Laura still feels like a Wolverine clone to me, no matter how great her story is in the comics. Featuring her before The Wolverine in a movie is like featuring Miles Morales before Peter Parker, Kamala Khan before the more important Ms. Marvel and obviously those didn't happen under Marvel Studios.
I'm not even a big Wolverine fan, well I'm not a fan. But I just don't see Marvel Studios sidelining the Wolverine for his clone/legacy character. Imo, focus on the other X-Men first, not Wolverine and his clones.
You don't need Laura to be wolverine-lite just to differeniate from what came before in the Fox version. Making Logan more faithful to his comic image will be enough to distant themselves from Hugh Jackmans version without jumping straight to Laura. Afterall, X23 is just a female copycat of a more popular, original male character and could do without them tbh.
Yes, because Marvel is known for their habit of making decisions dictated by "what the fans want". If that was their guiding strategy, we wouldn't be getting movies for Eternals or Shang-Chi.
They will do whatever they think is best for the story they are telling. And if that means making Laura the main protagonist of their new Wolverine franchise (A move that will not only clearly distinguish their movies from Jackman's and also guarantee persistent media frenzy around the project) then that's what they'll do. What any of us want is irrelevent.
Wont. Happen. No way.
Persistent media frenzy? More like negative publicity. Passing the mantle might happen down the line, but logan as wolverine is ESSENTIAL.
Feige takes risks, but never like that.
Lets revisit this once they actually cast wolverine for mcu.
X-Men: Grand Design
directed by The Duffer Brothers (Stranger Things)
Dr. Charles Xavier is a world-renowned geneticist and foremost expert on the super-powered community. Unbeknownst to his audiences, Xavier is also secretly the world’s most powerful mutant. The Xavier Home for the Gifted in San Francisco serves as a foster home of sorts to the troubled members of the X-Men—teens and young adults from across the globe struggling to come to terms with their emerging powers and identities. Mutants are a hidden population, small enough to be relegated to simple rumors and tabloid fodder (with occasional help via Xavier's telepathic tampering or 'digital ghosting' courtesy of Forge).
When the smooth-talking Gambit crosses paths with Marrow and is brought to the secret labyrinth of The Morlocks beneath the streets of New York City, a grand scheme dating back to the 90s along the shores of Alaska amongst the wreckage of the Summers’ private plane, and even further back to the forgotten days of Victorian Age England, is unveiled.
Nathaniel Essex sees himself as an engineer of evolution—advancing the progressive mutant genes he deems fit while eradicating those that fail to enhance the human race in his sinister experimentations. After crossing paths with a power beyond understanding in his youth as a professor of Darwinism, Essex is forever changed and sets on a path to become more than just a casual observer of history but instead as a curator of the evolutionary chain.
The X-Men will uncover secrets of their own past, and race to thwart Sinister’s machinations—proving that they’re more than just their powers. And in a world from which they hide in fear of oppression, the X-Men will discover the strength to be their own agents of evolution & destiny, bridging the gap between human & mutant.
post credit a:
Sinister, reeling from his loss at the hands of the X-Men, begins work on an infant clone (we know this to be Nate Grey). He is preparing for the “second coming” of En Sabah Nur...and he’ll be ready.
post credit b:
In a secret New Mexico military installation, we see government agents reviewing intelligence reports & images of the Morlock Massacre and Xavier Home in San Francisco. Enter Justin Hammer, who throws down a new file: PROJECT WIDEAWAKE.
This should be a film about celebrating ones' uniqueness and highlighting the family bonds of the X-Men through their diverse backgrounds:
Cyclops' family was ripped away at young age due to circumstances he doesn't quite understand (we later learn this was orchestrated by Sinister to provide the impetus for Scott's raw power to reveal itself). With Xavier's help, he'll find a new family among the X-Men.
Storm, a runway and no stranger to fighting on the streets of Cairo for food & survival, sees commonality with the Morlocks and realizes her potential as a leader amongst her peers.
Rogue has touched the uglier sides of life, and shuts herself off from the world. It isn't until a sweet-talking Cajun with a dark past all his own enters the picture that Rogue finds her place back in the world.
Forge is a walking dichotomy--reveling in his scientific genius while still honoring the traditions of his Native America ancestors. His tech should have as style that will distinguish itself in the greater MCU.
Iceman is coming to terms with his mutancy and his life as a young gay man. We watch his journey as he learns to embrace his power and ascend from snowman Bobby to Omega-level status we've seen in the comics.
Jean Grey is the heart of the team, shutting off her own traumas and opening her heart and mind up to those around her.
And lastly, there's Marrow, who's anger for the surface world blinds her judgement. When her mother figure, Callisto, is killed by Sinister's forces, Marrow must come to grips with her new reality and become an X-Man.
