MCU X-Men

[Shikamaru]

I don't see any reason why Marvel would hold off on doing Wolverine. That has to be one of the characters they would be most excited about putting their own stamp on. They didn't hesitate to recast Spider-Man and shove him into Civil War as soon as they saw an opportunity to get their hands on him.

Can you think of any iconic character that was considered done "better" outside the MCU than in it by the overall culture? No. That's because Marvel's all about trying to make their versions seem definitive. It's arguably their biggest strength and what made up for their flaws all these years (villains, no diversity, etc.).

Now insert Wolverine. Wolverine just had a film that revolutionized the genre and was praised as having the best social commentary since The Dark Knight. Critics argued Jackman deserved an Oscar nomination for his performance (and Stewart). They must be excited, they have also *never* been under this much pressure before.

That's on top of the pressure that's there for Professor X and Magneto, who *twice* now have been played by A-list names that left impressions just as memorable as Marvel's. And unlike Wolverine and Magneto, Professor X has to be there from the beginning.

So unless they abandon their model of trying to make their versions definitive, or you think the audience will blindly buy any decent Wolverine as definitive just because he's in the MCU, then there's no reason to rush to an X-Man that's not mandatory. For them to replicate the reaction to Spider-Man - "Oh, all these years and I feel I only now saw the real Spider-Man!" - they need either magic or more time than with Spider-Man.

I don't think Marvel cares about the continuity issues as much as some people in this thread do, to be honest. If they did, they would've introduced properties like Dr. Strange and Black Panther a lot sooner than they did because of the world breaking aspects of their mythologies (ancient magic taught by the Ancient One, a high advanced civilization that never got colonized by the western world, etc).

Those were just expansions of the universe. They're not really issues since they didn't occupy the same corner of the world as the Avengers. The X-Men kinda do. They operate globally and fight space threats and humans with biological powers. Them not running into the X-Men is more odd than them not running into Strange or T'Challa.

That's only the case once mutants become public knowledge. Which is all the more reason why Xavier would've done everything in his power to keep their existence a secret for as long as he possibly could, and why he would keep his X-Men team a secret from the world. And why some mutants would also try to keep a low profile before their existence is discovered.

My point about mutants was in regards to your comment about mutants from the past. No one would have distinguished those mutants from the Hulk because the X-gene typically isn't discovered until it's present enough in the populace.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Can you think of any iconic character that was considered done "better" outside the MCU than in it by the overall culture? No. That's because Marvel's all about trying to make their versions seem definitive. It's arguably their biggest strength and what made up for their flaws all these years (villains, no diversity, etc.).

Now insert Wolverine. Wolverine just had a film that revolutionized the genre and was praised as having the best social commentary since The Dark Knight. Critics argued Jackman deserved an Oscar nomination for his performance (and Stewart). They must be excited, they have also *never* been under this much pressure before.

That's on top of the pressure that's there for Professor X and Magneto, who *twice* now have been played by A-list names that left impressions just as memorable as Marvel's. And unlike Wolverine and Magneto, Professor X has to be there from the beginning.

So unless they abandon their model of trying to make their versions definitive, or you think the audience will blindly buy any decent Wolverine as definitive just because he's in the MCU, then there's no reason to rush to an X-Man that's not mandatory. For them to replicate the reaction to Spider-Man - "Oh, all these years and I feel I only now saw the real Spider-Man!" - they need either magic or more time than with Spider-Man.

I think Wolverine will be in the first MCU X-Men movie because he is the most well known X-Men character to the general public, and they will want to have him in the MCU as soon as possible.

I think recasting him will probably be easier for Marvel than recasting Iron Man, to be honest. Jackman was iconic, but Marvel didn't cast him so I don't know if they have the same trepidation FOX would have in trying to cast a new actor. Marvel also has a couple of aces of their sleeve in terms of being able to do things with Wolverine that FOX couldn't do with Jackman, like crossovers with other MCU heroes and the comic book accurate costume and mask.

Those were just expansions of the universe. They're not really issues since they didn't occupy the same corner of the world as the Avengers. The X-Men kinda do. They operate globally and fight space threats and humans with biological powers. Them not running into the X-Men is more odd than them not running into Strange or T'Challa.

