MCU Fight: Ebony Maw vs Scarlet Witch

[Batmannerism]

Thanos wasn't using any of the Infinity Stones (definitely not all 5) while walking through Wanda's force field and he just used physical strength and didn't seem to struggle very much. He did it much easier than people are making it out to be, it only slowed him down a little bit.

Also upon further viewings Wanda was getting trounced by Proxima Midnight for most of their first fight. Even after she defeated Proxima with Black Widow and Okoye she fell to the ground visibly drained.

Her power seem more impressive against hordes of enemies and objects like those giant wheels. Her actual combat prowess kind of sucks considering how much power she has. She also seems to get weaker and physically drained after constant use of her powers.

Thanos was pushing against Wanda's beam with the gauntlet.

As for combat prowess, I have to ask which movies youve been watching ?

The one where she incapacitated Cap, Widow and Thor ( yes, Thor !)with her psychic powers and then took out a ton of killer robots and delivered the coup de gras to the head honcho murder bot ?

The one where she contained an explosion and pulled gas out of a building and then fought her friends and took out Iron Man without seriously harming him ?

Or the one where she held off Proxima and Glaive by herself while protecting a wounded Vision. 2 on one is tough for anyone ( even Hela had more trouble with Thor and Valkyrie than just Thor alone). Cap and company took them down via a combination of surprise attack and 3 on 2. She then saves most of the Wakandan army from the death wheels, and Widow and Okoye from Proxima, killing Proxima in the process.

In both Civil War and IW Wanda only gets dropped when someone hits her from behind ( eg War Machine and Proxima).

After all that, saying her combat prowess sucks is a bit like saying Thor's combat prowess sucks because his sister repeatedly kicked his ass and left him permanently blind in one eye, in his last movie and the Hulk KO'd him - and before that Kurse nearly killed him.

Those criticisms would be extremely unfair, as Thor is clearly one of the greatest fighters in the MCU - but everyone gets beat from time to time, the stories would be boring if they didn't.

 

[jaqua99]

I had the day off and my wife is out of town, so I saw IW, twice back to back - still awesome BTW ( what stands out more each time was how good the characterisation of Thanos was)

However, back to the topic at hand. Effortless TK looks cute.

Plot devices you say. While Wanda's ability to destroy the mind stone could be considered a plot device, it doesn't change the fact that she's enormously powerful in general.

Wanda took out the a bunch of giant rolling wheels of death with little effort, and again destroying an infinity stone while holding off Thanos at the same time while he had 5 stones in the gauntlet - if that aint raw power, what is ? Maw's Tk feats, while precise, don't have anywhere near that level of power.

Thanos trying to force his way forward and not getting very far ( and he walked through the rest of the Avengers) isnt a plot device - unless Wanda has a special "slow Thanos down" ability, that would be a plot device.

Similarly she doesnt have a particular ability that's effective against giant rolling death wheels ( which would be a plot device), she's just massively powerful.

After repeat viewings I'm more impressed by Wanda's feats, rather than Maw's.

Im talking in relation to the stones, plot device. Also, he wasnt using stones when he was walking towards her. He also had his free hand pushing her blast, so her energy blasts likely dont do much more than push Thanos back, in the same way a jet of water can push us back.

Wanda's tk feat at the end was nice, but Maw's effortless use of TK isnt cute lol. Its practical and provides him with a MASSIVE speed advantage, we saw how quickly he tied up strange. I contest Maw can restrain wanda before she can unleash an attack.

Also, Cull was launched at Maw, a character bigger than Hulk, and he was flung away with an effortless gesture.

If Maw can casually ragdoll Cull with a Gesture, I wouldnt think tk'ing a large ship like the one Wanda did would be that out of the question. He is too fast, to practical, too strategic and too smooth.

Wanda's best chance is if Maw toys with her, which was seemingly in character.

But while I have you, tier placement please, for both

 

[Batmannerism]

Im talking in relation to the stones, plot device. Also, he wasnt using stones when he was walking towards her. He also had his free hand pushing her blast, so her energy blasts likely dont do much more than push Thanos back, in the same way a jet of water can push us back.

Wanda's tk feat at the end was nice, but Maw's effortless use of TK isnt cute lol. Its practical and provides him with a MASSIVE speed advantage, we saw how quickly he tied up strange. I contest Maw can restrain wanda before she can unleash an attack.

Also, Cull was launched at Maw, a character bigger than Hulk, and he was flung away with an effortless gesture.

If Maw can casually ragdoll Cull with a Gesture, I wouldnt think tk'ing a large ship like the one Wanda did would be that out of the question. He is too fast, to practical, too strategic and too smooth.

Wanda's best chance is if Maw toys with her, which was seemingly in character.

But while I have you, tier placement please, for both

The way I saw it, after 3 viewings was that Thanos was deflecting Wanda's beam with the gauntlet, as he had it out in front of him and thats where the beam was making contact. Ragdolling Cull was not all that impressive, he was merely a large flying object - those death wheels were much, much bigger !

I will admit that cutting the car that Stark threw at him, in half in mid-flight, looked cool. Although i would suggest that completely controlling a huge swirling mass of gaseous particles is much more difficult feat.

The feat of restraining Thor wasnt all that impressive, as Thor had clearly had the **** kicked out of him by Thanos prior to that.

If you watch the fight with Strange carefully, you ll note that Maw uses groups of small objects rather than single massivr objects - and he really did own Strange, who fought stupidly, if he'd fought Thanos that way he'd have been splattered.

As far as restraining Wanda goes, unlike Strange she has demonstrated that she doesnt need to gesture ( neither does Maw, but he does so for dramatic effect) so restraint isnt a problem. The moment she gets angry, he's toast.

I reckon in a fight he would get the early advantage, and then start talking ( which is precisely how Tony beat him) at that point Wanda would get pissed off and blast him off the planet.