This film would serve as launchpad for the MCU X-Men and its various sequels, spinoffs, & Disney+ series and differentiating from previous iterations, all the while introducing some key elements of classic X-lore:
Sinister, his Marauders, & the Morlock Massacre
The X-Men's San Francisco home location
Krakoa as Sinister's genetically-modified island fortress (which would later be repurposed in sequels as X-Men's Utopia after Jean connects with its newly-sentient mind & releases the island from Sinister’s snare)
Storm assuming leadership of the Morlocks following Callisto's death
Sentinels & Project Wideawake that is tied to the greater MCU
No Wolverine! No Magneto! yet.
It's not a fan cast thread, but feel free to take a look at my choices--some, I know, are quite unconventional. That being said, the X-Men lend themselves to being updated with the times (i.e. Gambit, yes, I know his traditional appearance & look that originated in the 90s, but today's sense of "cool" could be interpreted in a number of a ways with the character still being 100% authentically Gambit)
And we know that Marvel isn't afraid at a little freshening up of the source material...
x-men.
Professor Xavier: David Oyelowo, 43 Yes--let's cast the actor known for portraying MLK in Selma as Marvel's very own Dr. King!
X-Men: Grand Design
directed by The Duffer Brothers (Stranger Things)
Dr. Charles Xavier is a world-renowned geneticist and foremost expert on the super-powered community. Unbeknownst to his audiences, Xavier is also secretly the world’s most powerful mutant. The Xavier Home for the Gifted in San Francisco serves as a foster home of sorts to the troubled members of the X-Men—teens and young adults from across the globe struggling to come to terms with their emerging powers and identities. Mutants are a hidden population, small enough to be relegated to simple rumors and tabloid fodder (with occasional help via Xavier's telepathic tampering or 'digital ghosting' courtesy of Forge).
When the smooth-talking Gambit crosses paths with Marrow and is brought to the secret labyrinth of The Morlocks beneath the streets of New York City, a grand scheme spanning back to the shores of Alaska amongst the wreckage of the Summers’ private plane, and even the forgotten days of Victorian Age England, is unveiled.
Nathaniel Essex sees himself as an engineer of evolution—advancing progressive mutant genes he deems fit and eradicating those that fail to enhance the human race in his sinister experimentations. After crossing paths with a power beyond understanding in his youth as a professor of Darwinism, Essex is forever changed and sets on a quest to be more than just a casual observer of history but instead a curator of the evolutionary chain.
The X-Men will uncover secrets of their own past, and race to thwart Sinister’s machinations—proving that they’re more than just their powers and in a world from which they hide in fear of oppression, the X-Men will discover the strength to be their own agents of evolution, bridging the gap between human & mutant.
post credit a:
Sinister, reeling from his loss at the hands of the X-Men, begins work on an infant clone (we know this to be Nate Grey). He is preparing for the “second coming” of En Sabah Nur...and he’ll be ready.
post credit b:
In a secret New Mexico military installation, we see government agents reviewing intelligence reports & images of the Morlock Massacre and Xavier Home in San Francisco. Enter Justin Hammer, who throws down a new file: PROJECT WIDEAWAKE.
This should be a film about celebrating ones' uniqueness and highlighting the family bonds of the X-Men through their diverse backgrounds:
Cyclops' family was ripped away at young age due to circumstances he doesn't quite understand (we later learn this was orchestrated by Sinister to provide the impetus for Scott's raw power to reveal itself). With Xavier's help, he'll find a new family among the X-Men.
Storm, a runway and no stranger to fighting on the streets of Cairo for food & survival, sees commonality with the Morlocks and realizes her potential as a leader amongst her peers.
Rogue has touched the uglier sides of life, and shuts herself away from the world. It isn't until a sweet-talking Cajun with a dark past all his own enters the picture that Rogue finds her place back in the world.
Forge is a walking dichotomy--reveling in his scientific genius while still honoring the traditions of his Native America ancestors. His tech should have as style that will distinguish itself in the greater MCU.
Iceman is coming to terms with his mutancy and his life as a young gay man. We watch his journey as he learns to embrace his power and ascend from snowman Bobby to Omega-level status we've seen in the comics.
Jean Grey is the heart of the team, shutting off her own traumas and opening her heart and mind up to those around her.
And lastly, there's Marrow, who's anger for the surface world blinds her judgement. When her mother figure, Callisto, is killed by Sinister's forces, Marrow must come to grips with her new reality and become an X-Man.
This film would serve as launchpad for the MCU X-Men and its various sequels, spinoffs, & Disney+ series and differentiating from previous iterations, all the while introducing some key elements of classic X-lore:
Sinister, his Marauders, & the Morlock Massacre
The X-Men's San Francisco home location
Krakoa as Sinister's genetically-modified island fortress (which would later be repurposed in sequels as X-Men's Utopia)
Storm assuming leadership of the Morlocks following Callisto's death
Sentinels & Project Wideawake that is tied to the greater MCU
No Wolverine! No Magneto! yet.
