Michael Bay Press Conference on SHH Frontpage

Now you're just being argumentative. None of those things you describe are "right wing." Being "good" or moralistic isn't limited to right-wingers. Nor patriotism either for that matter.
I think my point was, since you missed it, that Transformers was made in the heyday of the Reagan administration which was very conservative. It might not have a political agenda, but it certainly wasn't liberal, not in a modern day sense. It was a conservative show, because it was written in a conservative manner. It had no overt references to sex, the characters were unambiguously good and evil, good always trimuphed and America never was questioned...that's fairly conservative. Certainly from an entertainment perspective. Conservative isn't a political party, but it is a view of the world...and Transformers wasn't rally against the establishment by any means.
 
Are you sure about this? I can't remember everything about the plot of Bad Boys but, I don't remember it having a right wing agenda. I haven't seen Bad Boys 2 or the Island so I have no opinion on those movies. As for Amargaddon, Pearl Harbor, and The Rock are you serious? Two democratic presidents lead this nation during World War 2. If something like Armagaddeon took place I doubt that politics would decide how that problem would be handled. The Rock actually conveyed a message that was anti-government. After seeing that film I felt nothing but, hatred towards the way our government treats vets and I'm not a liberal!!! I'm not seeing this right-wing leaning agenda that you're seeing.

The Island is the one most overt. Research it. Watch it. I am NOT saying Michael Bay is "Michael Moore" overt.... or heavy handed... or even that he has an "agenda" (I don't think he does have an "agenda"). I'm saying his movies have "leanings." I didn't come up with this... critics have talked about this for years. http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/showarticle.php3?ID=7
 
I'd say I have pretty high standards. So high in fact I don't want it to degrade itself down to the level of a children's TV show made in the eighties...but you sure seem to.
For some far above children's entertainment you certainly resort to childish insults an awful lot. :dry:
 
The Island is the one most overt. Research it. Watch it. I am NOT saying Michael Bay is "Michael Moore" overt.... or heavy handed... or even that he has an "agenda" (I don't think he does have an "agenda"). I'm saying his movies have "leanings." I didn't come up with this... critics have talked about this for years. http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/showarticle.php3?ID=7
I've heard he is a right winger. But I agree with Theweepeople that we don't see it in all his films. Or at least he isn't heavy handed about it. The Island at least was about something political whereas I don't see you factoring much politics into Transformers (or Bad Boys for that matter). At least not overtly. I mean, as I said, one could see Transformers as a conservative cartoon (as it doesn't really push the envelope), but politically it seems rather neutral.
 
I've heard he is a right winger. But I agree with Theweepeople that we don't see it in all his films. Or at least he isn't heavy handed about it. The Island at least was about something political whereas I don't see you factoring much politics into Transformers (or Bad Boys for that matter). At least not overtly. I mean, as I said, one could see Transformers as a conservative cartoon (as it doesn't really push the envelope), but politically it seems rather neutral.

Natural resources plotline. Largely pacifist, reluctant warrior Optimus Prime. That thing screamed hippie. Throw in the VW 'star' (traditionally associated with hippies) and... well, you know what I mean. I mean, the writers could have picked any of the "cooler" hot-rod Autobots to play that role. Insetad they bucked the Knight Rider, Dukes of Hazzard, trend.

I agree Bay isn't heavy-handed. And I don't think he's got an agenda. But, there are "leanings" and gung-ho themes in his movies. They're like manifestations of the "A" guys in Team America. America, F Yeah!!!
 
Natural resources plotline. Largely pacifist, reluctant warrior Optimus Prime. That thing screamed hippie.
Ummmm....Optimus carried a big gun and wasn't reluctant to use it against Decepticons...not exactly what I'd call pacifist. Plus his character is based on John Wayne, hence the voice sounding the way it does.
Throw in the VW 'star' (traditionally associated with hippies) and... well, you know what I mean. I mean, the writers could have picked any of the "cooler" hot-rod Autobots to play that role. Insetad they bucked the Knight Rider, Dukes of Hazzard, trend.
Jazz got just as much screentime as Bumblebee, and the fact is the Transformers is an ensemble piece. Bumblebee was no more the star than Megatron (a gun), Starscream (a jet), Wheeljack (a race car), and then later he would share the spotlight with Tracks (a hot rod), Blaster (a boombox), etc. And furthermore Bumblebee was merely a recognizable car from that era, as was nearly everyone else. Nothing political there.
I agree Bay isn't heavy-handed. And I don't think he's got an agenda. But, there are "leanings" and gung-ho themes in his movies. They're like manifestations of the "A" guys in Team America. America, F Yeah!!!
Transformers were "Go America, f*** yeah, go America!". I mean they practically embodied the perfect American soldiers. Brave, patriotic, freedom loving individuals...all who carried guns. You never exactly saw the Transformers defending Bosnia or Iraq during the show.
 
