MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

[Spider-Aziz]

Ok.............this is kind of OT for me but it's something that has really bothered me. This is a comic book fight with the comic book counterparts.
Marvel universe Kingpin

Just put it with the other contest. But Kingpin has no powers but has routinely PHYSICALLY beaten Spider-Man

The 90s cartoon version is overpowered and has toppled Spider-Man physically more than once. In comics it's the other way around in physical confrontations save for one or two issues in the 1970s.

 

[Stormborn]

Cull Obsidian should win this. A good showing against Hulkbuster, getting the better of Bleeding Edge Iron Man (twice), grabbing Spidey out of the air, taking hits from Mjolnir etc is more impressive than a good showing against the relatively weak 2008 Hulk.

 

[Docker2.0]

Batman wins, no question for me.

He routinely fights people with super powers and wins - occasionally including Superman. Kingpin is still human ( a very strong and tough human, but only human) - the bit in the Spider verse film where he kills Spider Man with his bare hands is just crap - if Spidey is strong enough to lift a truck ( which means his bones/muscles etc are super tough) the KP shouldn't be able to hurt him that much with just his strength alone.

On a purely physical level Kingpin is stronger and more durable than Batman, but Batman is probably at least if not more skilled, a better tactician and cheats by using gadgets.

At the end of the day a human body is a human body - Kingpin has the same weak points the rest of us have, ( kneejoints, noses, eyes, eardrums etc) and while his massive size protects some of them ( like his carotid arteries to some degree) Batman is a master of using those weak points and hurting people.

Kingpin has beaten a weakened Daredevil but has he ever beaten Matt at full health ? Same with Spider Man ?

No my friend. Kingpin didn't just beat Spidey in into the Spideyverse. He has beaten him on a few occasions. and the Batman beating Superman is BS and always uses the Kryptonite thing. When he beats Zod, then I'm impressed. Kingpin has beaten numerous powered heroes, which I don't get but it's true. If he can catch Spiderman who is way faster than Batman, then you would think Batman would be no problem. But Batman has gadgets and all. IDK man......it just always bothered me. This doesn't count, it's just an OT thing for me.

 

[Docker2.0]

The 90s cartoon version is overpowered and has toppled Spider-Man physically more than once. In comics it's the other way around in physical confrontations save for one or two issues in the 1970s.

He beat him in the comics as as well.

 

[Docker2.0]

As far as Cull vs Abomination, I'm going Abomination. He's a soldier who seems stronger than the Hulk. We never saw Hulk and Cull go at it so we don't know how he matches up with the Hulk but the only thing I can see that gives Cull the advantage is his weapon. But I'm not sure how that would hold up against someone like Hulk or Abomination.

 

[Stormborn]

In the comics, Kingpin's just a strong/skilled human. He isn't in the same league as Spider-Man and only survives fights with him because Peter pulls his punches.

Source: Back In Black

He can give Daredevil (an extremely skilled human martial artist) a good fight but he usually loses. A fight against Batman (another extremely skilled human martial artist) would be similar.

Some adaptations of Kingpin (Into the Spider Verse, Spider-Man PS4) seem to have low level super strength so they'd probably stand a better chance. My bet would still be on the guy who routinely fights Bane and Killer Croc though.

 

[Docker2.0]

 

[Docker2.0]

Fight ends in a 2-2 draw. Next up:

Captain Marvel

Vs Vision

Who you got peeps?

 

[Luigi]

Vision

Close one but if Vision actually manages to fight smart, he would be able to phase inside Carol and end her right away. However, as seen in previous films, he's not the best tactician when it comes to fights.

 

[Bayne]

I agree. If Vision uses the phasing properly, that should be the end of it.

 

[Stormborn]

I vote Captain Marvel.

• Carol has comparable strength to Thanos, a guy who was able to casually pull the mind stone out of Vision's vibranium forehead.
• She's durable enough to no sell hits from Thanos, fly straight through spaceships and survive a blast from the power stone. Vision hits hard but not that hard.
• Similarly powerful ranged attacks (shooting down Kree ships vs helping Thor/Iron Man to melt vibranium Ultron)
• Way faster flight speed (out of atmosphere, she can reach light speed).