However, I realise that the weight of numbers is solidly against me on this poll, so I am reduced to weeping and gnashing my teeth at everyone's inability to see that Wanda would squish Maw like a bug..... so I'll just have to pick myself up, dust myself off and accept the result with some grace.

Anyway, personally I put Wanda at low level transcendent and Maw upper level powerhouse, well above Iron Man.

 

[BigThor]

Thanos was pushing against Wanda's beam with the gauntlet.

As for combat prowess, I have to ask which movies youve been watching ?

The one where she incapacitated Cap, Widow and Thor ( yes, Thor !)with her psychic powers and then took out a ton of killer robots and delivered the coup de gras to the head honcho murder bot ?

The one where she contained an explosion and pulled gas out of a building and then fought her friends and took out Iron Man without seriously harming him ?

Or the one where she held off Proxima and Glaive by herself while protecting a wounded Vision. 2 on one is tough for anyone ( even Hela had more trouble with Thor and Valkyrie than just Thor alone). Cap and company took them down via a combination of surprise attack and 3 on 2. She then saves most of the Wakandan army from the death wheels, and Widow and Okoye from Proxima, killing Proxima in the process.

In both Civil War and IW Wanda only gets dropped when someone hits her from behind ( eg War Machine and Proxima).

After all that, saying her combat prowess sucks is a bit like saying Thor's combat prowess sucks because his sister repeatedly kicked his ass and left him permanently blind in one eye, in his last movie and the Hulk KO'd him - and before that Kurse nearly killed him.

Those criticisms would be extremely unfair, as Thor is clearly one of the greatest fighters in the MCU - but everyone gets beat from time to time, the stories would be boring if they didn't.

Let's put those Thor slights in perspective.

Kurse didn't nearly kill him he didn't even knock him out Thor stood up and walked off, he just beat Thor's ass (one of only two TRUE onscreen losses MCU Thor has). Also saying Hulk KO'd is just plain silly, the obedience disk did more of the KO'ing than Hulk himself since it depowered him according to Taika Waititi. I don't even count Thor's fights with Hulk as both were interrupted. Thanos with the Power Stone and The Black Order beat Thor, but we have no clue if it was one on one or if they jumped him (civilian Asgardians are fodder).

Hela did kick Thor's ass, but her power was stated by Odin to be UNLIMITED while on Asgard (no shame in losing to someone with unlimited powers). Oh and guess what, she never KO'd him but he did KO her on the balcony of the throne room with that giant lightning bolt without any outside help and it wasn't a sucker punch (in MMA and Boxing that counts a victory no matter how bad you were losing). So technically Thor and Hela are 1-1 in the series, I don't count their first scuffle as Thor accidentally fell out of the bifrost while dodging her attack (she was gonna beat his ass tho).

Now let's look at Thor's victories, 2-0 versus Loki, smashed The Destroyer (who smashed everyone in the movie), beat the Frost Giants silly and one shot their giant Frost Monster, one shot THREE building sized Leviathans in The Avengers, went toe to toe with a Reality Stone infused Malekith (he even got the better of most exchanges), he one shot a 20 foot Kronan, single handedly made an entire army of Marauders surrender, beat the **** out Asgardian guards with his bare hands while they had weapons, beat the **** out of Surtur and his goons, turned the tide of the entire Wakandan battle, overpowered all 6 Stones being simultaneously used by Thanos's using a full powered Infinity Gauntlet (Thor and Thanos are 1-1 in their series).

Comparing Thor's combat prowess to Wanda's is like comparing Muhammad Ali to a 1st grader. Her sneaking up on Thor and giving him a prophetic vision wasn't a combat feat, it was a stealth feat while Quicksilver distracted them. Hell she helped Thor more than hurt him by helping reveal the threat of The Infinity Stones.

She couldn't replicate it in an actual combat situation, she would get one shot and killed. Like she would be killed by Maw and killed by Strange. She did not hold off Proxima and Corvus, most of that fight was Proxima Vs Wanda and Corvus Vs Vision. It was only two and one at the VERY end before Captain America and Co. saved her.

So congratulations, she fought and was losing the majority of the time against a Captain America level opponent and defeated some weak and Ultron robots that weren't even a threat to Black Widow. She had to team up with Black Widow and Okoye to beat Proxima and collapsed to the ground after ward. She removed Ultron Prime's heart after he was already incapacitated and on death's door from Thor, Vision, Iron Man, and Hulk (her work was literally done for her).

Like I said she is very POWERFUL but her actual combat prowess suck in relation to how high her power level and that opinion will not change.

 

[Thör-El]

The way I saw it, after 3 viewings was that Thanos was deflecting Wanda's beam with the gauntlet, as he had it out in front of him and thats where the beam was making contact. Ragdolling Cull was not all that impressive, he was merely a large flying object - those death wheels were much, much bigger !

I will admit that cutting the car that Stark threw at him, in half in mid-flight, looked cool. Although i would suggest that completely controlling a huge swirling mass of gaseous particles is much more difficult feat.

The feat of restraining Thor wasnt all that impressive, as Thor had clearly had the **** kicked out of him by Thanos prior to that.

If you watch the fight with Strange carefully, you ll note that Maw uses groups of small objects rather than single massivr objects - and he really did own Strange, who fought stupidly, if he'd fought Thanos that way he'd have been splattered.

As far as restraining Wanda goes, unlike Strange she has demonstrated that she doesnt need to gesture ( neither does Maw, but he does so for dramatic effect) so restraint isnt a problem. The moment she gets angry, he's toast.

I reckon in a fight he would get the early advantage, and then start talking ( which is precisely how Tony beat him) at that point Wanda would get pissed off and blast him off the planet.

However, I realise that the weight of numbers is solidly against me on this poll, so I am reduced to weeping and gnashing my teeth at everyone's inability to see that Wanda would squish Maw like a bug..... so I'll just have to pick myself up, dust myself off and accept the result with some grace.