Who says the O5 X-Men in the MCU have done any cosmic stuff yet? Or done anything that would put them on the Avengers' radar yet? Why do we assume the mutant issue has become so big and unwieldy that it would be public knowledge at the moment? For all we know it could just be the topic of tabloids and government conspiracy websites and sub reddits right now.

My point about mutants was in regards to your comment about mutants from the past. No one would have distinguished those mutants from the Hulk because the X-gene typically isn't discovered until it's present enough in the populace.

Another reason mutants haven't been discovered yet in the MCU. Maybe there just aren't enough public cases yet.

 

[DrCosmic]

So by this logic, are you saying it was a mistake for Marvel to skip Spider-Man's origin in Civil War and Spider-Man Homecoming? Because he seemed pretty heroic already in those movies. Did we need to see him build his first suit or Uncle Ben dying in order to care about him?

Again... not every character needs to be introduced with an origin story. Its not always the only option or even the best one in every situation. I don't think an O5 movie would be the best approach here for many reasons.

You missed it bro. Our introduction to Spidey in SMHC was how he wasn't yet a hero. Wishing to be an Avenger, failing to return a stolen bike, webbing up a guy who lost his keys, failing to stop a robbery and getting the bodega burned. The highlight of his day was some lady buying him a gyro. We got to see a full herodom journey, because that's what good filmmakers like the MCU do with heroic characters who they want their audience invested in. It just didn't happen to include him getting his powers or costume, because the surface details aren't important, it's the emotional journey.

You're right. They should've given us a prequel movie where Bruce Wayne is a baby and breast feed by his mother. That would've made that Martha stuff in BvS so much more emotionally engaging and believable.

Showing a vulnerable moment with his mother is actually a good idea, especially one he could remember and that we could relate to. Putting this scene as a flashback in a story about how Batman lost his way and turned dark to get us invested in his turn back, would set up a filmic vocabulary for how the switch back could look and include his memory of his mother in a way we care about instead of laugh at. That's what people who are interested in character do, they develop character.

An entire trilogy with the O5 as teenagers is not a viable option for many reasons, and would take up far too much time. Any one and done movie would feel like a pointless prequel, because those characters would then get sidelined in the next movie.

And introducing them as brand new characters in a sequel means having to spend time introducing them to everyone, and coming up with a reason for them to join the team, as well as explaining and or showing their origins, etc.

How are any of those options practical or viable? You are wasting millions of dollars and time, and bogging things down so much with origin and set up that you won't have time to actually tell a story.

That's why I think its best to bring Beast, Angel, and Iceman in later as characters that other characters already know. It takes less set up and takes less time, and given how massive and unwieldy X-Men is as a property, we can't really afford setting everything up from the beginning and building everything from the ground up. Its best that somethings already happened off screen.

I've already told you I'm not advocating an O5 trilogy, and how an O5 movie connects to a Giant Size movie, further proof infodumps don't work. I've already pointed out that you have all the same explaining to do and more when reintroducing characters than when introducing new ones, form the same reasons that you have more explaining to do saying the X-Men have been around for 10 years than saying the X-Men just came out. You can't just say Beast is back without explaining where he's been and why he didn't help save the world, and why they're rejoining now, on top of the normal stuff for introducing a new character. More emotions take more time, it's just that simple. I've explained this, and... no response.

So, are we communicating, or nah?

 

[CaptainCommando]

It would depend on the story. But if they pull a Lee/Kirby and start with just a handful of students, I can't imagine not having them each represent something real. I don't see how it would feel contemporary otherwise.

That's where Beast, Iceman and Angel would be at disadvantage. You can give them a real metaphor, but they didn't start out with one. It begs the question of why they would get priority over A-listers like Storm (an actual minority), and even over white A-listers like Scott and Jean (one has a disability, the other looks bipolar). Before we even debate whether to alter them or to bring in new X-Men, some of those seats have already been filled.

Iceman may or may not be the exception to that, though. I don't think Marvel would have issues making him LGBT like in the comics, but I heard it would censor the film in a lot of countries. If it hurts the film's profits that much they might just pass on it.