It's not a fan cast thread, but feel free to take a look at my choices--some, I know, are quite unconventional. That being said, the X-Men lend themselves to being updated with the times (i.e. Gambit, yes, I know his traditional appearance & look that originated in the 90s, but today's sense of "cool" could be interpreted in a number of a ways with the character still being 100% authentically Gambit)
And we know that Marvel isn't afraid at a little freshening up of the source material...
x-men.
Professor Xavier: David Oyelowo, 43 Yes--let's cast the actor known for portraying MLK in Selma as Marvel's very own Dr. King!
I really like a lot of these ideas. Namely the school reinvention, the San Francisco relocating and the collective arc and theme of the movie about "Finding yourself" and outcasts celebrating their differences.
But I think there's a lot going on in your pitch. A lot of wheels and cogs that are turning in your plot, with several major story arcs mashed into one film + the character development and arcs required for each individual X-Man and Morlocks + Exposition dumps that will inevitably be required for Sinister, in order for his plan to make sense. It will take a talented writer(s) to condense all of that into a streamlined narrative- otherwise we could end up with the 'The Amazing Spider-Man 2' of the X-Men in their first outing.
Not saying it can't be done, but you're going to need experienced writers who know what they're doing. It's a lot to juggle in the introduction of the X-Men but I think hiring the Duffer Brothers is a great first step to making a complex plot like this work
I really like a lot of these ideas. Namely the school reinvention, the San Francisco relocating and the collective arc and theme of the movie about "Finding yourself" and outcasts celebrating their differences.
But I think there's a lot going on in your pitch. A lot of wheels and cogs that are turning in your plot, with several major story arcs mashed into one film + the character development and arcs required for each individual X-Man and Morlocks + Exposition dumps that will inevitably be required for Sinister, in order for his plan to make sense. It will take a talented writer(s) to condense all of that into a streamlined narrative- otherwise we could end up with the 'The Amazing Spider-Man 2' of the X-Men in their first outing.
Not saying it can't be done, but you're going to need experienced writers who know what they're doing. It's a lot to juggle in the introduction of the X-Men but I think hiring the Duffer Brothers is a great first step to making a complex plot like this work
Of course, it's just an outline, but I think a lot of the aforementioned plot--and perhaps even related exposition--can double as character-growing moments. I wouldn't liken this to Amazing Spider-Man 2, but instead perhaps Spider-Man: Homecoming. I know that people tend to use that jokingly as a reference point for MCU adaptations, but it really did manage to squeeze a whole lot into a digestible film.
- 5 Villains (Vulture, Shocker, Tinkerer, Scorpion, Prowler)
- 2 Heroes (Spider-Man, Iron Man)
- Civil War fall-out
- Multiple locations (NYC, New Jersey, Washington DC, Europe--briefly)
- And a littany of inter-personal relationships & drama amongst the primary players, in addition to Aunt May, Happy, MJ, Ned, Liz, etc.
Not all character arcs have to be resolved & fully fleshed out in the first film, but the team should be equally represented.
Of course, it's just an outline, but I think a lot of the aforementioned plot--and perhaps even related exposition--can double as character-growing moments. I wouldn't liken this to Amazing Spider-Man 2, but instead perhaps Spider-Man: Homecoming. I know that people tend to use that jokingly as a reference point for MCU adaptations, but it really did manage to squeeze a whole lot into a digestible film.
- 5 Villains (Vulture, Shocker, Tinkerer, Scorpion, Prowler)
- 2 Heroes (Spider-Man, Iron Man)
- Civil War fall-out
- Multiple locations (NYC, New Jersey, Washington DC, Europe--briefly)
- And a littany of inter-personal relationships & drama amongst the primary players, in addition to Aunt May, Happy, MJ, Ned, Liz, etc.
Not all character arcs have to be resolved & fully fleshed out in the first film, but the team should be equally represented.
That's true to an extent but what also has to be taken into account is that the X-Men movie will have wayyy more on it's plate than Homecoming ever did, just based on principle alone.
You have to establish:
- Mutants- and the sociopolitical effects that their existence will have on the entire MCU. You also have to clearly define what a "mutant" means in the context of the MCU
- The X-Men as an ensemble which consists of 5+ central protagonists, all of whom have to have some type of arc
- Their setting/base of operations which if it has pre-existing history, will have to to be fleshed out through exposition. And depending on how long that is, could also be a taxing process.
If throw in Sinister + his chess game with Apocalypse, as the main villain-- The Marauders (6 villains) as supporting antagonists, the introduction of Callisto/Morlocks (6 main supporting characters), the Mutant Massacre storyline and the death of Callisto (in the same movie she is introduced) then Marrow's subsequent grief which has no time to be built off of a relationship with Callisto and journey towards the X-Men & finally, Storm becoming the leader of the Morlocks-- all of that is integral to the main plot. You also throw in: Rogue's redemption story, Gambit's joining the X-Men, as subplots and a movie like this could very easily become jumbled and unfocused. With too many plot threads and character threads, some of which, as you said, will be left unresolved as a result.
