Moviehole Reads Warzone Script....and they like it!

[rogue trooper]

I actually prefered Ennis's retelling of the story in The Cell than I do the original version with the guy being hung from the tree.

Well, I haven't read The Cell yet. So we'll see.

 

[The Guard]

Maybe it's just me...but I found a calculated mob hit against Frank's entire family at a family reunion to be a pretty solid motivation for becoming The Punisher. And much more realistic than his family getting gunned down accidentally while they were in Central Park. It adds another layer to his character's motivation.

 

[citizenpain]

i think the fact that it was a random act of violence gives frank more motivation to become the punisher than having his family specifically targeted and killed by the mob. surely they're both enough to motivate him, but the random aspect of his comic origin is better. it could have happened to anybody, and that's why he becomes the punisher and lashes out against all crime rather than only seeking revenge on the people responsible.

 

[citizenpain]

The thing about the Central Park thing is; how can you make an execution in a place where there are so many people walking around?

.....no, but see, that's what I mean. The mob. If I recall, the mob had some guy hanged upside down from a tree whom they were executing(or something) in Central Park. And then the Castles stumble upon the incident and get executed so that there are no witnesses. Right? Why would the mob do this in Central Park of all places?

central park is pretty huge, it's like 2.5 x .5 miles with tons of trees and foilage. plenty of space, plenty of spots to hide, and crime is not uncommon there either. so i think it's an entirely possible scenario.

 

[claydogg]

Well, I haven't read The Cell yet. So we'll see.

now in the old punisher I thought it was some of kingpins henchmen.
correct me if I'm wrong.
I'll have to dust off some of my old comics.
or ask "Savage" he seems to know it all.

But I did like the cell too.

"His brains fell into my hands!'

that was sweet!!!!!!!

 

[Bubonic]

^^^
Dude, your unnecessarily escalating things.
It's bound to go back and forth like a game of ping-pong if the invites to confrontation don't end.

Yah, when reading the cell,

Spoiler

I was under the impression that the Punisher had long ago killed those guilty of killing his wife and kids. So did Ennis sort of tweak the origin to better suit the awesome one-shot? Oh, and although there were time constraints, I figured he'd of taken much more time in killing them, torture them...

Guess Frank isn't a total sadist?

 

[claydogg]

so what new "bub?"

Did you realize that if this movie was done back in 1985
(the budget would be almost double)
(that's when I first started getting into the punisher)

becuase back then the candian dollar was 65 cents to 1 dollar US.

man bub, you candians really stuck it to us to have a bigger budget.

what do ya think "BUB?"

just kiddin!

 

[claydogg]

^^^
Dude, your unnecessarily escalating things.
It's bound to go back and forth like a game of ping-pong if the invites to confrontation don't end.

I'll tell you what I don't care if you don't like how I write!
it's called freedom of speech!

I geuss I'll be the "Don Cherry" of the boards and speak my mind.
you can be like "Mclaine" trying to please everyone.

I don't care if someone puts a picture up, uses bold type, a video from youtube, or put's a spoiler on like you just did.


these are the boards so if you want to attack me "bub" for freedom of expression go for it!
then start ranting about eveyone "tagline" after there post too.

did you like the canadian comparsions I put out there just for you.

 

[The Guard]

i think the fact that it was a random act of violence gives frank more motivation to become the punisher than having his family specifically targeted and killed by the mob.

How do you figure?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

maybe your right!
I heard differently though.

but in any case, John Travola didn't help with the budger either.

I am right , and yeah Travolta did take a chunk of the budget, i think the actual shooting budget was something like $16-18 million.

 

[claydogg]

.....no, but see, that's what I mean. The mob. If I recall, the mob had some guy hanged upside down from a tree whom they were executing(or something) in Central Park. And then the Castles stumble upon the incident and get executed so that there are no witnesses. Right? Why would the mob do this in Central Park of all places?

you're right dude, I was refering to a old 80's "What if Comic"
my bad.

 

[claydogg]

I am right , and yeah Travolta did take a chunk of the budget, i think the actual shooting budget was something like $16-18 million.

so maybe he didn't.
I think if they could of shot in in Detriot or Clevland and saved some money and put some scences. from new york so it would be like there from there like there doing in the new movie.
the climate is the same no palm trees.

because Detriot is a warzone baby!

that's why the used some scences for transformers movie there.
and the had a huge budget.

 

[ObakeTora]

Maybe it's just me...but I found a calculated mob hit against Frank's entire family at a family reunion to be a pretty solid motivation for becoming The Punisher. And much more realistic than his family getting gunned down accidentally while they were in Central Park. It adds another layer to his character's motivation.