I don't know why "diversity" have become such a huge issue nowadays. Especially so in movie making that they have to cater to them just to make more profit. I'm asian and I don't have any problems with how they portray characters in their original conception. Even my friends don't care just give us a good movie and we'll squeal like little girls.

And how exactly would you explain where the X-Men let alone mutants in general were in the last 10 years?

Mutants have been around for thousands of years and written throughout history. Their numbers in present day are still really small and manageable and not seen as a threat yet. Aside from their powers, they age a lot slower than humans.

Make them a covert team sanctioned by the world governments to stop mutant related "issues". Xavier's school is kept hidden and protected by the government.

Them being used would be a catalyst to Magneto and Xavier's falling out.

I've had a post a few pages back where I tried to explain this.

The examples you sourced are exactly why I think they'll start with the X-Men as teenagers and mutants being new. In Evolution they didn't make it past high school before they were outed. In X2 the concept of a mutant was already public even if the X-Men weren't.

Xavier mindwiping everyone is the only theory I heard not relying on contrived multiverse/reality-altering plots. Still, it would raise other questions that would have to be addressed. It wouldn't be as easy of a fix as it sounds.

Please don't make them teenagers. I want to see the MCU Xmen in their full glory. Uptight leader Scott, regal Storm etc...

Edit: And no mind wiping... that's just lazy and overpowered

 

[Iceman]

Please don't make them teenagers. I want to see the MCU Xmen in their full glory. Uptight leader Scott, drunk Wolverine, regal Storm etc...

They could make Wolverine under-age and show him on a covert mission to cross the border to obtain booze during Spring Break.

 

[CaptainCommando]

They could make Wolverine under-age and show him on a covert mission to cross the border to obtain booze during Spring Break.

I've edited that part cause I think Wolverine never really had drinking problems. He just liked to drink lol

And didn't they try to do that with the Venom actor in that 70s show? lol

 

[DrCosmic]

I've edited that part cause I think Wolverine never really had drinking problems. He just liked to drink lol

Just what an alcoholic would say.

I think it would be really cool to examine Wolverine as a tragic character. His drinking is especially pitiful because he can't get drunk. An addict without the high.

 

[CaptainCommando]

Just what an alcoholic would say.

I think it would be really cool to examine Wolverine as a tragic character. His drinking is especially pitiful because he can't get drunk. An addict without the high.

Him and Cap can be drinking buddies

 

[Shikamaru]

I think Wolverine will be in the first MCU X-Men movie because he is the most well known X-Men character to the general public, and they will want to have him in the MCU as soon as possible.

Marvel has never operated like this, though. It's actually the opposite of how they operate. Literally the entire principle behind the creation of the MCU was to believe you can get the general public to care about your lesser known characters as much as they cared about Spider-Man and Wolverine. That mindset isn't going to go away just because everyone is back at Marvel, especially with so many other popular X-Men to choose from. If Marvel thinks it's better to wait on Wolverine, popularity won't get in the way of this.

I think recasting him will probably be easier for Marvel than recasting Iron Man, to be honest. Jackman was iconic, but Marvel didn't cast him so I don't know if they have the same trepidation FOX would have in trying to cast a new actor. Marvel also has a couple of aces of their sleeve in terms of being able to do things with Wolverine that FOX couldn't do with Jackman, like crossovers with other MCU heroes and the comic book accurate costume and mask.

That's just another way of saying the audience will blindly come to see any decent Wolverine as definitive just because he's in the MCU.

Who says the O5 X-Men in the MCU have done any cosmic stuff yet? Or done anything that would put them on the Avengers' radar yet? Why do we assume the mutant issue has become so big and unwieldy that it would be public knowledge at the moment? For all we know it could just be the topic of tabloids and government conspiracy websites and sub reddits right now.

Another reason mutants haven't been discovered yet in the MCU. Maybe there just aren't enough public cases yet.

When I brought up the cosmic stuff, I was talking about the X-Men in general. What exactly do you imagine the O5 having done so far that didn't put them on a radar? Anything global would have put them on the radar for the same reasons it put the Avengers on the radar. The O5 had to have been training indoors or operate entirely on an isolated place like Genosha or the Savage Land.