Part of the reason why Homecoming was so easy to follow is because all of the main plot threads (Civil War, Iron Man, Vulture and his gang) were extensions of pre-established storyline in the MCU. Threads which were already fleshed out and developed in prior movies. And Homecoming was self-contained movie about a singularly protagonist's coming of age story.
Whereas the first X-Men movie Is setting up a major part of the MCU going forward. I'm not saying your pitch can't work on any level but it will have to be handled with care.
Mutant Massacre imo is definite sequel material imo
That's true to an extent but what also has to be taken into account is that the X-Men movie will have wayyy more on it's plate than Homecoming ever did, just based on principle alone.
You have to establish:
- Mutants- and the sociopolitical effects that their existence will have on the entire MCU. You also have to clearly define what a "mutant" means in the context of the MCU
- The X-Men as an ensemble which consists of 5+ central protagonists, all of whom have to have some type of arc
- Their setting/base of operations which if it has pre-existing history, will have to to be fleshed out through exposition. And depending on how long that is, could also be a taxing process.
If throw in Sinister + his chess game with Apocalypse, as the main villain-- The Marauders (6 villains) as supporting antagonists, the introduction of Callisto/Morlocks (6 main supporting characters), the Mutant Massacre storyline and the death of Callisto (in the same movie she is introduced) then Marrow's subsequent grief which has no time to be built off of a relationship with Callisto and journey towards the X-Men & finally, Storm becoming the leader of the Morlocks-- all of that is integral to the main plot. You also throw in: Rogue's redemption story, Gambit's joining the X-Men, as subplots and a movie like this could very easily become jumbled and unfocused. With too many plot threads and character threads, some of which, as you said, will be left unresolved as a result.
Part of the reason why Homecoming was so easy to follow is because all of the main plot threads (Civil War, Iron Man, Vulture and his gang) were extensions of pre-established storyline in the MCU. Threads which were already fleshed out and developed in prior movies. And Homecoming was self-contained movie about a singularly protagonist's coming of age story.
Whereas the first X-Men movie Is setting up a major part of the MCU going forward. I'm not saying your pitch can't work on any level but it will have to be handled with care.
Mutant Massacre imo is definite sequel material imo
The entire socio-political effect of the existence of mutants? We’re talking about the same film franchise that explained away The Blip in a high school morning announcements segment, right? Where are those ramifications— still to come? And the years-long journey to Professor Hulk retold over pancakes and sausages? I love the Marvel films and what they capture on camera, don’t get me wrong, but I think we fans tend to overthink some of the minutia on these boards (and rightfully so; we’re fans after all!). We didn’t really discuss the effects of superhero-ing until Civil War—arguably an X-Men vs Avengers film would be a similarly well-suited film to tackle these more nuanced political debates that the X-Men mythology inspires.
What needs to be established about where the X-Men live & operate? Only Black Panther got a significant amount of time to develop Wakanda (in the character’s second appearance, mind you). We see Tony’s house through the plot of the action in IM1 (intro to JARVIS, garage & hologram tech, his dummy robot, etc). Couldn't an X-film operate in this way as well, by introducing elements of the mansion piece-by-piece? (Cerebro, Danger Room, Forge tech—it needn’t all be there right off the bat)
And just like MCU Spider-Man fans, there’s a level of familiarity now with “mutants” and “X-Men” in the general public that buys the filmmakers some leeway and creative freedoms...we didn’t see a spider bite or Uncle Ben mugging again, do we need to explain the Xavier mansion, or the subbasement; or can we simply be introduced to it in the story and carry onward? Moving from NY to SF is just a cosmetic change essentially.
I agree that some X-Men stuff can be dense and, when possible, MCU should adapt and streamline, just as they’ve been doing since Iron Man’s origin in 2008.
The Marauders needn’t focus on 6 characters. Highlight Sinister and Gambit’s status as a double-agent, and use Sabretooth as a physical threat (and one to tease the audience with future appearances of his famous clawed brother). Think of STRIKE from Winter Soldier; do you know anyone outside of Pierce, Rumlow, & Sitwell? Surely there’s more than 3 members. The Marauders have plenty of cannon fodder mutants to bolster action sequences (and, no, I’m not talking about taking well-known fan fave mutants like Lady Deathstrike or Juggernaut, or Psylocke and turning them into mute henchmen like the Fox films, but not every mutant on screen need a fully realized story...is there even a fan base for characters like Harpoon or Vertigo or Blockbuster here?).