No, thats why i hate that version of the origin, why? It tells the audience that "those are the breaks you simply have to role with by joining the FBI." That origin pisses me off like Eric Cartman at Woodstock. Why? Because it detracts from the original source's intention. Castle served his country only to have his family murdered by those he sought to defend. When you really think about it, closely, it would move you. But that FBI crap, don't call yourself a Punisher fan and think that stupid ass idea would help the story. Punisher's story is an intricate puzzle, all of the peices need to be in place; all of them! Stay true to the source! Stevenson, looks older and rugged, with a few bits of make up he can look aged, haggard. We don't need to see a whole Full metal Jacket tribute(save that for the sequel!wouldnt that be ****ing cool?) just a slight mention. A reporter could say some ex nam vet guy or something. then we can get clues to his origin and only then will the audience gain an interest. I was so mad they used that FBI/Army storyline that movie didnt feel like the Punisher at all. Now I know how Al Bundy felt when Psycho Dad whent off the air. Jeeze.


[EDIT]

The guy strung up was Forrest Hunt. You need to read Punisher War Journal 3-4 vol 1 for his complete story. This is where Hector Montoya comes in, and you kind of feel bad for the guy, (kinda)

 

[citizenpain]

Quote:
i think the fact that it was a random act of violence gives frank more motivation to become the punisher than having his family specifically targeted and killed by the mob.

How do you figure?

if his family were killed by somebody specific, then it'd be more likely that he would just take revenge on the people responsible. that's basically what the 04 movie was. but if his family was killed by a random act of violence, he's not just gonna kill the people responsible, he's gonna make sure that sort of thing never happens again by waging a war on all criminals.

 

[claydogg]

No, thats why i hate that version of the origin, why? It tells the audience that "those are the breaks you simply have to role with by joining the FBI." That origin pisses me off like Eric Cartman at Woodstock. Why? Because it detracts from the original source's intention. Castle served his country only to have his family murdered by those he sought to defend. When you really think about it, closely, it would move you. But that FBI crap, don't call yourself a Punisher fan and think that stupid ass idea would help the story. Punisher's story is an intricate puzzle, all of the peices need to be in place; all of them! Stay true to the source! Stevenson, looks older and rugged, with a few bits of make up he can look aged, haggard. We don't need to see a whole Full metal Jacket tribute(save that for the sequel!wouldnt that be ****ing cool?) just a slight mention. A reporter could say some ex nam vet guy or something. then we can get clues to his origin and only then will the audience gain an interest. I was so mad they used that FBI/Army storyline that movie didnt feel like the Punisher at all. Now I know how Al Bundy felt when Psycho Dad whent off the air. Jeeze.


[EDIT]

I hear you my man but,
I don't think the studio would go for the old look becuase it's in prodution.
but "batman" a peaked human can still beat up people in his 60's
so why not the punisher?

on the other hand I 100% with you on the central park.
I don't care if it is a gang crossfire like the "what if" i read
or The Costa version, or the max.

the punisher should have a flashback to his family being killed in

Central park.

and forget the jamaca part of punisher in 2004 did exsist!

 

[The Guard]

if his family were killed by somebody specific, then it'd be more likely that he would just take revenge on the people responsible. that's basically what the 04 movie was. but if his family was killed by a random act of violence, he's not just gonna kill the people responsible, he's gonna make sure that sort of thing never happens again by waging a war on all criminals.

How do you figure?

 

[Kable24]

Think about it. If it's a random act of violence, you're more likely to hate people more who do this kind of thing. Whereas if it's someone specific, you just want to take your revenge out on the ones responsible.

 

[The Guard]

Why the hell would I hate someone who ACCIDENTALLY killed my family more than someone who did it on purpose? Where's the logic in that?

 

[Kable24]

It's not about hating them. it's about Punishing those. And I'm not saying someone who accidentally kills my family. it was an accident Castle's family stumbled on the gang slaying in the park. it wasn't an accident on what the Costa family did to the Castles. I wouldn't hate someone who accidentally killed my family. Because they truly did not mean my family harm, but if my wife stumbles into a robbery at a quickie-mart and gets blown away for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they Hell yeah, I'm going to want to Punish all kinds of scum who prey on the weaker. That's the significance of it all.

 

[Bubonic]

I think there is a big crossover.
Even if it is someone specific that kills your family, even after you've disposed of them, you could very well, and logically would hate others who perpetrates that sort of harm on other people.
Because you'll identify with that pain, and you'll see these other criminals in the same light as the ones that caused you harm.

Only difference I see in the possible motive of not really knowing who you and your family got mowed down by is that you'll continuously keep killing criminals so that maybe by pure statistical chance you'll eventually kill the ones that got you started in the first place.

 

[citizenpain]

How do you figure?

wow, you're cool.

It's not about hating them. it's about Punishing those. And I'm not saying someone who accidentally kills my family. it was an accident Castle's family stumbled on the gang slaying in the park. it wasn't an accident on what the Costa family did to the Castles. I wouldn't hate someone who accidentally killed my family. Because they truly did not mean my family harm, but if my wife stumbles into a robbery at a quickie-mart and gets blown away for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they Hell yeah, I'm going to want to Punish all kinds of scum who prey on the weaker. That's the significance of it all.

exactly.