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't know why "diversity" have become such a huge issue nowadays. Especially so in movie making that they have to cater to them just to make more profit. I'm asian and I don't have any problems with how they portray characters in their original conception. Even my friends don't care just give us a good movie and we'll squeal like little girls.

If the premise is Xavier recruiting Millennial-aged mutants in 2018 America, it wouldn't be believable if they just all happened to be white. Particularly in a story all about discrimination.

 

[DrCosmic]

Him and Cap can be drinking buddies

I really like the Ultimate War storyline from Ultimates, where Cap saw Wolvie and was all like "Yeah, I know that guy, that's Lucky Jim, he was a canadian paratrooper back in the war! Always wondered why he kept surviving stuff, we just figured he was lucky. That's why we called him Lucky Jim." I was dying, man. Good stuff. It'd be cool if Cap remembered Wolverine and could tell him a bit about himself from back in the day over a beer neither of them will much enjoy.

When I brought up the cosmic stuff, I was talking about the X-Men in general. What exactly do you imagine the O5 having done so far that didn't put them on a radar? Anything global would have put them on the radar for the same reasons it put the Avengers on the radar. The O5 had to have been training indoors or operate entirely on an isolated place like Genosha or the Savage Land.

GET THIS MAN A SHIELD!

Speaking of SHIELD, they definitely were monitoring stuff like this, and their files definitely got released to the public, and so that means the X-Men can't even be PRIVATE knowledge before 2014, or else they'd be public knowledge afterwards.

Those were just expansions of the universe. They're not really issues since they didn't occupy the same corner of the world as the Avengers. The X-Men kinda do. They operate globally and fight space threats and humans with biological powers. Them not running into the X-Men is more odd than them not running into Strange or T'Challa.

Just quoting for truth. Kamar Taj and Wakanda are fundamentally about not being seen and known about, so them not being seen and known about makes tons of sense and lines up with the concept and arc of the characters and world building. Mutants are fundamentally about being seen and known about and looked for, they're spread out evenly through the whole world, so one person can't direct all of them. Trying to finagle in some sort of magical dimension or doctrine of seclusion into the X-mythos works AGAINST the story.

Though having them have had a single mission with a cover up in the past, like Krakoa or Genosha could be an interesting wrinkle. Of course, maybe you should save those for the first film itself, since you have to explain for every X-film why the Avengers don't get involved or that becomes a critique of the film like it was for Winter Soldier.

-------

At this point, looking at how Marvel dealt with Spider-Man, I can almost bet money that the X-Men will be college aged, students of Xavier who are not yet superheroes, and that's the journey they movie covers. It'd be interesting if Xavier originally taught them to use their powers for non-combat heroic purposes: Scott as the excavator/jaws of life, Jean as the intel, Iceman as structural support and a sculptor, Angel as recon, Beast as tech support, Colossus as a bodyguard, Nightcrawler as emergency extraction, Storm as agricultural assistance...

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Marvel has never operated like this, though. It's actually the opposite of how they operate. Literally the entire principle behind the creation of the MCU was to believe you can get the general public to care about your lesser known characters as much as they cared about Spider-Man and Wolverine. That mindset isn't going to go away just because everyone is back at Marvel, especially with so many other popular X-Men to choose from. If Marvel thinks it's better to wait on Wolverine, popularity won't get in the way of this.

This isn't true at all. Prior to 2008 what were the biggest characters that Marvel had the rights to (so no X-Men, Fantastic Four, or Spider-Man)? Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. Without question. And what were the first movies they made? Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. It took ten films and six years before they started with lesser known heroes (Guardians of the Galaxy). It wasn't about getting the general public to care about lesser known characters. It was about making due with what they had at the time.

 

[Marvel united]

Great points Dr. Cosmic and Shikamaru. You really nailed the key point. Skipping 10 years of a franchise's history so they can get to the "meat" is NOT how Marvel operates. They almost always start their heroes off at the beginning of their journeys. Homecoming keeps being brought up as an "example" which fails to remember that the whole point of Homecoming was to show Peter Parker as an inexperienced, rookie hero. You didn't see Spider-Man start off as a 28 year old married man who has a job as a science teacher at Midtown High-school? We've already seen them do exactly this in the first 3 X-Men movies. They immediately jumped into the Giant-Size roster.

