National Day of Repentance! (Warning: Spoiler)

[ShadowBoxing]

Right.

You may want to check your facts on the faiths and beliefs of your founding fathers ...

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

Hey, that's a fun game. I can take quotes out of their context to...watch.

Thomas Jefferson called the Revelations of John the "ravings of a maniac" http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm. Suggested that Priests and Clergy be banned from running for public office. And declared their be a wall between Church and State.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson

“…Of all the nonsense and delusion which had ever passed through the mind of man, none had ever been more extravagant than the notions of absolutions, indelible characters, uninterrupted successions, and the rest of those fantastical ideas derived from the canon law; which has thrown a glare of mystery, sanctity, reverence, and right reverend eminence and holiness around the idea of a priest such that no mortal could deserve.”...John Adams

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our superstition, Christianity, one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and myths.”...Thomas Jefferson

“The purpose of the separation of Church and State is to keep forever from these shores, the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”...James Madison

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches." - Franklin

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " – Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." - Jefferson

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." - Jefferson

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Jefferson

"Revelation is a communication of something which the person to whom the thing id revealed did not know before. For if I have done, a thing, or seen it done, it needs no Revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write it. Revelation therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the Bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word Revelation and therefore is not the Word of God."-- Thomas Paine The Age of Reason

"[Religion is] The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason. I have never used any other, and I trust I never shall." - Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." From - The Age of Reason

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine

 

[Canadian Rider]

Ahh, but I never claimed to follow ALL of his ways. You really don't see the irony of someone acting holier than thou in a thread like this because they are a Christian and then in the same breath calling everyone "a bunch of f**kers"?

Again I pointed out they were people ... people say and do things that are not representative of their faith all the time. They choose language and do things that are not in following with the example of Christ. That is why we are "perfecting" the faith each day if we follow him. I do agree that perhaps the wording was not "classy" but perhaps reflects the "passion" the individual feels.

They also tried to instill portions of Paganism and Masonic beliefs into the constitution.

I don't deny that. They were trying to create a new system from scratch and used things that they felt were of value and had merit. They were people so see the above point.

Just because there is historical precedent of it doesn't make it any more right, as LogansRunt already pointed out with her slavery example.

Actually it does. One is a social issue. The other is a historical precedent of the bias of the government from the beginning of your country to a "religion". My point is that no one should honestly be surprised that the Christian faith is part of your government as my other examples pointed out.

Oh, I believe it is. The founders of this country came here to escape persecution over their beliefs and tried to create a country where people could believe what they wanted to without being harassed by their government. I'd say that spirit is very much alive in the sentiment about keeping church and state separated.

They installed a portion of their faith that they believed respected that all men are created equal and that class systems were wrong. They allowed people to opt out of activities and guaranteed a freedom to voice an opinion in opposition as you and others are doing here on the board.

Whether they are "right" in this actually proves that your system does allow people the right to not "have" to participate or "be forced" or "coerced" into participation.

They are actually representing the values of the voters who elected them ... maybe more people should vote for muslim candidates, agnostic Candidates, atheist Candidates and perhaps amend the consitution to exclude the verbage of God and do something instead a day of repentance ...

The point I was making is that the government of the day can change your "present" system, but the historical perspective shows that the country was founded with Faith tenets in the government and for the last 50+ years they have continued to "value" or "respect" the christian faith more.

 

[Logan's Runt]

They also tried to instill portions of Paganism and Masonic beliefs into the constitution.

I don't deny that. They were trying to create a new system from scratch and used things that they felt were of value and had merit. They were people so see the above point.

The issue I have here is that people have been arguing that the government was founded on Christian values, without mentioning all the other value sources, thus creating the impression that Christianity was the only/primary source and should continue to be so today.

 

[jaguarr]

The point I was making is that the government of the day can change your "present" system, but the historical perspective shows that the country was founded with Faith tenets in the government and for the last 50+ years they have continued to "value" or "respect" the christian faith more.