Anyway, personally I put Wanda at low level transcendent and Maw upper level powerhouse, well above Iron Man.

Agreed, Wanda's telekinesis has some incredible feats and there's a good chance she can just overpower him. Even putting that aside though, Maw's a glass cannon who was cut by shrapnel when he wasn't quick enough to levitate a car to block it whereas Wanda can make force fields out of nothing to block attacks/cushion falls. I just can't see Maw getting past her defences before she gets past his.

I think I should be able to hold back the tears but yeah, I'm surprised this vote went the way it did. For me, Wanda's at the top of the powerhouse tier (and still getting stronger with each film) and Maw's middling in the same tier.

 

[Thör-El]

Let's put those Thor slights in perspective.

Kurse didn't nearly kill him he didn't even knock him out Thor stood up and walked off, he just beat Thor's ass (one of only two TRUE onscreen losses MCU Thor has). Also saying Hulk KO'd is just plain silly, the obedience disk did more of the KO'ing than Hulk himself since it depowered him according to Taika Waititi. I don't even count Thor's fights with Hulk as both were interrupted. Thanos with the Power Stone and The Black Order beat Thor, but we have no clue if it was one on one or if they jumped him (civilian Asgardians are fodder).

Hela did kick Thor's ass, but her power was stated by Odin to be UNLIMITED while on Asgard (no shame in losing to someone with unlimited powers). Oh and guess what, she never KO'd him but he did KO her on the balcony of the throne room with that giant lightning bolt without any outside help and it wasn't a sucker punch (in MMA and Boxing that counts a victory no matter how bad you were losing). So technically Thor and Hela are 1-1 in the series, I don't count their first scuffle as Thor accidentally fell out of the bifrost while dodging her attack (she was gonna beat his ass tho).

Now let's look at Thor's victories, 2-0 versus Loki, smashed The Destroyer (who smashed everyone in the movie), beat the Frost Giants silly and one shot their giant Frost Monster, one shot THREE building sized Leviathans in The Avengers, went toe to toe with a Reality Stone infused Malekith (he even got the better of most exchanges), he one shot a 20 foot Kronan, single handedly made an entire army of Marauders surrender, beat the **** out Asgardian guards with his bare hands while they had weapons, beat the **** out of Surtur and his goons, turned the tide of the entire Wakandan battle, overpowered all 6 Stones being simultaneously used by Thanos's using a full powered Infinity Gauntlet (Thor and Thanos are 1-1 in their series).

All true but Thor's way above Maw and Scarlet Witch so I'm not sure why it's relevant. All he seemed to be saying was 'even Thor loses fights sometimes and he's one of the best fighters in the MCU'.

Comparing Thor's combat prowess to Wanda's is like comparing Muhammad Ali to a 1st grader. Her sneaking up on Thor and giving him a prophetic vision wasn't a combat feat, it was a stealth feat while Quicksilver distracted them. Hell she helped Thor more than hurt him by helping reveal the threat of The Infinity Stones.

She couldn't replicate it in an actual combat situation, she would get one shot and killed.

I don't think anyone was arguing she could beat Thor. Whilst she did need stealth to pull it off her telepathy was capable of messing with Thor's head and put him out of the fight for long enough that Stark had to take on Hulk solo. There's no denying that's impressive. So is her other telepathy feat of controlling hundreds of people at once to make them evacuate.

Like she would be killed by Maw and killed by Strange.

Strange at his best takes a majority over Scarlet Witch but it'd be a good fight. Maw doesn't have the raw power or the defences/durability to have the advantage over her.

She did not hold off Proxima and Corvus, most of that fight was Proxima Vs Wanda and Corvus Vs Vision. It was only two and one at the VERY end before Captain America and Co. saved her.

Spoiler

If you watch the fight again you'll see she ragdolled Corvus and Proxima together and tried to get Vision to safety, then she took Proxima on in close quarters combat even though it's not her strength, ragdolled Proxima, ragdolled Corvus and tried to get Vision to safety again, then she was about to take them both on when Team Cap arrived.

Then in Wakanda Proxima uses a sneak attack and stuns her with a blow to the back of the head (which was presumably superhuman and Wanda's a glass cannon). As soon as she recovers she kills Proxima and goes off to hold off Thanos with one hand whilst destroying an Infinity Stone with the other.

She removed Ultron Prime's heart after he was already incapacitated and on death's door from Thor, Vision, Iron Man, and Hulk (her work was literally done for her).

Sure but it still makes her one of only three MCU characters to tear through Vibranium.

 

[Batmannerism]

Let's put those Thor slights in perspective.

Kurse didn't nearly kill him he didn't even knock him out Thor stood up and walked off, he just beat Thor's ass (one of only two TRUE onscreen losses MCU Thor has). Also saying Hulk KO'd is just plain silly, the obedience disk did more of the KO'ing than Hulk himself since it depowered him according to Taika Waititi. I don't even count Thor's fights with Hulk as both were interrupted. Thanos with the Power Stone and The Black Order beat Thor, but we have no clue if it was one on one or if they jumped him (civilian Asgardians are fodder).

Hela did kick Thor's ass, but her power was stated by Odin to be UNLIMITED while on Asgard (no shame in losing to someone with unlimited powers). Oh and guess what, she never KO'd him but he did KO her on the balcony of the throne room with that giant lightning bolt without any outside help and it wasn't a sucker punch (in MMA and Boxing that counts a victory no matter how bad you were losing). So technically Thor and Hela are 1-1 in the series, I don't count their first scuffle as Thor accidentally fell out of the bifrost while dodging her attack (she was gonna beat his ass tho).

Now let's look at Thor's victories, 2-0 versus Loki, smashed The Destroyer (who smashed everyone in the movie), beat the Frost Giants silly and one shot their giant Frost Monster, one shot THREE building sized Leviathans in The Avengers, went toe to toe with a Reality Stone infused Malekith (he even got the better of most exchanges), he one shot a 20 foot Kronan, single handedly made an entire army of Marauders surrender, beat the **** out Asgardian guards with his bare hands while they had weapons, beat the **** out of Surtur and his goons, turned the tide of the entire Wakandan battle, overpowered all 6 Stones being simultaneously used by Thanos's using a full powered Infinity Gauntlet (Thor and Thanos are 1-1 in their series).