GOTG had 5 main characters who came together as a family by the end of the film with their own character development. Continuing that comparison, consider the Morlocks on the same footing as the NOVA corps in terms of screen time—you even have additional time dedicated to the The Collector and his world on Knowwhere, and of course the MCU world building in his exposition as well as the Thanos scenes. And the Ravagers. And, keep in mind that GOTG had nothing recognizable to audiences, so it all had to be delivered with meaty exposition and explained, which X-Men won’t be fully saddled with.
The X-Men franchise should hit the ground running; we don’t need to be fearful of including too much too soon—there are plenty of sequels and new projects that will be announced, both X-Men and X-adjacent, that will be more than enough to satisfy these emerging plot threads. We had Cap wake up out of the ice and his next solo movie was Winter Soldier, Quicksilver came and went in 1 movie, Jane Foster is already assuming the mantle of Thor after 2 minor appearances—we know that the MCU moves full steam ahead.
Fox was very conservative with these characters and we should hope the MCU doesn’t follow that formula
Wont. Happen. No way.
Persistent media frenzy? More like negative publicity. Passing the mantle might happen down the line, but logan as wolverine is ESSENTIAL.
Feige takes risks, but never like that.
Lets revisit this once they actually cast wolverine for mcu.
Negative publicity from who? The same trolls who thought they would sink Captain Marvel because of "negative publicity" from Brie's comments? I'm sure they're REALLY CONCERNED about angering that crowd again. In fact, them being angry is typically a sign Marvel has done something right. This move would guarantee huge press coverage for an otherwise low-key reboot. It's a win/win for Marvel.
Also, let's note that no one is suggesting Logan wouldn't be in this movie. In this scenario, he would be more similar of a role to Hank Pym in the Ant-Man franchise. I would imagine a solo movie featuring Laura hunting down her "father" to discover the truth about her past and them having to team up to stop a threat.
The entire socio-political effect of the existence of mutants? We’re talking about the same film franchise that explained away The Blip in a high school morning announcements segment, right? Where are those ramifications? Still to come? And the years-long journey to Professor Hulk over pancakes and sausages? I love the Marvel films and what they capture on camera, don’t get me wrong, but I think we fans tend to overthink some of the minutia on these boards (and rightfully so; we’re fans after all!). We didn’t really discuss the effects of superhero-ing until Civil War—arguably an X-Men vs Avengers film would be a similarly well-suited film to tackle these more nuanced political debates that the X-Men mythology inspires.
The Spider-Man films in the MCU have a very specific tone and the story that Watts and co wanted to tell did not call for the movie to tackle the emotional fallout of the "Blip", even if it should have. They actively avoid drama and serious emotional pathos (Uncle Ben was a direct casualty of this) so unless X-Men has a similar framework for storytelling, where jokes and humor are a substitute for drama, I don't think we should apply that movie to the X-Men. At least I hope not.
The reason why everybody overthinks the ramifications of mutants existing in the MCU is because it's a huge portion of the Marvel Universe that has been absent for 11 years being weaved back into the narrative. And with the Mutants comes a complete redefining in the MCU about everything it means to be "superhuman'; what it means to have amazing abilities. And of course, how humanity reacts to this. Their existence introduces a new type of conflict into the MCU- where a subgroup of thousands upon millions of super powered individuals are hunted, feared and hated by both the general populace and those in power. Major MCU players are going to be involved in this conflict for that reason.
What needs to be established about where the X-Men live & operate? Only Black Panther got a significant amount of time to develop Wakanda. We see Tony’s house through the plot of the action in IM1 (intro to JARVIS, garage & hologram tech, his dummy robot, etc). Couldn't an X-film operate in this way as well, by introducing elements of the mansion piece-by-piece? (Cerebro, Danger Room, Forge tech—it needn’t all be there right off the bat)
And just like MCU Spider-Man fans, there’s a level of familiarity now with “mutants” and “X-Men” in the general public that buys the filmmakers some leeway and creative freedoms...we didn’t see a spider bite or Uncle Ben mugging again, do we need to explain the Xavier mansion, or the subbasement; or can we simply be introduced to it in the story and carry onward? Moving from NY to SF is just a cosmetic change essentially.
I'm talking about moreso the X-Mansion existing prior to the film's introduction of it. If the X-Men have been around for a minute, then their absence will have to be explained. The MCU started Spider-Man 6 months in his superhero profession with zero significant experience. And I'd argue that trying to do an origin story for the X-Men on top of everything else proposed would also be difficult
The Marauders needn’t focus on 6 characters. Highlight Sinister and Gambit’s status as a double-agent, and use Sabretooth as a physical threat (and one to tease the audience with future appearances of his famous clawed brother). Think of STRIKE from Winter Soldier; do you know anyone outside of Pierce, Rumlow, & Sitwell? Surely there’s more than 3 members. The Marauders have plenty of cannon fodder mutants to bolster action sequences (and, no, I’m not talking about taking well-known fan fave mutants like Lady Deathstrike or Juggernaut, or Psylocke and turning them into mute henchmen like the Fox films, but not every mutant on screen need a fully realized story...is there even a fan base for characters like Harpoon or Vertigo or Blockbuster here?).