But...as you just acknowledged.....it was also founded with tenets from Pagan and Masonic beliefs with the intent that people could practice whatever religion they wish without being persecuted by their government. Just because it has been historically perverted in the last century by people who favor Christianity doesn't make it right and doesn't mean that it's not time for a change. Perhaps it's time the Pagan influences on our government's creation were given the limelight for awhile? LogansRunt is correct, though....it's our responsibility as U.S. citizens to speak up when we see what we perceive as inequality or favoritism towards a particular religious faction from our government. Yes, I'm aware that there is a history of that favoritism, but what you're not hearing us say is that it's time for a change from that. This is supposed to be the great Melting Pot, welcoming all cultures and creeds. What I've seen transpire in the last eight years in this country is a far cry from that and it disgusts me.

jag

 

[Canadian Rider]

Hey, that's a fun game. I can take quotes out of their context to...watch.

Thomas Jefferson called the Revelations of John the "ravings of a maniac" http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm. Suggested that Priests and Clergy be banned from running for public office. And declared their be a wall between Church and State.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson

“…Of all the nonsense and delusion which had ever passed through the mind of man, none had ever been more extravagant than the notions of absolutions, indelible characters, uninterrupted successions, and the rest of those fantastical ideas derived from the canon law; which has thrown a glare of mystery, sanctity, reverence, and right reverend eminence and holiness around the idea of a priest such that no mortal could deserve.”...John Adams

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our superstition, Christianity, one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and myths.”...Thomas Jefferson

“The purpose of the separation of Church and State is to keep forever from these shores, the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”...James Madison

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches." - Franklin

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " – Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." - Jefferson

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." - Jefferson

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Jefferson

"Revelation is a communication of something which the person to whom the thing id revealed did not know before. For if I have done, a thing, or seen it done, it needs no Revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write it. Revelation therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the Bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word Revelation and therefore is not the Word of God."-- Thomas Paine The Age of Reason

"[Religion is] The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason. I have never used any other, and I trust I never shall." - Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." From - The Age of Reason

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine

Whatever Shadow. You proved that someone can take a quote out of context. Pat yourself on the back.

If you study the biographies of your founding fathers and read everything they felt, said and did, while they wanted to avoid the battles and troubles that Europe faced because of "religion" they were (most of them) believers and wanted to ensure that while there was not "a faith" that was favored over others, they did acknowledge God.

If your country did seperate God and State, why did every president for the last 40+ years have "pastoral" advisors? I know you will conclude that they wanted to curry the "Right Wing" vote, but the biographies of these men show that they believed in Christ.

They may not have been perfect men in their walk of faith, but historically your country has demonstrated a "bias" to one faith over the other.

From the day it was founded to now.

 

[The Chairman]

Jefferson and Franklin were known to be critical of Christianity anyway, so those quotes provide little new.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The quotes are real. I doubt anyone actually makes up or fabricated hudreds of quotes just to back their sources.

But you can manipulate them out of context. Anyone who has read the letters of Jefferson and Adams and are familiar with the Federalist papers and the lifestyle of Washington know they weren't Christian. It would have been political suicide to outrightly state yourself as an aethiest, and deism is often referred to as "dressed up aethism". It's just a way to circumvent having no belief in God by saying "God's a clockmaker and has no further influence on the world". Keep in mind anyone who is a diest opennly rejects the divine quality of the Bible and Jesus being a "son" of the Lord. Also remember that Jefferson tore every page out of his Bible, despite having one in his house. Washington, on many occasions, refused to speak at or attend Church services. Adams himself was probably the most outspoken (next to Jefferson) when it came to removing religion from politics. And Benjamin Franklin I doubt had any belief in God as he frequently mocked Christians.

 

[Logan's Runt]

Just because there is historical precedent of it doesn't make it any more right, as LogansRunt already pointed out with her slavery example.

Actually it does. One is a social issue. The other is a historical precedent of the bias of the government from the beginning of your country to a "religion". My point is that no one should honestly be surprised that the Christian faith is part of your government as my other examples pointed out.

I wasn't surprised really, but I still argue that historical precedent and tradition do not make actions furthering those values necessarily morally right or good for the government to take. It would not be impossible for a (totally hypothetical) total theocracy to evolve over many many years into an entirely secular government, if it had the power of evolution as the American Government does.