And the idea that they're going to absolutely want Wolverine in the very first X-Men is also not how they do things. popularity Does. Not. Matter. To. Them. A character's status is not going to dictate whether Marvel puts them in a movie. This has been shown time and time again when they took B-List heroes and made them into huge A-Listers.

 

[Shikamaru]

This isn't true at all. Prior to 2008 what were the biggest characters that Marvel had the rights to (so no X-Men, Fantastic Four, or Spider-Man)? Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. Without question. And what were the first movies they made? Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. It took ten films and six years before they started with lesser known heroes (Guardians of the Galaxy). It wasn't about getting the general public to care about lesser known characters. It was about making due with what they had at the time.

Other than maybe Hulk, they weren't selling the way Spider-Man and X-Men were selling. They were relatively "lesser known" but that didn't stop Marvel trying to use them to outgross Spider-Man and the X-Men. They didn't buy into any static hierarchy mentality that nothing can outsell Wolverine, that's what I meant.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Other than maybe Hulk, they weren't selling the way Spider-Man and X-Men were selling. They were relatively "lesser known" but that didn't stop Marvel trying to use them to outgross Spider-Man and the X-Men. They didn't buy into any static hierarchy mentality that nothing can outsell Wolverine, that's what I meant.

No, they weren't as big as Spider-Man or X-Men. But they were the biggest names Marvel had. They didn't exactly start with Squirrel Girl and Goliath. They didn't even start with Ant-Man and Wasp. If they had the rights to Spider-Man and Wolverine, they would have been in Phase 1. I can practically guarantee it.

 

[CaptainCommando]

If the premise is Xavier recruiting Millennial-aged mutants in 2018 America, it wouldn't be believable if they just all happened to be white. Particularly in a story all about discrimination.

I'm not against the whole race swapping or gender bending as long as it services the story.

But it's about the "mutant race". Color or gender does not have anything to do with it. Being discriminated on as mutants already reflects discrimination in general. Concept is the same so isn't that enough?

This isn't true at all. Prior to 2008 what were the biggest characters that Marvel had the rights to (so no X-Men, Fantastic Four, or Spider-Man)? Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. Without question. And what were the first movies they made? Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. It took ten films and six years before they started with lesser known heroes (Guardians of the Galaxy). It wasn't about getting the general public to care about lesser known characters. It was about making due with what they had at the time.

Regardless of what Marvel's situation or what they had/didn't have at that time doesn't really matter.

But Iron man was a safer venture than how most people put it out to be; still a gamble nonetheless. They were counting on the success of transformers and come on who doesn't like robots. I think that's why they chose him to start the MCU and because he is the most grounded.

 

[Shikamaru]

No, they weren't as big as Spider-Man or X-Men. But they were the biggest names Marvel had. They didn't exactly start with Squirrel Girl and Goliath. They didn't even start with Ant-Man and Wasp. If they had the rights to Spider-Man and Wolverine, they would have been in Phase 1. I can practically guarantee it.

Point being, if Marvel doesn't want their Wolverine to be seen secondary to Jackman's, then they're still in a situation they "can't" immediately rush to Wolverine (even though they *technically* can).

Other point being, other X-Men were initially not much different than Iron Man and Captain America, if anything a lot of them were a little more popular. If Marvel was confident their Iron Man and Cap could reach the popularity of a Wolverine when they couldn't use Wolverine, they're confident enough other big X-Men can do the same for the first film or two while they figure out how to reintroduce Wolverine.

 

[Iceman]

I've edited that part cause I think Wolverine never really had drinking problems. He just liked to drink lol

And didn't they try to do that with the Venom actor in that 70s show? lol

What Venom on Spring Break? That sounds like some kind of nightmare.

 

[Marvel united]

Good news, Gambit just lost another director. Chances of it getting made are slim to none now

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Point being, if Marvel doesn't want their Wolverine to be seen secondary to Jackman's, then they're still in a situation they "can't" immediately rush to Wolverine (even though they *technically* can).

Other point being, other X-Men were initially not much different than Iron Man and Captain America, if anything a lot of them were a little more popular. If Marvel was confident their Iron Man and Cap could reach the popularity of a Wolverine when they couldn't use Wolverine, they're confident enough other big X-Men can do the same for the first film or two while they figure out how to reintroduce Wolverine.

