Marvel Films MCU X-Men - Part 4

[Fincher]

I think we should all look at Spider-Man: Homecoming and look at reasoning behind some of the changes they made to the mythos in that movie.. Because it could be a peek into what's in store for the X-Men, and it's probably going to be very different from the Singer films

Emma Frost dressed like Rogue confirmed.

 

[Abudefduf]

And Xavier's existence will never actually be confirmed, only vaguely alluded to.

 

[Lip]

The X-Men are not and never have been grounded. Marvel needs to get away from that mentality for the sake of separating this new version from the last 18 years of X-Films.

Going cosmic is not the only way to "not make it grounded". Fighting aliens have been a part of the X-Men stories, but never a defining one. And there are millions of differences between the way Sony handled Spider-Man and the way FOX did.

I just strongly disagree with the idea that the priority for Marvel should be just distance themselves from FOX as drastically as they can.

I think we should all look at Spider-Man: Homecoming and look at reasoning behind some of the changes they made to the mythos in that movie..

Although I love Spider-Man, I'm not an avid reader. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on how strongly different it is from past movies?

I particularly don't see a drastic change of tone, for instance. And the interactions are still there. Peter is interested in the popular pretty girl of the school, who eventually shows interest in him too. It's high school now with teenagers, but the dynamic isn't very different from past movies. The villain is connected to high tech. And Marvel made changes to Vulture to give him a personal connection to Peter, because that's something that works really well with the character (and also something that the previous movies had).

 

[Marvel united]

Going cosmic is not the only way to "not make it grounded". Fighting aliens have been a part of the X-Men stories, but never a defining one. And there are millions of differences between the way Sony handled Spider-Man and the way FOX did.

But it's always been prevalent. The X-Men go to space or are involved with aliens as much or if not more than the Avengers. Shi'ar Empire/Imperial Guard/Eric the Red, Brood, Asteroid M, SWORD, War of the Kings (Vulcan was the main villain), Ord/Breakworld etc. Kitty Pyde is best friends with an alien dragon (Lockheed) who turned out to be a spy for Abigail Brand. The X-Men have always had strong ties to extraterrestrial races. Heck, the X-Gene itself is the result of Celestial experimentation. These elements of the X-Men should not left on the cutting room floor in the MCU, Marvel has an opportunity to explore what Fox did not. It's as simple as that imo.

I just strongly disagree with the idea that the priority for Marvel should be just distance themselves from FOX as drastically as they can.

That's exactly what they did with Spider-Man: Homecoming. The number one sentence we kept hearing around Homecoming maintained by Feige to the director and producers, to even Holland himself was "Different from what came before "

Although I love Spider-Man, I'm not an avid reader. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on how strongly different it is from past movies?

I particularly don't see a drastic change of tone, for instance. And the interactions are still there. Peter is interested in the popular pretty girl of the school, who eventually shows interest in him too. It's high school now with teenagers, but the dynamic isn't very different from past movies. The villain is connected to high tech. And Marvel made changes to Vulture to give him a personal connection to Peter, because that's something that works really well with the character (and also something that the previous movies had).

There were many changes they made that were different from the previous movies, but most of them were neccessary.

- No Uncle Ben. Not even so much as a mention

- A technologically advanced suit akin to an Iron Man armor

- Tony Stark mentorship

- A much heavier emphasis on youth and High-school. More than any of the previous movies. And Midtown has been changed to a High-school for scientifically inclined kids. It's basically a Magnet school now instead of the normal HS from the comics.

- Aunt May is now Marisa Tomei. The exact opposite of Rosemary Harris' sage-lit mentor.

- Flash Thompson has been changed to reflect modern day bullying which is no longer the "Gimme Your Lunch Money, Punk!" But more so a sarcastic *****e who berates and insults his victim.

- Ned Leeds was changed to be Peter's confidant, sharing much In common with Ganke Lee from Miles Morales (I love this change because I love Ganke)

- Mary Jane Watson "MJ" was reinvented into Michelle Jones "MJ" whom Is a very different character from the comics. This is one change I didn't love because Mary Jane from the source material has never been accurately represented on the big screen. This is the same issue with the majority of Fox X-Men characters.


- And as you've already mentioned, all of the villains were very different from the source material and that's OK because Marvel gave us the greatest Spider-Man movie villain yet in Vulture

All In all, Homecoming was different from the previous movies. Marvel went out of their way to avoid the audience feeling any sense of familiarity to the previous versions. It was very much intentional and I'm expecting them to take a similar approach with the X-Men.