 

[The Chairman]

But you can manipulate them out of context. Anyone who has read the letters of Jefferson and Adams and are familiar with the Federalist papers and the lifestyle of Washington know they weren't Christian. It would have been political suicide to outrightly state yourself as an aethiest, and deism is often referred to as "dressed up aethism". It's just a way to circumvent having no belief in God by saying "God's a clockmaker and has no further influence on the world". Keep in mind anyone who is a diest opennly rejects the divine quality of the Bible and Jesus being a "son" of the Lord. Also remember that Jefferson tore every page out of his Bible, despite having one in his house. Washington, on many occasions, refused to speak at or attend Church services. Adams himself was probably the most outspoken (next to Jefferson) when it came to removing religion from politics. And Benjamin Franklin I doubt had any belief in God as he frequently mocked Christians.

First of all, I know deists who strongly believe in God. So the dressed up atheism isn't entirely true.

Also, here's a quote from Franklin's own autobiography:

"I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity: that He made the world, and governed it by His providence."

 

[Canadian Rider]

But...as you just acknowledged.....it was also founded with tenets from Pagan and Masonic beliefs with the intent that people could practice whatever religion they wish without being persecuted by their government. Just because it has been historically perverted in the last century by people who favor Christianity doesn't make it right and doesn't mean that it's not time for a change. Perhaps it's time the Pagan influences on our government's creation were given the limelight for awhile? LogansRunt is correct, though....it's our responsibility as U.S. citizens to speak up when we see what we perceive as inequality or favoritism towards a particular religious faction from our government. Yes, I'm aware that there is a history of that favoritism, but what you're not hearing us say is that it's time for a change from that. This is supposed to be the great Melting Pot, welcoming all cultures and creeds. What I've seen transpire in the last eight years in this country is a far cry from that and it disgusts me.

jag

The real issue Jag is that your country has demonstrated recently the effects of one large majority voting for candidates who are then representatives of their faith to govern your country.

It is actually exactly what your government was created to do ...

If the "majority" truly voted for a non-partisan or non-biased "non-religious" government you would still have issues.

Shariya law for one example. It is a part of the muslim faith. Should it be allowed or not?

My point is that you may be disgusted, you may be annoyed, but from a historical persepective, your Country has a "history" of favouring one faith. That "favoritism" waxes and wanes ...

All you can do is vote ... that is how your system works.

 

[Logan's Runt]

If your country did seperate God and State, why did every president for the last 40+ years have "pastoral" advisors? I know you will conclude that they wanted to curry the "Right Wing" vote, but the biographies of these men show that they believed in Christ.

They may not have been perfect men in their walk of faith, but historically your country has demonstrated a "bias" to one faith over the other.

From the day it was founded to now.

Even more reason to rally for change.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Whatever Shadow. You proved that someone can take a quote out of context. Pat yourself on the back.

If you study the biographies of your founding fathers and read everything they felt, said and did, while they wanted to avoid the battles and troubles that Europe faced because of "religion" they were (most of them) believers and wanted to ensure that while there was not "a faith" that was favored over others, they did acknowledge God.

No, they didn't. Jefferson and Franklin opennly mocked religion, they only needed it to get the people to "get behind" the constitution. Jefferson even admitted religion had a moderating influence on the masses, but it was a tool to them. And no they do not cite God, as in a Christian God, in the constitution. That is flat out wrong.

If your country did seperate God and State, why did every president for the last 40+ years have "pastoral" advisors? I know you will conclude that they wanted to curry the "Right Wing" vote, but the biographies of these men show that they believed in Christ.

Why do we have a cabinet now that's appointed by the President. Why do the masses get to vote for the President rather than Congress appointing one? Those are things the Founding Fathers wished to avoid as well, and did. This nation, even politically has gone through many changes. They would see a modern day President as demogorgery, something they wrote at length about. Washington, Adams and Thomas Jefferson up through many of our Civil Presidents didn't believe in giving speeches as it mirrored a king addressing his subjects. That's why the current President has pastoral advisors, because the fabric of this country has changed.

 

[Logan's Runt]

My point is that you may be disgusted, you may be annoyed, but from a historical persepective, your Country has a "history" of favouring one faith. That "favoritism" waxes and wanes ...