ShadowBoxing said:
Ummmm....Optimus carried a big gun and wasn't reluctant to use it against Decepticons...not exactly what I'd call pacifist. Plus his character is based on John Wayne, hence the voice sounding the way it does.

Once again, we see things differently. And I didn't know this was under debate either. Luckily I'm not the only one... as this guy puts it much better than I could in an article (and there are others) :

"Prime usually seeks out a peaceful alternative to the problems of the Autobots, their war with the Decepticons, and the home planet of Cybertron. In the graphic novel "Transformers War Within", this is proved. Optimus Prime is willing to turn over Cybertron to Megatron shortly after Sentinel Prime is killed and he takes over. He does this because he fears Cybertron will be turned into a wasteland after all the wars. Many Autobots are displeased with this, and question Prime's leadership abilities (as he was just an archivist). The Autobots had been fighting the Decepticons over Cybertron for ages and are unwilling to give it up just like that. Prime's views change after a battle with Megatron. He begins to think not just in the scope of his homeworld Cybertron, but other cultures. What if the Decepticons went on to conquer more planets? He decides to make a stand on Cyberton.

Again, Prime is a peaceful warrior. As can be seen in his epic fight with Megatron in the first Transformers movie, he gave Megatron every chance to survive the fight. He only ended Megatron's life when he had to. Of course, no one stays dead in these kinds of stories."
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/268437/optimus_prime_deconstructed_a_short.html

ShadowBoxing said:
Jazz got just as much screentime as Bumblebee, and the fact is the Transformers is an ensemble piece. Bumblebee was no more the star than Megatron (a gun), Starscream (a jet), Wheeljack (a race car), and then later he would share the spotlight with Tracks (a hot rod), Blaster (a boombox), etc. And furthermore Bumblebee was merely a recognizable car from that era, as was nearly everyone else. Nothing political there.

A defunct decidely uncool car... used as the INTRODUCTION to the robots. The human liason. If I was Hasbro I would have slapped Jim Shooter, Denny O' Neil, and Bob Budiansky upside the head for not using one of the "cooler" cars in the lineup. Anybody who thinks Beetles were cool in 1984 are "re-writing" history. They weren't. Trans-am's, Dodge Chargers, etc were.

ShadowBoxing said:
Transformers were "Go America, f*** yeah, go America!". I mean they practically embodied the perfect American soldiers. Brave, patriotic, freedom loving individuals...all who carried guns. You never exactly saw the Transformers defending Bosnia or Iraq during the show.

No, they defended the entire planet. Doesn't get more hippie than that.
 
Once again, we see things differently. And I didn't know this was under debate either. Luckily I'm not the only one... as this guy puts it much better than I could in an article (and there are others) :

"Prime usually seeks out a peaceful alternative to the problems of the Autobots, their war with the Decepticons, and the home planet of Cybertron. In the graphic novel "Transformers War Within", this is proved. Optimus Prime is willing to turn over Cybertron to Megatron shortly after Sentinel Prime is killed and he takes over. He does this because he fears Cybertron will be turned into a wasteland after all the wars. Many Autobots are displeased with this, and question Prime's leadership abilities (as he was just an archivist). The Autobots had been fighting the Decepticons over Cybertron for ages and are unwilling to give it up just like that. Prime's views change after a battle with Megatron. He begins to think not just in the scope of his homeworld Cybertron, but other cultures. What if the Decepticons went on to conquer more planets? He decides to make a stand on Cyberton.
War Within Prime is substantially different from previous incarnations of Prime. Optimus in the cartoon also wasn't a librarian (record keeper) like he was in War Within. So lets be clear, War Within is not the cartoon, its a comic written nearly two decades after the cartoon ended by a company (Dreamwave) which has no connection to the people at Sunbow.