 

[Iceman]

And Xavier's existence will never actually be confirmed, only vaguely alluded to.

And he will be known as Uncle Xavier rather than Professor.

 

[Iceman]

I’d kick things off with The Savage Land. It’s uncharted territory for a superhero film and would certainly help to instantly differentiate from the Fox films.

I think the Morlocks are long overdue too. An underground city in the tunnels would be something cool to see.

The Savage Land with X-Men is a total dream scenario of mine, but it seems too ambitious to kick off with that when you have so much to introduce and establish in a first film. The Morlocks could be good when it comes time to introduce Gambit.

 

[Lip]

All In all, Homecoming was different from the previous movies. Marvel went out of their way to avoid the audience feeling any sense of familiarity to the previous versions. It was very much intentional and I'm expecting them to take a similar approach with the X-Men.

Most of that are really small changes, like Aunt May being younger, or Flash, Ned and MJ being added/changed to add diversity. I don't like Tony's involvement in the movie, but I believe it comes with the deal they made, where Sony can use a character from the MCU in their movie.

But my point is the essence is the same: Peter is in the school, he likes a girl (eventually in danger), he doesn't fit in, then there's a villain with access to high tech, and a personal connection to Peter is what makes him interesting. The essence isn't really different from previous movies. And as much as I dislike a lot of things FOX has done, there are a lot of things they've done that, IMO, has to be in the first MCU X-Men movie (or movies). After all, the X-Men is not the superhero team known for fighting aliens. I think they should be introduced with what defines them. Not by what should be different from FOX.

And also, Marvel has Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain Marvel, Ragnarok, now the Avengers and soon the Fantastic Four. Are the X-Men going cosmic too? They'll take both big FOX properties and take them to space? Don't you want make things different inside the MCU as well?

You know what is different from what FOX has done and (eventually) I want to see in the MCU, that's also very different from the other MCU franchises? Time travelers, clones, kids from the future, family drama, evil twins, alternative realities... Give me Bishop, Sinister with the whole Summer family shenanigans, Rachel, Cable, Nate, Stryfer, Madelyne Pryor, Cassandra Nova, Age of Apocalypse, House of M, family drama, family drama, family drama... I'd rather see those elements "prioritized" in the MCU X-Men universe than the X-Men fighting aliens.

Like I said before, I won't be mad if they decide to take the X-Men to cosmic adventures, but it doesn't excite me like other things they have in their hands.

 

[Marvel united]

Most of that are really small changes, like Aunt May being younger, or Flash, Ned and MJ being added/changed to add diversity. I don't like Tony's involvement in the movie, but I believe it comes with the deal they made, where Sony can use a character from the MCU in their movie.

Sure, the structure of the character and the core themes of Spider-Man (Responsibility, growing up, sacrifice) all remained intact. But the specifics: the DETAILS were very different. And the same goes for the X-Men. The theme of discrimination, persecution and injustice will all stay in the MCU adaptation but how these things are tackled will be different from the tired formula of the Singer franchise. I expect the first film to have a much lighter, much more fun tone for example. Because all of the Singet films have been dark, grounded and drab. Marvel will likely lean into the side that Singer shyed away from which is the UNCANNY, fantastical aspect of the franchise. Marvel will most likely not do a retread of the same things Singer did.

But my point is the essence is the same: Peter is in the school, he likes a girl (eventually in danger), he doesn't fit in, then there's a villain with access to high tech, and a personal connection to Peter is what makes him interesting. The essence isn't really different from previous movies. And as much as I dislike a lot of things FOX has done, there are a lot of things they've done that, IMO, has to be in the first MCU X-Men movie (or movies). After all, the X-Men is not the superhero team known for fighting aliens. I think they should be introduced with what defines them. Not by what should be different from FOX.

What defines Spider-Man? For MOST people, it Is his struggle to lead two lives. Him dealing with issues that everybody goes through. His relatability, that's what defines him and Marvel honed in on that aspect in a different way from the previous films. What defines the X-Men? Well, it's quite simple. Fighting for people who hate and fear them simply because they are "different". How that is conceptualized and realized could and should be different from Singer. That's why I suggested introducing hate of mutants through religion. Because that's an aspect from the source material prevalent in several villains yet to be explored in an X-Men movie.