 

[The Guard]

Ok, so the Costas killed his wife and offspring.

Howard Saint had his entire family wiped out.

I know who I'd hate more.

 

[Bubonic]

Ok, so the Costas killed his wife and offspring.

Howard Saint had his entire family wiped out.

I know who I'd hate more.

True, but cinematically it wasn't very effective imo.
I always like to bring up the example of Gladiator, personally I felt it was more gut-wrenching to see his family get done, felt sadder.

I thought they tried to compensate for crappy directing by going over the top and wiping out his whole family instead. The scene was funny, the dumb looking hitmen walking in the water, mowing everyone down.

It was a stupid piece in cinematic history, I had no sympathy. The relationship between the trio was badly acted anyways, hopefully the flashbacks in the new movie, if any, will be powerful.

 

[toneloak]

Ok, so the Costas killed his wife and offspring.

Howard Saint had his entire family wiped out.

I know who I'd hate more.

I don't think you understand the concept of The Punisher at all. The way his family was killed in the comics expressed the sentiment that it was that society had a disease and Punisher was the cure. It gave him a righteous cause to fight endlessly and ignore the pain. The 04 Pun was a revenge movie with hopes of birthing the real Punisher in sequels.

He's at war with the scum of the world when he lost his family it became more of the carpet bombing to his soldier mind. What we read or should see is his strike back at the army of crime. First and for most he is a soldier and that's his perspective. Murders and rapist are Charlie and it's time to gain some ground by deal out Punishment.

Killing his family with a mob hit is a revenge movie. Have you ever heard the quote "This is not revenge it's Punishment". The mob hit is traditional and simplistic without some great talent and dedication working to elevate that angel to a socially aware killing machine of war.

Sometimes I think people forget how truly important a great origin is.

 

[The Guard]

I don't think you understand the concept of The Punisher at all.

Pardon?

The way his family was killed in the comics expressed the sentiment that it was that society had a disease and Punisher was the cure.

And his family being wiped out by a mob hit instead of a mob hit gone wrong, and him seeing society fail to deal with the people responsible...these aren't also sympomatic of this disease?

I'm not saying that the Central Park origin isn't a good one, but the movie version has many of the same elements to it.

It gave him a righteous cause to fight endlessly and ignore the pain. The 04 Pun was a revenge movie with hopes of birthing the real Punisher in sequels.

And what would you have had it have been? Two hours of random criminal killings with no story? You didn't see the man trying to ignore hs pain during the movie?

"The real Punisher" is a man who kills criminals because he hates them, and he hates what they are allowed to get away with. I saw that man in THE PUNISHER. He was just a bit more creative with his punishments than he usually is.

He's at war with the scum of the world when he lost his family it became more of the carpet bombing to his soldier mind. What we read or should see is his strike back at the army of crime.

You did see that. I think some of you are just mad you didn't get to see it for more than what, 20, 30 minutes? And I get that, I wanted more punishing, too.

First and for most he is a soldier and that's his perspective.

You didn't see any of the "soldier" aspect in THE PUNISHER? I sure as hell did. He fought like a soldier, he planned like a soldier...that's all be had left.

Murders and rapist are Charlie and it's time to gain some ground by deal out Punishment.

Ok...yes, that is what The Punisher does over the course of his career. Th problem is...first he needed to deal with the people who murdered his family., and the people who were trying to kill him because he went after those who murdered his family. It's called "story". It's all well and good to have two hours of random criminals being murdered, but that's not so impressive a story.

Regardless, the end of the movie clearly indicates that The Punisher has arrived. That his one goal in life was to deal punishment to those society would not deal with.

"Those who evil to others...killers, rapists, psychos, sadists...will come to know me well. Frank Castle is dead. Call me...The Punisher."

Killing his family with a mob hit is a revenge movie. Have you ever heard the quote "This is not revenge it's Punishment". The mob hit is traditional and simplistic without some great talent and dedication working to elevate that angel to a socially aware killing machine of war.

I'll give you that there wasn't a whole lot of "social commentary" in the movie. This was his first battle, and you wanted to see his war...I get that. I imagine that will be the point of the sequel.

Sometimes I think people forget how truly important a great origin is.

I think you overestimate the greatness of Frank Castle's origin. The whole "My family/loved ones were killed" is an origin, sure, but it's a fairly cliche one. It's been done to death, and it's not neccessarily a great concept. It works because it gives the character a reason to do what he does, but I submit that The Punisher could exist without his family being killed, and that the character could be conceived as someone who simply believes that a full fledged war on crime is what needs to occur.

The greatness of The Punisher is found in the psychology behind the character and what it can say about our society, not neccessarily his origin.