All that is fine, except when actions taken in the historical precedent's name violate the law and constitution. Our current president has a tradition of violating/rewriting laws and this would be another example. Just because he has a tradition of violating and rewriting laws on whims doesn't make it right.

 

[Canadian Rider]

I wasn't surprised really, but I still argue that historical precedent and tradition do not make actions furthering those values necessarily morally right or good for the government to take. It would not be impossible for a (totally hypothetical) total theocracy to evolve over many many years into an entirely secular government, if it had the power of evolution as the American Government does.

The Government of your country should reflect the Majority of the people and their "values". If the majority of people who, for example, don't believe in God and think that religion should not be incorporated into any government activity voted for representatives who subscribed to that view, the government would change.

The "evolution" of your government is simply a result of the representatives doing just that -- representing the people's opinions.

I always find it interesting to see how many people don't like the government of the day in the country, but neither vote nor participate in the political process.

A true Theocracy might be seen in Communism and that perhaps is an example of a governmental system that does not acknowledge God.

I understand what you are saying, that just because they have traditionally valued one "belief" over another they shouldn't now, but that only proves that the people who are voting are sending their representatives.

If a Muslim was president do you think you would see a change? An Atheist? I wonder if the president was of that viewpoint or "belief" system would you see any changes?

It is curious to watch in any event.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Even more reason to rally for change.

Rallying doesn't change it ... voting does.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The Government of your country should reflect the Majority of the people and their "values".

That line of thinking is how we ended up with both slavery and later segregation.

 

[Canadian Rider]

No, they didn't. Jefferson and Franklin opennly mocked religion, they only needed it to get the people to "get behind" the constitution. Jefferson even admitted religion had a moderating influence on the masses, but it was a tool to them. And no they do not cite God, as in a Christian God, in the constitution. That is flat out wrong.

Why do we have a cabinet now that's appointed by the President. Why do the masses get to vote for the President rather than Congress appointing one? Those are things the Founding Fathers wished to avoid as well, and did. This nation, even politically has gone through many changes. They would see a modern day President as demogorgery, something they wrote at length about. Washington, Adams and Thomas Jefferson up through many of our Civil Presidents didn't believe in giving speeches as it mirrored a king addressing his subjects. That's why the current President has pastoral advisors, because the fabric of this country has changed.

It has changed over time as different representatives have been elected.

Then it changes again as different people are elected.

That is the process that they created. The freedom to adopt change and to reflect changes to social issues such as Slavery etc.

The point is that they have favoured Christianity over other religions, whether you agree with it or not.

That only way that changes Shadow is if enough representatives or a "majority" of representatives reflect or provide a basis for change.

You may not approve that the current administration is doing what they are doing ... so get involved and vote. That is your tool for change.

 

[Canadian Rider]

That line of thinking is how we ended up with both slavery and later segregation.

Really?

Slavery was established before your country. Segregation was a result of that practise.

I would ask that you have the ability to look back now and say that it is wrong because society has changed and that you have been raised in an era that has seen it is wrong.

If you had been born in that time, raised in a house that said it was right, you might have a different opinion, but perhaps not.

The point is your government is designed to reflect your people. I agree that the rights of those in any minority must be protected and that your bill of rights does that.

My point is that if you don't like the government of the day, then the only change that can happen is if you vote ...

 

[squeekness]

I think the only real problem I have with this idea of "Repentance Day" is George Bush getting up and acting like he is a real Christian. It seems to me that the only God he worships is money and power. He wants people to think he is religious and godly so they will vote for him, but his actions speak otherwise. Anyone who thinks Iraq wasn't really about oil is woefully mistaken.

 

[Logan's Runt]

The Government of your country should reflect the Majority of the people and their "values". If the majority of people who, for example, don't believe in God and think that religion should not be incorporated into any government activity voted for representatives who subscribed to that view, the government would change.

The "evolution" of your government is simply a result of the representatives doing just that -- representing the people's opinions.

I always find it interesting to see how many people don't like the government of the day in the country, but neither vote nor participate in the political process.

A true Theocracy might be seen in Communism and that perhaps is an example of a governmental system that does not acknowledge God.