Comparing Thor's combat prowess to Wanda's is like comparing Muhammad Ali to a 1st grader. Her sneaking up on Thor and giving him a prophetic vision wasn't a combat feat, it was a stealth feat while Quicksilver distracted them. Hell she helped Thor more than hurt him by helping reveal the threat of The Infinity Stones.

She couldn't replicate it in an actual combat situation, she would get one shot and killed. Like she would be killed by Maw and killed by Strange. She did not hold off Proxima and Corvus, most of that fight was Proxima Vs Wanda and Corvus Vs Vision. It was only two and one at the VERY end before Captain America and Co. saved her.

So congratulations, she fought and was losing the majority of the time against a Captain America level opponent and defeated some weak and Ultron robots that weren't even a threat to Black Widow. She had to team up with Black Widow and Okoye to beat Proxima and collapsed to the ground after ward. She removed Ultron Prime's heart after he was already incapacitated and on death's door from Thor, Vision, Iron Man, and Hulk (her work was literally done for her).

Like I said she is very POWERFUL but her actual combat prowess suck in relation to how high her power level and that opinion will not change.

Dude. Thanks for that, becsuse somehow you totally missed my point, and proved it at the same time.

What I was trying to say was that your criticism of Wanda 's combat prowess is based on a couple of very minor defeats.

The comparison with Thor is that he too has had a bunch of defeats ( some of which are actually worse than Wanda's) but that doesn't mean he's not proficient in combat - because clearly he's the MCU champ at the moment.

I wasnt trying to re open old arguments about who did or didn't kick Thor's ass - and while I disagree with a number of your statements, about both Wanda and Thor, above, ( especially the Wanda v Corvus/Proxima fight) that's not my point.

I'm was never trying to compare Thor to Wanda (he's got about 1480 years of experience on her and is a god).

What I'm saying is that the rationale behind your statement that Wanda's combat prowess sucks, is flawed.

I used Thor as the prime MCU example of why its flawed, because if you apply that same rationale to Thor it becomes even more obvious why it's flawed, which is what your post , above, is all about.

So you proved my point. And believe it or not everybody wins - Thor wins, Wanda wins ! Time to celebrate !

 

[Batmannerism]

All true but Thor's way above Maw and Scarlet Witch so I'm not sure why it's relevant. All he seemed to be saying was 'even Thor loses fights sometimes and he's one of the best fighters in the MCU'.



I don't think anyone was arguing she could beat Thor. Whilst she did need stealth to pull it off her telepathy was capable of messing with Thor's head and put him out of the fight for long enough that Stark had to take on Hulk solo. There's no denying that's impressive. So is her other telepathy feat of controlling hundreds of people at once to make them evacuate.


Strange at his best takes a majority over Scarlet Witch but it'd be a good fight. Maw doesn't have the raw power or the defences/durability to have the advantage over her.

Spoiler

If you watch the fight again you'll see she ragdolled Corvus and Proxima together and tried to get Vision to safety, then she took Proxima on in close quarters combat even though it's not her strength, ragdolled Proxima, ragdolled Corvus and tried to get Vision to safety again, then she was about to take them both on when Team Cap arrived.

Then in Wakanda Proxima uses a sneak attack and stuns her with a blow to the back of the head (which was presumably superhuman and Wanda's a glass cannon). As soon as she recovers she kills Proxima and goes off to hold off Thanos with one hand whilst destroying an Infinity Stone with the other.

Sure but it still makes her one of only three MCU characters to tear through Vibranium.

Dude, you totally got what I was trying to say. Sincere thanks for that. Clearly you are a genius !


( and yes, thats exactly how I observed Wanda vs Corvus/Proxima - noting that Proxima's first blast hits Wanda in the back and sends her flying across the street and through a window, but she's back up in no Time to kick ass, guess those Sokovian girls are tough.
In Wakanda Proxima hits her from behind - say, in Civil War Rhodey blasts her from behind while she's holding up the control tower debris and in Avengers AoU Hawkeye surprises her with his stunner arrow, but she's up real quick to take out the Hulk. Who actually takes Wanda on toe to toe and wins, without a sneak attack ?

Sorry I'm getting off topic here, because as Thor El so ably observed, the point wasn't to argue the details of the fights or Thor vs Wanda, it's just that everyone takes their lumps.

Muhammad Ali was an inadvertent but appropriate analogy from my friend BigThor, despite being the greatest of all time he took some horrendous beatings ( Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Larry Holmes can all attest to that).

 

[jaqua99]

The thing with Wanda is that while her raw power feats are clearly high level powerhouse, she has no good combat feats against other powerhouses. In fact, she doesnt have any feats against power houses.

Only vs superhuman and and top tier levels. She also never has employeed mind control in combat. Sneaking up on Thor and the others is nice, but she needed to be close. And she hasnt done anything close to mind control in combat so there is nothing telling me she could employ it effectively in combat, or that she'd even attempt to. Tk and energy blasts are her MO in combat.

So what can she do before Maw's move? He's way quicker in combat speed and combat speed is a huge, undeniable advantage that those arguing Wanda have not acknowledged

 

[BigThor]

All true but Thor's way above Maw and Scarlet Witch so I'm not sure why it's relevant. All he seemed to be saying was 'even Thor loses fights sometimes and he's one of the best fighters in the MCU'.

Yeah true, Kurse flat out embarrassed Thor one of the most one sided fights in all of the MCU.

Wanda or nobody else have never lost that badly too my knowledge, but to be fair Thor was a b**** in TDW compared to other films) up until the final fight with Malekith.