And also, Marvel has Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain Marvel, Ragnarok, now the Avengers and soon the Fantastic Four. Are the X-Men going cosmic too? They'll take both big FOX properties and take them to space? Don't you want make things different inside the MCU as well?

There are wayyy more teams than that in the comics. A lot of characters go to space in the comics. space travel and alien races are a much bigger part of X-Men than say - Spider-Man.

You know what is different from what FOX has done and (eventually) I want to see in the MCU, that's also very different from the other MCU franchises? Time travelers, clones, kids from the future, family drama, evil twins, alternative realities... Give me Bishop, Sinister with the whole Summer family shenanigans, Rachel, Cable, Nate, Stryfer, Madelyne Pryor, Cassandra Nova, Age of Apocalypse, House of M, family drama, family drama, family drama... I'd rather see those elements "prioritized" in the MCU X-Men universe than the X-Men fighting aliens

There's room for all of that in the MCU. I WANT them to explore all of those things, that's why I've advocated for a younger X-Men, longevity allows them to explore in due time. But the thing is, the groundwork for more cosmic X-Men stories are already laid out in the MCU. And Feige has repeatedly said he wants to shift the MCU into a more Cosmic-oriented direction post IS. The X-Men just so happen have dozens of Cosmic stories Marvel can draw from.

Like I said before, I won't be mad if they decide to take the X-Men to cosmic adventures, but it doesn't excite me like other things they have in their hands.

That's completely fine, to each their own. And I'm not suggesting they do it for the FIRST movie. That's too soon, the foundation of the franchise needs to be established first. But down the line, maybe in X2 or X3, we could see the Cosmic side of the X-Men start to take shape. I want Lilandra and the Imperial Guard in these movies and regardless of how people feel about Cosmic X-Men, the most iconic X-Men story of all time is a Space Opera.

 

[Lip]

Sure, the structure of the character and the core themes of Spider-Man (Responsibility, growing up, sacrifice) all remained intact. But the specifics: the DETAILS were very different. And the same goes for the X-Men. The theme of discrimination, persecution and injustice will all stay in the MCU adaptation but how these things are tackled will be different from the tired formula of the Singer franchise. I expect the first film to have a much lighter, much more fun tone for example. Because all of the Singet films have been dark, grounded and drab. Marvel will likely lean into the side that Singer shyed away from which is the UNCANNY, fantastical aspect of the franchise. Marvel will most likely not do a retread of the same things Singer did.

What defines Spider-Man? For MOST people, it Is his struggle to lead two lives. Him dealing with issues that everybody goes through. His relatability, that's what defines him and Marvel honed in on that aspect in a different way from the previous films. What defines the X-Men? Well, it's quite simple. Fighting for people who hate and fear them simply because they are "different". How that is conceptualized and realized could and should be different from Singer. That's why I suggested introducing hate of mutants through religion. Because that's an aspect from the source material prevalent in several villains yet to be explored in an X-Men movie.

So we don't disagree at all

There are wayyy more teams than that in the comics. A lot of characters go to space in the comics. space travel and alien races are a much bigger part of X-Men than say - Spider-Man.

Yeah, but I feel like space travel and cosmic shenanigans are more defining for the Fantastic Four for instance than the X-Men. So they'll take both recently introduced properties to space?

There's room for all of that in the MCU. I WANT them to explore all of those things, that's why I've advocated for a younger X-Men, longevity allows them to explore in due time. But the thing is, the groundwork for more cosmic X-Men stories are already laid out in the MCU. And Feige has repeatedly said he wants to shift the MCU into a more Cosmic-oriented direction post IS. The X-Men just so happen have dozens of Cosmic stories Marvel can draw from.

You expressed how you feel about cosmic adventures and I expressed how I feel, and we just feel differently. So that's not debatable and I won't be insisting in this, because it's subjective.

However, recently I had a very similar debate about Mystique here. And what bothers me is the idea that Marvel should stay as far as possible from anything FOX ever approached. If I had to choose between Spiral and Mystique, I'm choosing Mystique in a heartbeat despite how many times she appeared in the FOX movies, because she can contribute to the stories in a more meaningful way.