I understand what you are saying, that just because they have traditionally valued one "belief" over another they shouldn't now, but that only proves that the people who are voting are sending their representatives.

If a Muslim was president do you think you would see a change? An Atheist? I wonder if the president was of that viewpoint or "belief" system would you see any changes?

It is curious to watch in any event.

I agree that the best way for the government to uphold the interests of the people is through the majority vote, however that is a question of 'values' and not 'religion.' Whether those 'values' are faith-based or not, it is different from endorsing a religion. Like I said earlier, it would not be hard for the government to construct a national holiday upholding the 'value' of self-evaluation on a moral structure without endorsing Christianity in the process.

Religion is not an opinion- it is a belief system. Its a fine line. An opinion refers to a situation or decision, where a belief system provides a structure for forming opinions. Thus the government should listen to the individual opinions of the majority and not try to skip a step and anticipate those opinions based on a belief system. Individual opinions on individual subjects vary greatly even within belief systems-- the decisions of the government need the freedom of decision by decision, it needs that flexibility. Not a rigid system.

It is indeed curious to watch.

 

[The Chairman]

I think the only real problem I have with this idea of "Repentance Day" is George Bush getting up and acting like he is a real Christian. It seems to me that the only God he worships is money and power. He wants people to think he is religious and godly so they will vote for him, but his actions speak otherwise. Anyone who thinks Iraq wasn't really about oil is woefully mistaken.

squeekness, The Voice Of Reason!

 

[Logan's Runt]

Rallying doesn't change it ... voting does.

I meant 'rally' in the sense of holding these kinds of debates in order to show people both sides and allow them to inform themselves when voting time comes around.

 

[Canadian Rider]

All that is fine, except when actions taken in the historical precedent's name violate the law and constitution. Our current president has a tradition of violating/rewriting laws and this would be another example. Just because he has a tradition of violating and rewriting laws on whims doesn't make it right.

True enough. The point of the thread is not whether the President is a doofus though. Or so I thought, but maybe I missed where it was going ...

A discussion of the government favouring or expressing a favoritism for one faith over another.

I was trying to suggest that it has always had that "bias".

That's all.

 

[Logan's Runt]

True enough. The point of the thread is not whether the President is a doofus though. Or so I thought, but maybe I missed where it was going ...

A discussion of the government favouring or expressing a favoritism for one faith over another.

I was trying to suggest that it has always had that "bias".

That's all.

I know, I was being a bit of a s****er on purpose there. t:

 

[ShadowBoxing]

It has changed over time as different representatives have been elected.

No, not quiet. It changed over time largely because of the change in technology and means of communication.

Then it changes again as different people are elected.

Are you really Canadian, because it shows you aren't American.

That is the process that they created. The freedom to adopt change and to reflect changes to social issues such as Slavery etc.

No, the system they created is quiet different from the one today. To say the anticipated this, or wanted this, or created a document that would lead to this is wrong. Unless Nostradamus was among the founding fathers they did not predict the coming of events like the Civil War and the Nuclear Age and how that would affect the politics of this nation.

The point is that they have favoured Christianity over other religions, whether you agree with it or not.

That's where you're wrong. To claim they favored one religion over another is absolutely incorrect. I think you should have read my quotes more closely. Jefferson, Adams and Washington all placed Christianity in the same league as myth and superstitions of the Roman and Greek empires. They did not see it as being any higher or more correct than any other religion. The fact that they chose deism, a very vague and often secular belief structure and took from writings of Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, and Paine should indicate to you they didn't hold that religion in any high esteem. Jefferson owned a Bible yes, but like most of the Founding Fathers he also owned a Quran, Buddhist and Hindu texts and even classical texts from Rome and Greece. They were intellectuals. They studied sh**. I studied the Bible in college, it doesn't make me a Christian.

That only way that changes Shadow is if enough representatives or a "majority" of representatives reflect or provide a basis for change.

The last time I checked both executive order still exists and the judicial system can overturn unconstitional laws.

You may not approve that the current administration is doing what they are doing ... so get involved and vote. That is your tool for change.

Uhhhh....I do. You don't.