I'm not saying Marvel will definitely use Wolverine right away (I think they will, but it isn't what I'm arguing), just that you can't use what they did with the Avengers as justification for it because that's not what they did with the Avengers. They used the biggest names they had right away.

The big difference between Iron Man and Captain America and the other popular X-Men, is that aside from Wolverine, X-Men is basically ONE franchise. The characters are very similar. They have the same goals, motives, supporting casts, villains, power source, and similar backgrounds. The Avengers isn't like that. The Avengers is an amalgamation of separate franchises. Iron Man and Captain America are their own characters first and Avengers second, whereas Cyclops and Storm are X-Men first and their own characters second.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm not against the whole race swapping or gender bending as long as it services the story.

But it's about the "mutant race". Color or gender does not have anything to do with it. Being discriminated on as mutants already reflects discrimination in general. Concept is the same so isn't that enough?

It's so not. White people taking the role of minorities in stories is itself discrimination. That's part of why the all white O5 failed because they were fundamentally hypocritical as a result of the discrimination of the 60s. Race swapping, or the more likely swapping out who the O5 is services the story, which is about what people who look like them go through. If instead of discrimination, your story is a metaphor for menopause and you don't have women and older folks in key central roles, you're kinda missing the premise. Young people and men just can't reflect menopause as well on their own, because we all know who gets it in real life, and too many people know how older and female actors don't get many good parts, and don't like that continued discrimination.

 

[Iceman]

Good news, Gambit just lost another director. Chances of it getting made are slim to none now

Yep, pretty big setback at this stage.

 

[WeaponXCII]

And New Mutants got pushed back several months. This day just keeps getting better!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...bit-new-mutants-get-new-release-dates-1073560

Edit: Gambit has also been delayed (to June), as expected.

 

[Shikamaru]

I'm not saying Marvel will definitely use Wolverine right away (I think they will, but it isn't what I'm arguing), just that you can't use what they did with the Avengers as justification for it because that's not what they did with the Avengers. They used the biggest names they had right away.

The big difference between Iron Man and Captain America and the other popular X-Men, is that aside from Wolverine, X-Men is basically ONE franchise. The characters are very similar. They have the same goals, motives, supporting casts, villains, power source, and similar backgrounds. The Avengers isn't like that. The Avengers is an amalgamation of separate franchises. Iron Man and Captain America are their own characters first and Avengers second, whereas Cyclops and Storm are X-Men first and their own characters second.

I'm saying that even though they can use Wolverine right away, it's almost true to say they *can't* use him right away (key word is 'almost'). It will be extremely hard to use him in a way that leaves the impact they want to. The way they popularized the Avengers is impressive, but they were a blank slate. The X-Men franchise set a standard they have to live up to, the highest of them being Wolverine (on top of Xavier and Magneto).

We can clearly tell they were under more pressure with Spider-Man than with their other characters. That's why we finally got a good villain not named Loki, a distinct John Hughes tone for the "Marvel movies feel the same" crowd, and a brighter color palette than the one they were using. They understood they couldn't just proceed with business as usual, they had to step up their game and live up to the standard set by the Spidey franchise...fifteen years ago. When played by an actor who never left his mark on Spider-Man the way Jackman did (neither did Andrew, for that matter). The X-Men, Wolverine especially, will bring the same pressure Spider-Man did but on steroids.

That's why I don't see Marvel rushing to him. You're right they'll "start with him", in the sense they'll immediately start working on him, but that's not the same thing as immediately debuting him. That's because it will be the hardest recast to do that's not their own (and really, do we know for sure Marvel will immediately recast even their own? Recent comments from Feige imply it could go either way).

Lastly, your point about X-Men being one franchise is exactly why I don't see Wolverine there in the first film. The X-Men is a franchise that can compete with Iron Man and Captain America, and Wolverine is just a part of it.

 

[Detective Conan]

Gambit allow me to welcome you to the 'movies that are announced but are never going to get made' club. Other members include Fan4stic 2, Amazing Spider-Man 3 and 4, and of course...half of the DCEU slate.