Also the explanation given in WW for leaving the planet is not the same as the one given in the cartoon (actually there wasn't one really ever given in the cartoon since it starts when the Autobots are preparing to leave, not when they are planning).

Also Marvel comics, just so you don't start using that road was a soujorn into space to clear some asteroids. Not to escape the war. Prime was actually far more violent in the comics, once even having Hot Rod bluff that he would kill Lord Zarack (a humanoid) if they did not cease their fight. Prime also killed one of Bludgeon's troops on Klo (bashed his head in), and allowed for the death of Starscream. Violence certainly wasn't something he enjoyed, but he committed acts of it knowingly as he saw it as necessary in their fight.
Again, Prime is a peaceful warrior. As can be seen in his epic fight with Megatron in the first Transformers movie, he gave Megatron every chance to survive the fight. He only ended Megatron's life when he had to. Of course, no one stays dead in these kinds of stories."
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/268437/optimus_prime_deconstructed_a_short.html
The epic fight where he beats the crap out of Megatron. Yep real hippie pacificist. Given someone open ended opportunities to walk away is not the same as being a pacifist, it's called showing mercy. Optimus still however was quiet willing to punch the ever living bejesus out of Megatron before doing so. Also Optimus wasn't one to back down from a fight accepting Megatron's challenge in "Heavy Metal War" and then issuing his own challenge at the end of the episode after all the other Decepticons had been beaten. Plus as I said he had a big gun, and HE USED IT. Whoever wrote that article must have forgot how Optimus killed 5 Decepticons before battling Megatron in the first place (all 5 miracluously survived unscathed...even though that's visibly not the case).

And just to jog your memory, a pacifist wouldn't have initiated the fight with Megatron....Optimus most certainly did.

See if you can pick out all the "pacifist things" he does in the clip :rolleyes:
A defunct decidely uncool car
Which was heavily recognizable at the time.
... used as the INTRODUCTION to the robots.
The first Transformer seen and speaking was Wheeljack. The second was Bumblebee, who at the time Transformed into some Cybertron thing. Optimus Prime was the first to make contact with humans in the cartoon.
The human liason.
Hound was the first to give Spike and ride and the first to talk to Spike one on one. He was also the first to take Spike along on a mission, and the first to rescue Spike.
If I was Hasbro I would have slapped Jim Shooter, Denny O' Neil, and Bob Budiansky upside the head for not using one of the "cooler" cars in the lineup. Anybody who thinks Beetles were cool in 1984 are "re-writing" history. They weren't. Trans-am's, Dodge Chargers, etc were.
Jazz, Hound, Bumblebee, Wheeljack and Optimus were all used interchangibly as companions to Spike. Bumblebee was used primarily in some cases because his size made him more relateable to humans, and he could easily fit in most places they could. "I'm the smallest so I have the best chance of not being seen" as Bumblebee puts it. Remember also that Bumblebee was the spy of the Autobots, which was a job shared by the humans.

And as for the comic, Buster (who was the comics "Spike")was not the companion to the robots as he was in the show.

And Optimus, the giant semi, not Bumblebee was the main character. Bumblebee, in the comics, was in fact a bit player for most of it. Ratchet was the sole Autobot left following the end of the miniseries. Skids would be the focus of the next major arc. Following Skids the focus would shift to Blaster and Goldbug (the reformated Bumblebee). And finally Fortress Maximus would command and take the lead for several stories. Grimlock was also an oft used favorite.
No, they defended the entire planet. Doesn't get more hippie than that.
No, they defended America. They hardly ever were seen in other countries, and on the rare occasion they were it was a country whose ideals jived with America. Remember this is the same show that caused one of their own stars, Casey Kasem, to quit because it mocked and ridiculed arab society. And they defended the western world with guns, typically lethal guns with rocket launchers attached...not very hippie at all.

If you ignore the guns and all the fighting they are pacifists, but since the whole show was guns and fighting (as was the comic) your whole point kinda goes flying out the window faster than Lazerbeak after being spotted. Pacifists are people who DON'T FIGHT and DON'T ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE, this certainly applies to no one but First Aid the first Autobot ever to literally refuse to fight on moral grounds. Optimus, if anything, supported violence as a means to end conflict as he led an entire faction that had and was still using violence to end a conflict.
 