Thor seemed weak without Molnir, he barely looked super strong without it and was the most "hammer dependent" Thor of any of the MCU films. But he did display greater pure fighting technique than most other MCU besides Ragnarok (against those armed Asgardian guards and the Marauders escaping prison).

I don't think anyone was arguing she could beat Thor. Whilst she did need stealth to pull it off her telepathy was capable of messing with Thor's head and put him out of the fight for long enough that Stark had to take on Hulk solo. There's no denying that's impressive. So is her other telepathy feat of controlling hundreds of people at once to make them evacuate.

Also true, it is very impressive

Strange at his best takes a majority over Scarlet Witch but it'd be a good fight. Maw doesn't have the raw power or the defences/durability to have the advantage over her.

Strange vs Wanda is the battle I originally wanted to make last week, although I think Strange smashes her worse than Maw. Strange is far too versatile for Wanda, Maw himself mainly beat Strange by being quicker on the draw and more efficient.

Spoiler

If you watch the fight again you'll see she ragdolled Corvus and Proxima together and tried to get Vision to safety, then she took Proxima on in close quarters combat even though it's not her strength, ragdolled Proxima, ragdolled Corvus and tried to get Vision to safety again, then she was about to take them both on when Team Cap arrived.

Then in Wakanda Proxima uses a sneak attack and stuns her with a blow to the back of the head (which was presumably superhuman and Wanda's a glass cannon). As soon as she recovers she kills Proxima and goes off to hold off Thanos with one hand whilst destroying an Infinity Stone with the other.

She does get the better of Corvus, but Proxima still dominated most of the exchanges when they fought one on one.

You're right Proxima did get a sneak attack in Wakanda I noticed that as well, chalk that up to the same plot armor that Black Widow has because her head should have been knocked off.

Sure but it still makes her one of only three MCU characters to tear through Vibranium.

Just watched this scene again and it was WAY more impressive than I remembered, peharps her best feat yet. Although what she did was pull his heart and use the heart itself which is vibranium to tear through the chest.

Definitely her most skilled used of telekinesis by miles, reminiscent of Maw actually.

Dude. Thanks for that, becsuse somehow you totally missed my point, and proved it at the same time.

What I was trying to say was that your criticism of Wanda 's combat prowess is based on a couple of very minor defeats.

The comparison with Thor is that he too has had a bunch of defeats ( some of which are actually worse than Wanda's) but that doesn't mean he's not proficient in combat - because clearly he's the MCU champ at the moment.

I wasnt trying to re open old arguments about who did or didn't kick Thor's ass - and while I disagree with a number of your statements, about both Wanda and Thor, above, ( especially the Wanda v Corvus/Proxima fight) that's not my point.

I'm was never trying to compare Thor to Wanda (he's got about 1480 years of experience on her and is a god).

What I'm saying is that the rationale behind your statement that Wanda's combat prowess sucks, is flawed.

I used Thor as the prime MCU example of why its flawed, because if you apply that same rationale to Thor it becomes even more obvious why it's flawed, which is what your post , above, is all about.

So you proved my point. And believe it or not everybody wins - Thor wins, Wanda wins ! Time to celebrate !

Oops sorry it was more so me analyzing Thor's battles outloud, it did seem FAR more agumentative than I meant to come off. My best friend was in town staying over at my place and we debate nonstop I guess I was still in that mode.

My apologies, we get pretty hyped and it sometimes lingers on for a couple of hours.

 

[Flash525]

I was going to go with Wanda, as I think she has the potential to be a powerhouse (not in the physical sense, but in the mystic sense). However, I think Maw has experience on his side, and so he gets my vote.

 

[Thör-El]

Dude, you totally got what I was trying to say. Sincere thanks for that. Clearly you are a genius !

Thanks man! We seem to be swimming against the tide on this one but great minds think alike

The thing with Wanda is that while her raw power feats are clearly high level powerhouse, she has no good combat feats against other powerhouses. In fact, she doesnt have any feats against power houses.

The only powerhouses/transcendents she's shared screentime with are Ultron Prime, Thor, Hulk, Vision and Thanos. She's been consistently on the same side as two of those.
She never got to fight Ultron one on one but when he was downed she was the one to tear through his vibranium and kill him so it's hard to argue she couldn't give him trouble.
The two most powerful characters besides her in Civil War were Iron Man (just below Powerhouse tier) and Vision. She buried one under a pile of cars and slammed the other through about ten floors of concrete.
As for Infinity War

Spoiler

she was able to hold Thanos back one handed whilst focusing on destroying Vision's Infinity Gem with the other.

She also has never employed mind control in combat. Sneaking up on Thor and the others is nice, but she needed to be close. And she hasnt done anything close to mind control in combat so there is nothing telling me she could employ it effectively in combat, or that she'd even attempt to. Tk and energy blasts are her MO in combat.

That's a fair point, I presumed she couldn't in AoU because the enemies were robots and didn't in Civil War for all the obvious moral reasons. After Infinity War I guess the jury's out though.

Her TK, energy blasts and shields are more than enough to beat Maw anyway.

So what can she do before Maw's move? He's way quicker in combat speed and combat speed is a huge, undeniable advantage that those arguing Wanda have not acknowledged

Actually, I think I said that on page one. SW uses power assisted jumps/hovering whereas Maw can outright fly so if this was a race he'd have the advantage. He didn't seem like an agile fighter that dodged and weaved though and his reaction time was nothing amazing.

Spoiler

Like I said before, he was too slow levitating a car to block Shrapnel and it cut him.

His defences are way weaker than SW's ability to conjure shields out of nothing and his reaction time isn't enough to make up for that which is a huge, undeniable advantage to SW. The clear gap in raw power just clinches it.

Yeah true, Kurse flat out embarrassed Thor one of the most one sided fights in all of the MCU.

Wanda or nobody else have never lost that badly too my knowledge, but to be fair Thor was a b**** in TDW compared to other films) up until the final fight with Malekith.