As others have said, Vision's main advantage is phasing. He could definitely use it to survive Carol's attacks and try to reason with her but I'm not convinced it gives him a way to hurt her.

 

[jolldan]

Imagine Carol as the Ultron Bot

Vision for the win

 

[Batmannerism]

I vote Captain Marvel.

• Carol has comparable strength to Thanos, a guy who was able to casually pull the mind stone out of Vision's vibranium forehead.
• She's durable enough to no sell hits from Thanos, fly straight through spaceships and survive a blast from the power stone. Vision's hits hard but not that hard.
• Similarly powerful ranged attacks (shooting down Kree ships vs helping Thor/Iron Man to melt vibranium Ultron)
• Way faster flight speed (out of atmosphere, she can reach light speed).

As others have said, Vision's main advantage is phasing. He could definitely use it to survive Carol's attacks and try to reason with her but I'm not convinced it gives him a way to hurt her.

I don't see Vision as quite on Carol's level. Even with the mind stone he wasn't that impressive.

Would his phrasing protect him from the full force of Carol's blasts ? If he tried to Duke it out with her he'd get smacked down - Thanos was pretty beat up when he fought Carol but she was able to push him back, which is impressive.

Sooner or later I think Carol would simply overpower Vision. Carol wins.

 

[Stormborn]

Imagine Carol as the Ultron Bot

Vision for the win

That trick works against Ultron Bots that even Hawkeye and Black Widow were casually taking down.

I'm not sure what would happen if Vision tried to phase inside of a character like Carol who's at least as durable as him.

I think there's a reason he didn't try this trick against the Vibranium Ultron.

 

[jolldan]

That trick works against Ultron Bots that even Hawkeye and Black Widow were casually taking down.

I'm not sure what would happen if Vision tried to materialise inside of a character even more durable than him.

I presume there's a reason he didn't try this trick against the Vibranium Ultron.

There is no evidence to suggest Vision can't do this though.

He has phased through walls, Ultron bots, people nothing has been shown to be able to hinder that ability in any way other than Corvus glaive.

I could even see the argument that due to her Kree altered physiology he potentially couldn't rip her apart like the bot but a fist through the heart is still gonna get the job done relatively easy.

Honestly I think phasing is one of those super OP abilities when you really think about its applications they are near endless. Much like Wanda's powers I think this is why the MCU has always held back on using it too much as you risk making Vision seem too powerful.

 

[Stormborn]

There is no evidence to suggest Vision can't do this though.

He has phased through walls, Ultron bots, people nothing has been shown to be able to hinder that ability in any way other than Corvus glaive.

I'm not questioning Vision's ability to phase through things. I agree he could phase to avoid Carol's punches etc but putting an arm through her chest and turning tangible again is a whole different ball game.

Vision has only ever done this against the Ultron Bot in your gif and there must be an in universe reason why he didn't try it against the far more durable Vibranium Ultron (e.g. he can't materialise inside opponents that durable or perhaps he can but he'd lose his arm if he tried it).

And like I said, Carol is more durable than Vision. She's tough enough to no sell hits from Thanos and survive a blast from the power stone.

 

[jolldan]

I'm not questioning Vision's ability to phase through things. I agree he could phase to avoid Carol's punches etc but putting an arm through her chest and turning tangible again is a whole different ball game.

Vision has only ever done this against the Ultron Bot in your gif and there must be an in universe reason why he didn't try it against the far more durable Vibranium Ultron (e.g. he can't materialise inside opponents that durable or perhaps he can but he'd lose his arm if he tried it).

And like I said, Carol is more durable than Vision. She's tough enough to no sell hits from Thanos and survive a blast from the power stone.

Why though? Don't get me wrong we can disagree on who wins I just can't think of anything we have seen that suggests Carol could do anything other than turn tail and run to avoid a phase attack.

That exact motion yes but he's phased through multiple different other structures, weapons and even people, nothing suggests he couldn't do this to Carol if he wanted.

Yeah I always surmised a lot of that to be down to her energy absorbing powers here however it isn't a force of energy for her to contend with or absorb its just a direct blunt force.