I'm not just talking about tv writers but any artist paid to make something more appealing.

that's far more crucial than these poorly-contrived examples you keep bringing up. An artist's work should not be judged by the motivations of those who hired him/her.

Get it yet? :csad:
Ummm, lets try this one on for size. Like every other cartoon of it's day. He-Man, Ninja Turtles, G.I.Joe, Thundercats (all toy TV shows), Transformers was written by committee, not by an "artist". The writing credits from episode to episode change dramatically, and the shows content was approved by a higher authority. This isn't creator driven work we are talking about here.
 
Ummm, lets try this one on for size. Like every other cartoon of it's day. He-Man, Ninja Turtles, G.I.Joe, Thundercats (all toy TV shows), Transformers was written by committee, not by an "artist". The writing credits from episode to episode change dramatically, and the shows content was approved by a higher authority. This isn't creator driven work we are talking about here.

Big deal.
 
Unlike--for example--Mobile Suit Gundam. While it was somewhat a toy commercial for the models Yoshiyuki Tomino retaiend a strong stance for making the show more then just that. It was a character study as well as a show about the old saying: "War's Hell."
 
Well it is a big deal, because it means Hasbro retains full creative control of the show, not the writers. That's fairly substantial.

As is the case with most if not all kid programming some "entity" always retains creative control or final say. It's a matter of how much they butt in that matters either for better or for worse. What you're saying isn't earth-shattering or shocking. I mean, TOHO (the entity) suppossedly had spellt-out final veto on Godzilla 98 throughout the whole production, but after a lot of back&forth arguing capitulated to the American "writer" (Dean Devlin). That's one case where the "committee" should have won out.
 
Ummm, lets try this one on for size. Like every other cartoon of it's day. He-Man, Ninja Turtles, G.I.Joe, Thundercats (all toy TV shows), Transformers was written by committee, not by an "artist". The writing credits from episode to episode change dramatically, and the shows content was approved by a higher authority. This isn't creator driven work we are talking about here.

again,

"An artist's work should not be judged by the motivations of those who hired him/her."
 
again,

"An artist's work should not be judged by the motivations of those who hired him/her."
Actually it should. People who write advertisements aren't displaying art, they are following strict guidelines on what to do and how to do it. Perhaps they hired quality people, in fact Denny O'Neil is a great writer, but when his "art" get heavily revised by Hasbro and then is given to another series of writers when Denny refuses to make the changes it stops being art and starts being an advertisement being made by Hasbro. It wasn't someone's baby, like Spider-Man who came out of Stan Lee's imagination, it's like McDonald's: a heavily processed and commercialized product made by a committee. And last time I checked some chef's award winning filet mignon and a whooper were on two different levels.
 
Simply put, ShadowBoxing just doesn't like Transformers G1. Not the cartoon, not the comic, not the bio cards.

He'll respond to posts he can deride and ignore others that are conversational. No "I see what you, mean," no "good point", or "Yeah, had they followed TOHO's strict guidelines, Godzilla 98 may have been a much more inspired movie given the big hollywood budget."

I didn't know Denny O'Neil's Transformers treatment was "heavily revised" by Hasbro. I heard it was flat out rejected. So, what?!?! Probably for the better it seems. Who's to say it wasn't a Gobots take on it all? And he didn't so much "refuse" but passed it along for someone to put a fresh take or revision on it....... not unlike Orci/Kurtzman being brought on by Michael Bay to "revise" John (Catwoman) Rogers Transformers script.
 
Simply put, ShadowBoxing just doesn't like Transformers G1. Not the cartoon, not the comic, not the bio cards.

He'll respond to posts he can deride and ignore others that are conversational. No "I see what you, mean," no "good point", or "Yeah, had they followed TOHO's strict guidelines, Godzilla 98 may have been a much more inspired movie given the big hollywood budget."

I didn't know Denny O'Neil's Transformers treatment was "heavily revised" by Hasbro. I heard it was flat out rejected. So, what?!?! Probably for the better it seems. Who's to say it wasn't a Gobots take on it all? And he didn't so much "refuse" but passed it along for someone to put a fresh take or revision on it....... not unlike Orci/Kurtzman being brought on by Michael Bay to "revise" John (Catwoman) Rogers Transformers script.