Yeah, I kind of hate that scene. I get that Kurse is meant to be this mystically empowered Dark Elf that's far stronger than Thor but they should've had Thor use skill/lightning to make it a closer fight. Even if we still got the same outcome of Thor getting overpowered and then saved by Loki they could've made it less painfully one sided to watch.

 

[Pennywise]

Maw

 

[BigThor]

Yeah, I kind of hate that scene. I get that Kurse is meant to be this mystically empowered Dark Elf that's far stronger than Thor but they should've had Thor use skill/lightning to make it a closer fight. Even if we still got the same outcome of Thor getting overpowered and then saved by Loki they could've made it less painfully one sided to watch.

It's okay for Thor to lose to characters like Kurse who has historically given him hard times but he shouldn't have gotten beaten like a school girl. Thor's hand to hand skills (specifically head movement and footwork) seemed to go out the window and he never even attempted to call Mjolnir after it got knocked away the first time.

Even when Thor was losing to Hela he still looked like a great fighter, just less powerful and less experienced. The Kurse fight is just one of the many things that makes me hold a grudge towards Marvel S. for not giving TDW a couple more years of development.

 

[Batmannerism]

The thing with Wanda is that while her raw power feats are clearly high level powerhouse, she has no good combat feats against other powerhouses. In fact, she doesnt have any feats against power houses.

Only vs superhuman and and top tier levels. She also never has employeed mind control in combat. Sneaking up on Thor and the others is nice, but she needed to be close. And she hasnt done anything close to mind control in combat so there is nothing telling me she could employ it effectively in combat, or that she'd even attempt to. Tk and energy blasts are her MO in combat.

So what can she do before Maw's move? He's way quicker in combat speed and combat speed is a huge, undeniable advantage that those arguing Wanda have not acknowledged

Wanda's Feats against powerhouses and above;

Age of Ultron:

Tore through Vibranium, somewhat damaged) to rip out Ultron Prime's heart.

Successful use of mind control vs Hulk and Thor ( sneak attack or not, that's a feat)

Civil War:

One shots Vision,

Flattens Tony by dropping a bunch of cars on him - without killling him ( and that was in combat).

Do I need to bring up Thanos again? Given that she holds him off while blowing up the mind gem ( during which she lasts far longer against him than Cap, Falcon, War Machine, Groot and the Hulkbuster - who all get taken out almost immediately. I call that a feat.

What does she do against Maw ? Given that she can get a shield up fast enough to deflect bullets, instantly contain an explosion, protect herself during hand to hand and during falls, she's not going to struggle to stop his attacks.

Maw is more ruthless, but also overconfident to the point of stupidity, he stops during a fight to taunt his opponents, which is how Tony kills him.

Yeah, I don't see this going his way. But I'm in the minority here.

 

[Batmannerism]

It's okay for Thor to lose to characters like Kurse who has historically given him hard times but he shouldn't have gotten beaten like a school girl. Thor's hand to hand skills (specifically head movement and footwork) seemed to go out the window and he never even attempted to call Mjolnir after it got knocked away the first time.

Even when Thor was losing to Hela he still looked like a great fighter, just less powerful and less experienced. The Kurse fight is just one of the many things that makes me hold a grudge towards Marvel S. for not giving TDW a couple more years of development.

Actually I liked that Kurse was so dominant, its like he was Thor's kryptonite - his powers almost seemed specifically designed to defeat asgardian magic. Which is why Mjolnir was ineffective against him.

Not one of Thor's best moments, but it does build tension because until Loki triggers the grenade the audience doesnt know how Thor is going to survive.

I think people really underrate TDW.

 

[BigThor]

Wanda's Feats against powerhouses and above;

Age of Ultron:

Tore through Vibranium, somewhat damaged) to rip out Ultron Prime's heart.

Successful use of mind control vs Hulk and Thor ( sneak attack or not, that's a feat)

Civil War:

One shots Vision,

Flattens Tony by dropping a bunch of cars on him - without killling him ( and that was in combat).

Do I need to bring up Thanos again? Given that she holds him off while blowing up the mind gem ( during which she lasts far longer against him than Cap, Falcon, War Machine, Groot and the Hulkbuster - who all get taken out almost immediately. I call that a feat.

I agree on Wanda's feats, all of those are good feats no matter how you slice it. I had forgotten about her dropping all of those cars on Iron Man, which is odd since it was one of my favorite moments during the airport fight.

Actually I liked that Kurse was so dominant, its like he was Thor's kryptonite - his powers almost seemed specifically designed to defeat asgardian magic. Which is why Mjolnir was ineffective against him.

Not one of Thor's best moments, but it does build tension because until Loki triggers the grenade the audience doesnt know how Thor is going to survive.

I think people really underrate TDW.

I meant it's technically pretty comic book accurate as Kurse stomped Thor when they first fought in the comics as well.

TDW is not a bad film, as it is an under developed one that's why I said another year or two and it could've been a much better film.

 

[Yeahbuddy]

Gonna go with Wanda on this one, I think the fact that shes a powerhouse, you cant really "defend" against her magic and Maw is a glass canon gives her the edge. Her most notable feats are lifting those massive machines in the air (many many many tons), keeping Thanos at bay, destroying an Infinity Stone(this is huge) and sending Vision to the underground lol. If she pulls this on Maw he isnt surviving, whereas she can most likely break free of anything he throws at her with magic spam.

Honestly I dont see a winning case for Maw here.

 

[Batmannerism]

I agree on Wanda's feats, all of those are good feats no matter how you slice it. I had forgotten about her dropping all of those cars on Iron Man, which is odd since it was one of my favorite moments during the airport fight.



I meant it's technically pretty comic book accurate as Kurse stomped Thor when they first fought in the comics as well.

TDW is not a bad film, as it is an under developed one that's why I said another year or two and it could've been a much better film.

As I recall comic book Kurse was just insanely strong and durable - I think he could have probably stomped the Hulk.