 

[Stormborn]

I think there's a huge distinction between

1. Vision phasing through things and remaining intangible the entire time (something Vision's done to go through walls, avoid attacks from Hawkeye, get past Giant Man etc)
2. Vision phasing partway through an enemy then turning tangible again to tear them apart from the inside (an attack Vision's only ever used against a lowly Ultron bot).

Vision never tried a phase attack against vibranium Ultron even though he had no reason to hold back. That suggests to me that it wouldn't work against a strong/highly durable enemy.

And I still think Carol is just straight up more durable than Vision.

 

[jolldan]

I think there's a huge distinction between

1. Vision phasing through things and remaining intangible the entire time (something Vision's done to go through walls, avoid attacks from Hawkeye, get past Giant Man etc)
2. Vision phasing partway through an enemy then turning tangible again to tear them apart from the inside (an attack Vision's only ever used against a lowly Ultron bot).

Vision never tried a phase attack against vibranium Ultron even though he had no reason to hold back. That suggests to me that it wouldn't work against a strong/highly durable enemy.

And I still think Carol is just straight up more durable than Vision.

They are never gonna show Vision Reverse Flashing someone in a Disney movie c'mon lol that's why you've only ever got it on the bot. Robot is not alive meaning nobody cares about it.

I don't know just seems odd to assume something can't be done because it wasn't used in a specific instance. Like I would say Vision would need his phasing to beat Carol where as he never really did need that to beat Ultron, his body and the mind stone looked enough for him to match him.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Phasing through can help him win, but Vision is not a violent robot, unless he's shooting deadly beams at his friends who are wanted at one point.

But I'll give Carol the win here, she's way too powerful to lose, and probably faced aliens who can phase through the way Vision does in her travels.

 

[Batmannerism]

Phasing through can help him win, but Vision is not a violent robot, unless he's shooting deadly beams at his friends who are wanted at one point.

But I'll give Carol the win here, she's way too powerful to lose, and probably faced aliens who can phase through the way Vision does in her travels.

Totally Agree ! After Age of Ultron Vision, for all his power was almost more of a liability to his friends than an asset.

Success against Ultron drones ( whom Black Widow and Hawkeye took down easily) does not equate to success against the MCU's version of Superman.

 

[Docker2.0]

Totally Agree ! After Age of Ultron Vision, for all his power was almost more of a liability to his friends than an asset.

Success against Ultron drones ( whom Black Widow and Hawkeye took down easily) does not equate to success against the MCU's version of Superman.

Whoa man! Let's not go there! Thor is Marvel's Superman. She is Marvel's Wonder Woman.

 

[Stormborn]

Whoa man! Let's not go there! Thor is Marvel's Superman. She is Marvel's Wonder Woman.

Depends on how you look at it.

Thor was created by Stan Lee to be Marvel's answer to Superman and they're usually portrayed as the most powerful heroes in the Avengers/Justice League respectively.

In terms of story though, Superman and Captain Marvel are both wholesome American heroes wearing red and blue with alien powers of flight, super durability, energy blasts etc.

Meanwhile, Thor and Wonder Woman are both gods with magic weaponry who were raised to be master combatants by immortal warrior races and regularly fight monsters from ancient mythology.

 

[Batmannerism]

Depends on how you look at it.

Thor was created by Stan Lee to be Marvel's answer to Superman and they're usually portrayed as the most powerful heroes in the Avengers/Justice League respectively.

In terms of story though, Superman and Captain Marvel are both wholesome American heroes wearing red and blue with alien powers of flight, super durability, energy blasts etc.

Meanwhile, Thor and Wonder Woman are both gods with magic weaponry who were raised to be master combatants by immortal warrior races and regularly fight monsters from ancient mythology.

All of that and also Captain Marvel occupies the same deus ex machina role that Superman often fulfils in JL stories. When CM grapples with a Thanos it reminded me of some Superman vs Darkseid panels I've seen.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'm going Captain Marvel. Vision is a pacifist. I don't see him stopping Carol that way. And with my vote, we end with a 3-3 tie. Next up:

Bucky, Cap, Falcon, and Black Widow

Vs. The GotG


Who you got peeps?