Bob Budiansky :up:
 
Simply put, ShadowBoxing just doesn't like Transformers G1. Not the cartoon, not the comic, not the bio cards.
Don't put words in my mouth. I own all but 60 of the G1 toys, every. single. last. G1 comic and trade paperback, every. single. last. episode including all Japanese fandubs. So in fact I like it more than you...but I like it for what it is, and I am fairly realistic when giving a portrayal of what it was.
He'll respond to posts he can deride and ignore others that are conversational. No "I see what you, mean," no "good point", or "Yeah, had they followed TOHO's strict guidelines, Godzilla 98 may have been a much more inspired movie given the big hollywood budget."
In fact many posters have made good points and I usually point them out. You sadly are not one of them, and it stems from your lack of knowledge on G1.
I didn't know Denny O'Neil's Transformers treatment was "heavily revised" by Hasbro. I heard it was flat out rejected. So, what?!?! Probably for the better it seems. Who's to say it wasn't a Gobots take on it all? And he didn't so much "refuse" but passed it along for someone to put a fresh take or revision on it....... not unlike Orci/Kurtzman being brought on by Michael Bay to "revise" John (Catwoman) Rogers Transformers script.
No, this is different. Shoring up dialogue is one thing. Making a cartoon into an advertisement is another. They purposely shot the show like an advertisement and purposely made animation studios put out one a week and make a concept that was vague enough so that the characters could be written in without causing any changes. In other words, they were looking for an excuse for the robots to fight, not a good story, not a compelling plotline, not a dramatic overtone...but a toy commercial. Something that would hold attention for 22 minutes and cause children to want toys...nothing to deep there.
 
Bob Budiansky :up:
Hmmmm. funny, he didn't write the cartoon. I think which is what we're talking about. CFlash really must stop confusing the comics and the cartoon, or thinking one was a supplement to the other...they didn't even have the same characters (aside the from the robots themselves, but even then the characters portrayed were vastly different).
 
Hmmmm. funny, he didn't write the cartoon. I think which is what we're talking about. CFlash really must stop confusing the comics and the cartoon, or thinking one was a supplement to the other...they didn't even have the same characters (aside the from the robots themselves, but even then the characters portrayed were vastly different).

That's you're problem. You have no idea what we're talking about, despite us repeatedly stating it. You're too concerned with regurgitating "trivia" than actually speaking to a point. Even in this post. WE KNOW they were different writers. *shakes head*
 
That's you're problem. You have no idea what we're talking about, despite us repeatedly stating it. You're too concerned with regurgitating "trivia" than actually speaking to a point. Even in this post. WE KNOW they were different writers. *shakes head*
Do you know what the differences between the comics and the cartoon are? Because it's apparent you haven't since most of this discussion has been going on. You didn't even realize the Allspark, as portrayed in the movie, was pretty much exactly what the comic Matrix was until I told you.
 
Do you know what the differences between the comics and the cartoon are? Because it's apparent you haven't since most of this discussion has been going on. You didn't even realize the Allspark, as portrayed in the movie, was pretty much exactly what the comic Matrix was until I told you.

You keep on thinking that.
 
Do you know what the differences between the comics and the cartoon are? Because it's apparent you haven't since most of this discussion has been going on. You didn't even realize the Allspark, as portrayed in the movie, was pretty much exactly what the comic Matrix was until I told you.

Wait a minute. The matrix is the creator of the transformers in the old comics?
 
Wait a minute. The matrix is the creator of the transformers in the old comics?
Yes, the Matrix is Primus in the comics. Don't you remember what Optimus says as he shoves the Matrix into Unicron, "Primus, you must die, so that all may live". The Matrix is the "spark" of Primus.

The Matrix in the comic is also referred to as the "Genetic Matrix".
 
Yes, the Matrix is Primus in the comics. Don't you remember what Optimus says as he shoves the Matrix into Unicron, "Primus, you must die, so that all may live". The Matrix is the "spark" of Primus.

The Matrix in the comic is also referred to as the "Genetic Matrix".

Creation Matrix.
 

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