Any indication for which match up will be next?

Why not keep in the Infinity War theme ?

Cull Obsidian vs Hulk ?

Corvus Glaive vs Black Panther ?

Vision vs Aunt May ( because after IW that doesn't seem so unfair - okay that's an exaggeration, but when I saw IW the 3rd time I was sure I heard a metallic voice in the cinema yell " I got destroyed by THAT GUY ?????" when Vision gets punked by Corvus, it could have been Ultron, who knows ?)

Okoye vs Black Widow ?

Nebula ( or Gamora) vs Proxima ?

Soooo many match ups just waiting to happen.....

 

[BigThor]

As I recall comic book Kurse was just insanely strong and durable - I think he could have probably stomped the Hulk.

Any indication for which match up will be next?

Why not keep in the Infinity War theme ?

Cull Obsidian vs Hulk ?

Corvus Glaive vs Black Panther ?

Vision vs Aunt May ( because after IW that doesn't seem so unfair - okay that's an exaggeration, but when I saw IW the 3rd time I was sure I heard a metallic voice in the cinema yell " I got destroyed by THAT GUY ?????" when Vision gets punked by Corvus, it could have been Ultron, who knows ?)

Okoye vs Black Widow ?

Nebula ( or Gamora) vs Proxima ?

Soooo many match ups just waiting to happen.....

I'm interested in Okoye Vs Widow and Cull Obsidian Vs Hulk

Yeah we're trying to get the new Infinity War characters placed and capitalize on the IW hype.

Falcon Vs Star Lord, Spider-Man Vs Drax, Corvus Glaive Vs Drax, or Proxima Midnight Vs Valkyrie

Corvus Glaive Vs Heimdall.......even Iron Man Vs War Machine

 

[Batmannerism]

I'm interested in Okoye Vs Widow and Cull Obsidian Vs Hulk

Yeah we're trying to get the new Infinity War characters placed and capitalize on the IW hype.

Falcon Vs Star Lord, Spider-Man Vs Drax, Corvus Glaive Vs Drax, or Proxima Midnight Vs Valkyrie

Corvus Glaive Vs Heimdall.......even Iron Man Vs War Machine

I like Star Lord v Falcon ! Spidey v Drax ....interesting.

Glaive v Drax.....also interesting, although I think there would be a big difference in result if they were unarmed.

How about Glaive vs Heimdall, great match up !

Proxima v Valkyrie would be interesting, although Val has a reasonable strength and durability advantage.

 

[Thör-El]

Actually I liked that Kurse was so dominant, its like he was Thor's kryptonite - his powers almost seemed specifically designed to defeat asgardian magic. Which is why Mjolnir was ineffective against him.

Not one of Thor's best moments, but it does build tension because until Loki triggers the grenade the audience doesnt know how Thor is going to survive.

I think people really underrate TDW.

Between depicting Malekith as a bland villain, the "we are not Gods" reluctance to show Thor as the cosmic God of Thunder he is in the comics, having Thor show no skill/forget about his lightning in the fight scenes, hit and miss humour and all the focus on Jane Foster and friends it ended up a disappointing film.
Sure it's no Iron Man 3 but it basically messed up in all the ways Ragnarok nailed it.

Any indication for which match up will be next?

Why not keep in the Infinity War theme ?

Cull Obsidian vs Hulk ?

Corvus Glaive vs Black Panther ?

Vision vs Aunt May ( because after IW that doesn't seem so unfair - okay that's an exaggeration, but when I saw IW the 3rd time I was sure I heard a metallic voice in the cinema yell " I got destroyed by THAT GUY ?????" when Vision gets punked by Corvus, it could have been Ultron, who knows ?)

Okoye vs Black Widow ?

Nebula ( or Gamora) vs Proxima ?

Soooo many match ups just waiting to happen.....

Hulk stomps Cull, Nebula stomps Proxima, Widow slightly outclasses Okoye and Glaive and his feat overpowering Cap plus his vibranium cutting spear make him almost perfectly designed to beat BP.

Personally I want to see Stormbreaker Thor vs Hela (or Ultron Prime, or Kurse), Black Widow vs Daredevil, Scarlet Witch vs Vision and Bleeding Edge Iron Man vs Hulkbuster (winner takes on Hulk)

 

[Batmannerism]

Between depicting Malekith as a bland villain, the "we are not Gods" reluctance to show Thor as the cosmic God of Thunder he is in the comics, having Thor show no skill/forget about his lightning in the fight scenes, hit and miss humour and all the focus on Jane Foster and friends it ended up a disappointing film.
Sure it's no Iron Man 3 but it basically messed up in all the ways Ragnarok nailed it.




Hulk stomps Cull, Nebula stomps Proxima, Widow slightly outclasses Okoye and Glaive and his feat overpowering Cap plus his vibranium cutting spear make him almost perfectly designed to beat BP.

Personally I want to see Stormbreaker Thor vs Hela (or Ultron Prime, or Kurse), Black Widow vs Daredevil, Scarlet Witch vs Vision and Bleeding Edge Iron Man vs Hulkbuster (winner takes on Hulk)

I can see Hulk beating Cull, mostly because he was such a one note henchman - even Kurse had way more personality. Hulk smash !

Not so sure Nebula would stomp Proxima, I think it would be quite close, but Nebula is about 99% machine and can suffer the loss of limbs without too much effect ( and has some self repair functions, eg in GOTG after Drax hit her with a Xandarian bazooka she wasn't down for long) - I think that would be the difference.

Widow v Okoye would also be close, but I suspect that Nat is more comfortable with killing her opponents and that + her skills would give her the edge.

Glaive's weapon would be a massive problem for BP - although BP's claws would even the odds a little.
Depending on the terrain, and other factors I probably have to give that one to Glaive.

We already know how Scarlet Witch vs Vision turns out, badly for Vision.

Stormbreaker Thor vs Hela would be a very close fight.