That's fair but 3 of the 4 main characters in TWS (Cap, Bucky, Natasha) were already established in prior films, lifting that burden off the writers' shoulders. They didn't adapt 'The Winter Soldier' in Cap's first movie. Sure, it wouldn't have been impossible but Marvel Studios realized that that story does not work without prior emotional investment in Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes' relationship. Mutant Massacre is a catharsis of events that works best with buildup. It's one of the heaviest, darkest X-Men stories for a reason
GOTG had 5 main characters who came together as a family by the end of the film with their own character development. Continuing that comparison, consider the Morlocks on the same footing as the NOVA corps in terms of screen time—you even have additional time dedicated to the The Collector and his world on Knowwhere, and of course the MCU world building in his exposition as well as the Thanos scenes. And, keep in mind that GOTG had nothing recognizable to audiences, so it all had to be delivered with meaty exposition and explained, which X-Men won’t be fully saddled with.
GOTG didn't introduce the Nova Corps, set them as at centerpiece of narrative and then kill them off in same movie and then ask the audience to get invested in this random slaughter we don't know (mutants not defined yet, the different classes + Morlocks slaughter), the death of a leader they don't know (because there is no time to develop Callisto), the grief and journey of a character they don't know (No time to flesh out Marrow) and why they should care about said character's grief because Marrow's relationship with Callisto would not be developed
The X-Men franchise should hit the ground running; we don’t need to be fearful of including too much too soon—there are plenty of sequels and new projects that will be announced, both X-Men and X-adjacent, that will be more than enough to satisfy these emerging plot threads. We had Cap wake up out of the ice and his next solo movie was Winter Soldier, Quicksilver came and went in 1 movie, Jane Foster is already assuming the mantle of Thor after 2 minor appearances—we know that the MCU moves full steam ahead.
Fox was very conservative with these characters and we should hope the MCU doesn’t follow that formula
Marvel didn't adapt the Infinity Gauntlet Saga in the first installment of Avengers franchise, they didn't hit the ground running adapting Ragnarok right off the bat with Thor, they didn't adapt Kraven's Last Hunt in Spider-Man's first outing, heck- they waited until Ant-Man's sequel to introduce Wasp: a founding member of the Avengers.
I'd argue that Fox has done nothing but "hit the ground running" with their movies. They started their franchise at the highest point of conflict by introducing us to an X-Men universe smack dab in the middle of the Mutant Registration Act being passed by Congress. They adapted Apocalypse with zero buildup in the same movie they introduced a new version of the X-Men with no development. They did Dark Phoenix (i.e the biggest X-Men story of all time) right after with an underdeveloped version of Jean Grey.
I think the method of storytelling is the reverse. Marvel are the ones who made the biggest franchise of all time by not blowing their wad right off the bat and "building" their characters and their franchises to an unprecedented degree. Fox has never done this
Negative publicity from who? The same trolls who thought they would sink Captain Marvel because of "negative publicity" from Brie's comments? I'm sure they're REALLY CONCERNED about angering that crowd again. In fact, them being angry is typically a sign Marvel has done something right. This move would guarantee huge press coverage for an otherwise low-key reboot. It's a win/win for Marvel.
Also, let's note that no one is suggesting Logan wouldn't be in this movie. In this scenario, he would be more similar of a role to Hank Pym in the Ant-Man franchise. I would imagine a solo movie featuring Laura hunting down her "father" to discover the truth about her past and them having to team up to stop a threat.
Of course. Think of the coverage Lashana Lynch received after it was reported she’d be the new 007. Daniel Craig still has top billing in that film.
Laura & Logan can operate in the MCU in the same capacity—first in a shared film (solo or team X-Men film) and then continue separately. Is Marvel really going to turn away from having 2 Wolverines? Have your cake & eat it too.
The Spider-Man films in the MCU have a very specific tone and the story that Watts and co wanted to tell did not call for the movie to tackle the emotional fallout of the "Blip", even if it should have. They actively avoid drama and serious emotional pathos (Uncle Ben was a direct casualty of this) so unless X-Men has a similar framework for storytelling, where jokes and humor are a substitute for drama, I don't think we should apply that movie to the X-Men. At least I hope not.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment—there’s plenty of emotional drama in the Spider-Man films, and I think most critics and fans alike would agree with that. This isn’t a Spider-Man thread though, so I’ll leave that there.
Comedy doesn’t lower a film’s quality.
The reason why everybody overthinks the ramifications of mutants existing in the MCU is because it's a huge portion of the Marvel Universe that has been absent for 11 years being weaved back into the narrative. And with the Mutants comes a complete redefining in the MCU about everything it means to be "superhuman'; what it means to have amazing abilities. And of course, how humanity reacts to this. Their existence introduces a new type of conflict into the MCU- where a subgroup of thousands upon millions of super powered individuals are hunted, feared and hated by both the general populace and those in power. Major MCU players are going to be involved in this conflict for that reason.
