactions.

 

[MasterCat]

The mom and dad of the MCU are obviously Pepper and Tony...

Also this. Reed is going to have to wait for Tony to die and Michael Douglas to retire from Marvel to take his turn.

 

[Crimz]

Yes, it is. Henry Pym is a super-scientist with a wife with superpowers and a daughter in her late 30s.
Making everyone treat a Reed and Sue who just got their powers yesterday as the mom and dad of all superheroes would be downright offensive. Even if they got their powers in the '60s and then disappeared into the Quantum Realm or something until the 2020s, they'd only be Pym's contemporaries and he'd have more than half a century greater experience.

Pym has never shown up outside of the Ant-Man films and is quite frankly a terrible father. Janet was assumed dead until the latest film. There are not considered the Mom and Dad of the MCU.
I'm not saying Reed and Sue will start off that way, it will be an eventual process of a couple of films as the characters interact with others and grow. It's something that would never happen with the Kidtastic Four.

As I said before, young FF would just be Marvel repeating Fox's mistakes.

Also this. Reed is going to have to wait for Tony to die and Michael Douglas to retire from Marvel to take his turn.

Well then it's a good thing that his contract is up and Hank is irrelevant outside of the Ant-Man films.

 

[David H.]

What’s the hang up here? Some argue that it’s the Guardians of the Galaxy and not The Avengers who are the Marvel family so if the FF come in and make a big splash then that’s that and no biggie. No one actually cares about in-universe seniority.

Let’s go back to the important topics: height and age.

 

[Dark Raven]

Still don't see the problem with possibly changing his race. The MCU is not 616; we have old Janet and Hank with a new Wasp called Hope, an Elektra of Asian decent, A Thor who acts more like Hercules, A dead Quicksilver.... I can go on and on. There will be changes, there will never be a 100% faithful adaptation because honestly that would be a terrible film. A good FF film ios faithful in terms of spirit and what it sets out to do. Reed's race is not important at all and can change with no negative impact on the narrative at all.

The MBJ debacle was stupid. SO many people say that they don't care about the FF, but have a hissy fit when a member's race changes? Where did all these supposed fans come from? I have a sneaking suspicion that the "R" word may at play to many of those reactions.

The ones who said they didn't care about the FF were the FFINO defenders. They didn't care at all about any changes made to the source material. All the "supposed" FF fans were the rest of us who did actually care. We didn't suddenly crawl out of the wood work as if we weren't concerned with the FF at all before.

 

[MasterCat]

I'm not saying Reed and Sue will start off that way, it will be an eventual process of a couple of films as the characters interact with others and grow.

No. Reed will be a complete Marty Stu if superheroes who have been active longer than him start treating him like the community dad while Tony and Hank are alive. He'd be a walking character derailment field. And on top of that you'd age Sue up so she could be a Mary... Sue.

This concept would not only make the F4 film less young and colorful than the 2005 version, but ruin the Marvel films they cross over to.

 

[Crimz]

The ones who said they didn't care about the FF were the FFINO defenders. They didn't care at all about any changes made to the source material. All the "supposed" FF fans were the rest of us who did actually care. We didn't suddenly crawl out of the wood work as if we weren't concerned with the FF at all before.

No there are a lot of people who don't care. People who let the comics fail, say that the FF don't work on film, say that the FF are boring because of the films. Yet they somehow seemed to care when that race change happened and not any of the other terrible decisions in Fant4stic....

 

[Crimz]

No. Reed will be a complete Marty Stu if superheroes who have been active longer than him start treating him like the community dad while Tony and Hank are alive. He'd be a walking character derailment field. And on top of that you'd age Sue up so she could be a Mary... Sue.

This concept would not only make the F4 film less young and colorf than the 2005 version, but ruin the Marvel films they cross over to.

Mary Sue? Seriously? People overuse that word to the point where it makes no sense.

The 2005 films were trash and treated the FF like they were a sitcom. Jessica Alba was absolutely terrible and her age was one of the factors for her being miscast.

I'm getting tired of this and will end it with this: Really young Sue, or Reed, or Ben is an incredibly bad idea that should never be implemented in any FF film that wants to be at least decent let alone good. It only takes away aspects of the characters for nothing but superficial reasons.

 

[Marvel united]

No there are a lot of people who don't care. People who let the comics fail, say that the FF don't work on film, say that the FF are boring because of the films. Yet they somehow seemed to care when that race change happened and not any of the other terrible decisions in Fant4stic....

I cared about the F4. I grew up reading the Byrne run, loved the 90s show and that show that came out on cartoon network in the 2000s. I wasn't happy when MBJ was announced but there were many other problems with that film and MBJ was a bright spot. The whole movie took a dump over the source material - MBJ was just another deviation.

But I can assure you there were true fans who weren't racist that did not want race swaps. Just because you want the movie to be faithful to the source material doesn't make you a racist

 

[Detective Conan]

As I said before, young FF would just be Marvel repeating Fox's mistakes

Well more precisely the Ultimate Universe’s mistakes since the idea of a ‘young’ Fantastic Four comes from there and it was always one of that lines weakest titles.

 

[Crimz]

I cared about the F4. I grew up reading the Byrne run, loved the 90s show and that show that came out on cartoon network in the 2000s. I wasn't happy when MBJ was announced but there were many other problems with that film and MBJ was a bright spot. The whole movie took a dump over the source material - MBJ was just another deviation.

But I can assure you there were true fans who weren't racist that did not want race swaps. Just because you want the movie to be faithful to the source material doesn't make you a racist

Of course there were FF fans who were against it, I'm not saying there aren't and that you aren't. Just that they likely weren't the majority of the voices showing disdain for that change. The FF's popularity has taken a nosedive after the crappy Fox films and Marvel's treatment of the characters. It's incredibly fishy that so much anger was shown towards that one change and, out of all the things we heard from that mess of a film, it was the one that had so many people ranting and raving. I love the FF but they aren't that popular.
I call shenanigans.

Well more precisely the Ultimate Universe’s mistakes since the idea of a ‘young’ Fantastic Four comes from there and it was always one of that lines weakest titles.

I hated Ultimate FF. Sue had none of what made 616 Sue great was mean and not likable. Ben started out fine but became more of mean and unlikable. They made Reed a villain which is a positive lol. Johnny was..... there.
Making them young also made them not feel like a family at all.