So I'm gonna ask you the same about the "aliens stories". Despite The Phoenix Saga, which we know it ain't happening in the MCU any time soon, how can these cosmic adventures contribute in a meaningful way to the X-Men stories? I'm genuinely asking because I usually either skip them or I just don't pay attention, because they don't appeal to me at all. The last one I tried to read was that one from the Joss Whedon run... I can't describe how bored I was.

So that's my problem with the cosmic adventures idea. How can them contribute in a meaningful way to the X-Men?

 

[Marvel united]

So we don't disagree at all



Yeah, but I feel like space travel and cosmic shenanigans are more defining for the Fantastic Four for instance than the X-Men. So they'll take both recently introduced properties to space?




You expressed how you feel about cosmic adventures and I expressed how I feel, and we just feel differently. So that's not debatable and I won't be insisting in this, because it's subjective.

However, recently I had a very similar debate about Mystique here. And what bothers me is the idea that Marvel should stay as far as possible from anything FOX ever approached. If I had to choose between Spiral and Mystique, I'm choosing Mystique in a heartbeat despite how many times she appeared in the FOX movies, because she can contribute to the stories in a more meaningful way.

So I'm gonna ask you the same about the "aliens stories". Despite The Phoenix Saga, which we know it ain't happening in the MCU any time soon, how can these cosmic adventures contribute in a meaningful way to the X-Men stories? I'm genuinely asking because I usually either skip them or I just don't pay attention, because they don't appeal to me at all. The last one I tried to read was that one from the Joss Whedon run... I can't describe how bored I was.

So that's my problem with the cosmic adventures idea. How can them contribute in a meaningful way to the X-Men?

Well, that's the job of the writers to figure out. But Mad Ones brought up a good point in Charles' connection to Lilandra being used to emphasize the fore shadowing of mutants taking over. Since some mutants are so powerful they can reach out to alien civilizations i.e. The mutated species being worthy to join a galactic empire. That's just one way to look at it

 

[Iceman]

Apart from The Phoenix Saga, I'm not a huge fan of cosmic adventures for the X-Men. I won't be mad at all if it happens eventually, but it's not something I'm particularly excited about.

What excites me about the X-Men joining the MCU is possibility of the property finally done right, rather than things just "being different".

I agree, doing things the best way on all fronts is more important than differentiation on all fronts.

 

[Iceman]

Not only powers and costumes. Adapting the characters right, giving them lines, arcs, personalities and presence, focusing on characters like Scott, Jean and Ororo, focusing more on the team, exploring the family dynamic, and developing different story beats rather than just Charles and Eric on-again off-again friendship should be enough to be drastically different from everything FOX has ever done so far.

Yes all of that will make clear that this is a team film with many great characters.

 

[Lip]

I agree, doing things the best way on all fronts is more important than differentiation on all fronts.

I mean, Spider-Man is a solo hero, is one lead character. The X-Men is an ensemble. So while we can argue Sony didn't get this thing right, or that thing right, they've done, at the very least, a decent job with Parker. And the Sony franchises are successful in general. And while the Fox franchises are also successful in general, Parker has never been treated like Scott Summers, or Ororo, or [Add a massive list of fan favorites here]. Not to mention several of other mistakes.

What I'm trying to say is that my list of priorities for the MCU X-Men movie is more about getting right what FOX got wrong, than adapting what FOX has never done.

That's why the X-Men fighting aliens is not in my list.

 

[Iceman]

Well, that's the job of the writers to figure out. But Mad Ones brought up a good point in Charles' connection to Lilandra being used to emphasize the fore shadowing of mutants taking over. Since some mutants are so powerful they can reach out to alien civilizations i.e. The mutated species being worthy to join a galactic empire. That's just one way to look at it

I want to see Lilandra so we get an excuse to see Shiar tech in the mansion as soon as possible.

 

[Silvermoth]

You know what would be the coolest after credits scene to set up the xmen? Just a shot of someone wearing this

 

[BobJM]

The Savage Land with X-Men is a total dream scenario of mine, but it seems too ambitious to kick off with that when you have so much to introduce and establish in a first film. The Morlocks could be good when it comes time to introduce Gambit.

Introduce The Savage Land in an X-Men film, then you can expand on it in a sequel (or better yet) a spin-off. In my mind, The Savage Land is introduced as Sinister’s genetic testing ground, populated by dinosaurs & mutates. I don’t think you need to dive right into Sauron or Ka-Zar

 

[Iceman]

Introduce The Savage Land in an X-Men film, then you can expand on it in a sequel (or better yet) a spin-off. In my mind, The Savage Land is introduced as Sinister’s genetic testing ground, populated by dinosaurs & mutates. I don’t think you need to dive right into Sauron or Ka-Zar

Oh right. Yes, if you're not spending most of the film there then that changes things. I would be happy for it to be referenced and set up for a sequel. It really is something I'd absolutely love to see one day.