Okay, fair enough, even if a bit overstated. Still, none of that needs to be fully addressed to the extent you’re referring to in a first film. There’s not much that will need to be weaved back into the narrative. Like why they weren’t there at the battle for the gauntlet? Who cares—they weren’t heroes yet. If anything, later down the line, mutants and Xavier can be more easily viewed by public as untrustworthy because they stayed hidden so long. Their prejudice would then fuel Xavier’s argument for anonymity.
I'm talking about moreso the X-Mansion existing prior to the film's introduction of it. If the X-Men have been around for a minute, then their absence will have to be explained. The MCU started Spider-Man 6 months in his superhero profession with zero significant experience. And I'd argue that trying to do an origin story for the X-Men on top of everything else proposed would also be difficult.
I still don’t see this as an issue, regardless of my outline or the actual MCU X-Men film. It simply needn’t be addressed.
That's fair but 3 of the 4 main characters in TWS (Cap, Bucky, Natasha) were already established in prior films, lifting that burden off the writers' shoulders. They didn't adapt 'The Winter Soldier' in Cap's first movie. Sure, it wouldn't have been impossible but Marvel Studios realized that that story does not work without prior emotional investment in Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes' relationship. Mutant Massacre is a catharsis of events that works best with buildup. It's one of the heaviest, darkest X-Men stories for a reason.
I think you and I just have a difference of opinion the importance of the Morlock Massacre. I don’t think we need to see Callisto & co. film after film undergoing buildup. They would work best as an intro movie—it shows the ugly reality of the mutants X-Men are fighting for. Their massacre/capture/whatever (I don’t know if Disney would even sign off on a full-on ‘massacre’) could serve a larger X-Men narrative as in my outline or just an MCU X-film in general, and at its center is a villain audiences haven’t been beaten over the head with (I.e. Magneto or Stryker).
GOTG didn't introduce the Nova Corps, set them as at centerpiece of narrative and then kill them off in same movie and then ask the audience to get invested in this random slaughter we don't know (mutants not defined yet, the different classes + Morlocks slaughter), the death of a leader they don't know (because there is no time to develop Callisto), the grief and journey of a character they don't know (No time to flesh out Marrow) and why they should care about said character's grief because Marrow's relationship with Callisto would not be developed
Not quite, but the argument was more in reference to actual screen time.
Marvel didn't adapt the Infinity Gauntlet Saga in the first installment of Avengers franchise, they didn't hit the ground running adapting Ragnarok right off the bat with Thor, they didn't adapt Kraven's Last Hunt in Spider-Man's first outing, heck- they waited until Ant-Man's sequel to introduce Wasp: a founding member of the Avengers.
Again, difference of opinion when it comes to Morlock Massacre. I wouldn’t compare that to Infinity Gauntlet or Ragnarok. Even the Wasp argument is a stretch, since you’re now talking characters and not storylines.
I'd argue that Fox has done nothing but "hit the ground running" with their movies. They started their franchise at the highest point of conflict by introducing us to an X-Men universe smack dab in the middle of the Mutant Registration Act being passed by Congress. They adapted Apocalypse with zero buildup in the same movie they introduced a new version of the X-Men with no development. They did Dark Phoenix (i.e the biggest X-Men story of all time) right after with an underdeveloped version of Jean Grey.
Noted; we agree here. I definitely want better movies than the previous franchise.
I think the method of storytelling is the reverse. Marvel are the ones who made the biggest franchise of all time by not blowing their wad right off the bat and "building" their characters and their franchises to an unprecedented degree. Fox has never done this
And that’s a fair point too, but again, it’s based on a faulty comparison—in my mind at least. I think the Massacre is the only thing the Morlocks are good for.
The Morlocks are a mirror to the X-men's own privilege and narrow focus. Meeting the Morlocks really wakes everyone up to what the world is like outside the mansion. And the Morlocks refusing the X-men's offer to live at the mansion is a pretty provocative and interesting statement.
The way the Morlocks factor into my vision for an X-men franchise is like this:
X-men: Gold and Blue (the third movie): After recent events increase that amount of mutants in the X-men's ranks, the team decides to restructure itself in response to two seemingly unrelated cases. The Gold Team, consisting of Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde, and led by Cyclops, works with Emma Frost, headmistress of the Massachusetts’s Academy, to usurp Sebastian Shaw for leadership of the Hellfire Club, a private league for the wealthy elite. The Blue Team, consisting of Jean Grey, Iceman, Rogue, Gambit, and led by Storm, respond to calls for help from a desperate Morlock worried about the disappearances of members of the community that occupy the vast underground tunnels in New York. These two mysteries lead the X-men to the unseen networks of the very rich and the disenfranchised as they uncover abuses of power, vulnerable mutants, and an unthinkable black market.