If it took place on Asgard I might give a slight edge to Hela - as she can take massive hits ( even being impaled by a sword) with no effect.

We know that Thor's lightning doesn't have a lot of effect on her - I disagree with those who say it knocked her out, we see her fall but there's no way to tell if she's conscious it not, and if she was KO'd why didn't Thor finish her off? And of course he literally says " it did nothing"

However Stormbreaker might actually be to harm her.

I think he would need to kill her outright, a headshot maybe, or she'd recover. Also we know that even though he's become stronger during Ragnarok, he's still vulnerable to her death blades - he could probably take a few of them, more than any other asgardian, but if she hits him enough times, he's dead.

Could she do to Stormbreaker what she did to Mjolnir ? She crushed it effortlessly and it was also forged at nivadellir.

I think that if the fight took place on Earth, where her powers weren't unlimited Thor would have a fighting chance though - much much closer than their Ragnarok fights.

However Ultron Prime would be a pretty quick fight. Thor is a lot stronger than he was in age of Ultron, and Stormbreaker appears to be a more powerful weapon. Can't see Ultron lasting very long.

Kurse is tricky, because his powers are like kryptonite to asgardians, he could smash right through Asgardian technology/magic and Mjolnir didnt faze him.

However he is vulnerable to cutting attacks with bladed weapons ( they dont hurt him, but penetrate his body) Maybe Thor could split his head open with Stormbreaker's blade ? Assuming Kurse hasnt grown in power as well, the upgraded Thor would have a much better chance.

Black Widow v Daredevil is really tough to call. Both are excellent fighters and really physically tough. I think the one decisive difference would be terrain, if Matt could fight her in the dark then he'd take her down.

Bleeding Edge Iron Man I think is too versatile for the Hulkbuster - but it also depends who's flying them. Tony vs Tony is.....tricky. Tony vs someone else, well he wins no matter what suit, as he knows their strengths and weaknesses.

Is it worth thinking about Punisher vs Winter Soldier?

 

[scarlet-witch]

You know I voted for my girl.

 

[BigThor]

!
Widow v Okoye would also be close, but I suspect that Nat is more comfortable with killing her opponents and that + her skills would give her the edge.

I give the edge to Okoye, she has vibranium weapons and is an elite Wakandan royal guard she's plenty comfortable killing.

We know that Thor's lightning doesn't have a lot of effect on her - I disagree with those who say it knocked her out, we see her fall but there's no way to tell if she's conscious it not, and if she was KO'd why didn't Thor finish her off? And of course he literally says " it did nothing"

A lot of people disagree with it but more facts point to it than the contrary, when he hit her with the lightning she flew off the balcony eyes closed and her body limp. Now if she wasn't knocked out, wouldn't she flail around trying to break or stop her fall as evidenced by her being able to flip herself right side up while being throw by Thor in Bifrost fight.

By "It didn't nothing" Thor was most likely saying she's still alive and completely healed in his eyes that would still be doing nothing since he was trying to KILL her (probably didn't try to finish her off because he thought she was dead).

Hela has an insane healing factor, but that doesn't mean she'll unable to be briefly KO'd. The script said she was KO'd and she was missing for a good portion after the blast, but most important she fell to the ground not moving. Did you see how Gamora flailed her limbs as she fell when Thanos threw her from that cliff, yeah that's what people do when they fall while conscious.

However Stormbreaker might actually be to harm her.

I think he would need to kill her outright, a headshot maybe, or she'd recover. Also we know that even though he's become stronger during Ragnarok, he's still vulnerable to her death blades - he could probably take a few of them, more than any other asgardian, but if she hits him enough times, he's dead.

Could she do to Stormbreaker what she did to Mjolnir ? She crushed it effortlessly and it was also forged at nivadellir.

I think that if the fight took place on Earth, where her powers weren't unlimited Thor would have a fighting chance though - much much closer than their Ragnarok fights.

No she couldn't do that to Stormbreaker, it was specifically stated to be the most powerful weapon in Asgard (above Gunjnir and Mjolnjr) and explicit stated to the the King's weapon. Mjonir was never stated to be all of that, logically it's even inferior to Gungnir since that was wielded by Odin and his father Bor as All Fathers (hmm wonder why they didn't wield Mjolnir).

She would lose on Earth, Asgard, and anywhere else, with Stormbreaker Thor was able to power through a beam of all 6 Infinity Stones from a full powered Infinity Gauntlet. C'mon now, Hela is tough but she's not THAT tough, she would get smashed she's a bit overrated imo. Stormbreaker has access to the bifrost (people seem to overlook that), if all else fails that's an easy path for victory.

Kurse is tricky, because his powers are like kryptonite to asgardians, he could smash right through Asgardian technology/magic and Mjolnir didnt faze him.

However he is vulnerable to cutting attacks with bladed weapons ( they dont hurt him, but penetrate his body) Maybe Thor could split his head open with Stormbreaker's blade ? Assuming Kurse hasnt grown in power as well, the upgraded Thor would have a much better chance.

He would get smashed worse than Hela, he'd get one shot actually I think King Thor beats everyone in the Transcendent tier.

Black Widow v Daredevil is really tough to call. Both are excellent fighters and really physically tough. I think the one decisive difference would be terrain, if Matt could fight her in the dark then he'd take her down.

Good fight, I think we already did this fight and Daredevil won.

Bleeding Edge Iron Man I think is too versatile for the Hulkbuster - but it also depends who's flying them. Tony vs Tony is.....tricky. Tony vs someone else, well he wins no matter what suit, as he knows their strengths and weaknesses.

For the sake of keeping things fair, we'll have Friday pilot both remotely so neither has an "operator" edge.

Is it worth thinking about Punisher vs Winter Soldier?

This is a good one, Punisher has more superior weapons but in hand to hand he gets his face broken by Winter Soldier.

I like this one though, this and Winter Soldier Vs Red Skull.