 

[Xeno]

Aside from good portrayals of the core X-Men (not Mystique), I really want to see basic part of the team's lore on screen. There have been more films in the Fox series than I care to recall, but we've never once seen the Danger Room used to its full potential in training. Hell, we've never seen it used at all. I think there have been two teasing glimpses of it just as the action faded to black at the ends of movies and that's it. The cost of filming a sequence was most likely the reason the room was never used, but I hope that Marvel will find a creative, cost-effective way to show us this unique X-Men asset.

Another thing I would love to see is a comics-accurate portrayal of the Sentinels. Their powers were done justice in DOFP, but I felt that the visual aspect was lacking. The blank, metallic design was too bland. The Sentinels were more intimidating when they had a more human-like, yet robotic, appearance. When they return in the MCU, it would also be great if they did that terrific heel-turn and started attacking humans as well as mutants. Master Mold and his lackeys eventually have to realize that all mutations come from human genes, and ultimately from the Sun and cosmic rays. We probably won't get to see MM lead the Sentinels on an assault against the mutation-causing Sun, but it would be fun if we do

 

[Frankeh]

I agree with you about the use of the Danger Room, maybe if Fox creatives didn't force a big Cerebro sequence every movie, including the upcoming Dark Phoenix, there would be space/budget for a Danger Room session in the movie. I don't think it should be that expensive anyway as they can just use robotic equipment for training. And what about X-Men having dinner together, playing a sport together, etc.

 

[Lip]

Not only Danger room and the Sentinels, but there's a lot about the the actual team and the dynamic between them that Marvel needs to get right. Including fun elements like having dinner or playing sports. Getting the school aspect right is another must for me.

Once we get all of that right, I'm ready to see them in space.

 

[Herofan]

I expect the first film to have a much lighter, much more fun tone for example. Because all of the Singet films have been dark, grounded and drab.

His produced but not directed First Class wasn't-and the reaction was that it was pretty successful but not more so than his others aside from later Apocaylpse.

 

[Iceman]

Aside from good portrayals of the core X-Men (not Mystique), I really want to see basic part of the team's lore on screen. There have been more films in the Fox series than I care to recall, but we've never once seen the Danger Room used to its full potential in training. Hell, we've never seen it used at all. I think there have been two teasing glimpses of it just as the action faded to black at the ends of movies and that's it. The cost of filming a sequence was most likely the reason the room was never used, but I hope that Marvel will find a creative, cost-effective way to show us this unique X-Men asset.

Another thing I would love to see is a comics-accurate portrayal of the Sentinels. Their powers were done justice in DOFP, but I felt that the visual aspect was lacking. The blank, metallic design was too bland. The Sentinels were more intimidating when they had a more human-like, yet robotic, appearance. When they return in the MCU, it would also be great if they did that terrific heel-turn and started attacking humans as well as mutants. Master Mold and his lackeys eventually have to realize that all mutations come from human genes, and ultimately from the Sun and cosmic rays. We probably won't get to see MM lead the Sentinels on an assault against the mutation-causing Sun, but it would be fun if we do

There was a scene in X3 but yes, I would love to see the Danger Room used to its full potential, as well as traditional Sentinels.

 

[Marvel united]

His produced but not directed First Class wasn't-and the reaction was that it was pretty successful but not more so than his others aside from later Apocaylpse.

Which is precisely why First Class felt like a breath of fresh air before we went right back into it with DOFP.

 

[Iceman]

I agree with you about the use of the Danger Room, maybe if Fox creatives didn't force a big Cerebro sequence every movie, including the upcoming Dark Phoenix, there would be space/budget for a Danger Room session in the movie. I don't think it should be that expensive anyway as they can just use robotic equipment for training. And what about X-Men having dinner together, playing a sport together, etc.

Yeah, I love the downtime issues.

Hopefully there is a big enough budget to have things like Cerebro and the Danger Room without having to worry about the pennies running out.

 

[Lip]

The design of Cerebro looks pretty cool in the movies. It will be interesting to see the new design in the MCU.