Basically, I really like the juxtaposition between the rich Hellfire Club and precarious Morlocks and putting these two elements together helps justify the iconic "Blue" and "Gold" teams (with the colours also working symbolically to evoke shadows and decadence). I'd reimagine the Hellfire Club as wealthy humans that fetishize mutants and mutant powers, trading the organs and splicing genes they've collected from the disappeared Morlocks (think the U-men from Morrison's run combined with Get Out).
Laura still feels like a Wolverine clone to me, no matter how great her story is in the comics. Featuring her before The Wolverine in a movie is like featuring Miles Morales before Peter Parker, Kamala Khan before the more important Ms. Marvel and obviously those didn't happen under Marvel Studios.
I'm not even a big Wolverine fan, well I'm not a fan. But I just don't see Marvel Studios sidelining the Wolverine for his clone/legacy character. Imo, focus on the other X-Men first, not Wolverine and his clones.
I'd love to see Laura in the films. And I would REALLY love to see Gabby. But introducing them before Logan takes a top 10 Marvel character off the table. Bring in OG Wolverine, give him time to shine, and then introduce us to his replacement(s). Just like Feige and company are already doing with Hawkeye, Black Widow, Captain America, Hulk and Thor. (But not Iron Man because Sony).
The Morlocks are a mirror to the X-men's own privilege and narrow focus. Meeting the Morlocks really wakes everyone up to what the world is like outside the mansion. And the Morlocks refusing the X-men's offer to live at the mansion is a pretty provocative and interesting statement.
The way the Morlocks factor into my vision for an X-men franchise is like this:
X-men: Gold and Blue (the third movie): After recent events increase that amount of mutants in the X-men's ranks, the team decides to restructure itself in response to two seemingly unrelated cases. The Gold Team, consisting of Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde, and led by Cyclops, works with Emma Frost, headmistress of the Massachusetts’s Academy, to usurp Sebastian Shaw for leadership of the Hellfire Club, a private league for the wealthy elite. The Blue Team, consisting of Jean Grey, Iceman, Rogue, Gambit, and led by Storm, respond to calls for help from a desperate Morlock worried about the disappearances of members of the community that occupy the vast underground tunnels in New York. These two mysteries lead the X-men to the unseen networks of the very rich and the disenfranchised as they uncover abuses of power, vulnerable mutants, and an unthinkable black market.
Basically, I really like the juxtaposition between the rich Hellfire Club and precarious Morlocks and putting these two elements together helps justify the iconic "Blue" and "Gold" teams (with the colours also working symbolically to evoke shadows and decadence). I'd reimagine the Hellfire Club as wealthy humans that fetishize mutants and mutant powers, trading the organs and splicing genes they've collected from the disappeared Morlocks (think the U-men from Morrison's run combined with Get Out).
That FFH twist can be explained very easily as just another hologram & that Mysterio is still alive & only Peter & MJ saw it. They can simply ignore it like they did Aunt Mays ending scene
That fresh of a take is not needed, or Miles would have been the MCU Spider-Man. There’s only been one actor playing Wolverine, anyone bringing a different performance that’s 20ish years younger and in yellow and blue is gonna be distinct.
Also this “statement” and “power move” isn’t necessary to anyone. X-Men is stacked to the gills with strong women that can lead the franchise - Jean, Storm, Rogue, Emma. It’s not like X-Men has ever been a boys’ club
That fresh of a take is not needed, or Miles would have been the MCU Spider-Man. There’s only been one actor playing Wolverine, anyone bringing a different performance that’s 20ish years younger and in yellow and blue is gonna be distinct.
Also this “statement” and “power move” isn’t necessary to anyone. X-Men is stacked to the gills with strong women that can lead the franchise - Jean, Storm, Rogue, Emma. It’s not like X-Men has ever been a boys’ club
Negative publicity from who? The same trolls who thought they would sink Captain Marvel because of "negative publicity" from Brie's comments? I'm sure they're REALLY CONCERNED about angering that crowd again. In fact, them being angry is typically a sign Marvel has done something right. This move would guarantee huge press coverage for an otherwise low-key reboot. It's a win/win for Marvel.
Also, let's note that no one is suggesting Logan wouldn't be in this movie. In this scenario, he would be more similar of a role to Hank Pym in the Ant-Man franchise. I would imagine a solo movie featuring Laura hunting down her "father" to discover the truth about her past and them having to team up to stop a threat.
So youre comparing logan to hank pym and carol danvers. The latter two can barely sell mugs and could never sell comics.
Its not even apples and oranges, its steak and bread crumbs.
I mean, nobody is changing anyones opinions here. Time will tell.
But I stand by what i said. No way they are sidelining logan for a c list character. Not when they finally have the rights to do him right.
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