National Day of Repentance! (Warning: Spoiler)

[squeekness]

squeekness, The Voice Of Reason!

I do try. I was just disgusted that in the last election, Bush got folks so riled up over the gay marriage issue that more important things got lost, the Iraq war for one. I don't for one minute believe that Bush believes as he should as a Christian. If that was true then so much more would have been done in New Orleans for the poor and homeless. You can call Clinton a sinner as much as you like, but he would have handled Katrina so much differently.

 

[Canadian Rider]

I meant 'rally' in the sense of holding these kinds of debates in order to show people both sides and allow them to inform themselves when voting time comes around.

My apologies Logan.

I guess I am constantly amazed by the passion people have for the dialogue, but when the day for voting comes they are absent from the process.

I don't think governments should be influenced by "religion" or "faith" based thinking, please don't get me wrong.

It always amazes me that people will discuss this type of subject but then not use the very thing that leads to change ... the one power they truly have. A vote.

Although I must admit that even George W. has me doubting that when he manages to "win" the way he does ...

I just want y'all to be safe and happy and live in peace in your country. It may seem strange to some of you, but my prayer (for what you think that is worth) is that no matter who is in office in your country, that they exhibit the qualities of a good leader, regardless of their personal faith.

That your country would have someone who helps you individually and as a nation to be free and happy and be secure. You are a great neighbour and though Shadow and Wil always debate with me, I do love you guys.

After all, Jesus did tell me to love my neighbours as I love myself. And you all are my neighbours.

That's all. :heart:

 

[Canadian Rider]

I do try. I was just disgusted that in the last election, Bush got folks so riled up over the gay marriage issue that more important things got lost, the Iraq war for one. I don't for one minute believe that Bush believes as he should as a Christian. If that was true then so much more would have been done in New Orleans for the poor and homeless. You can call Clinton a sinner as much as you like, but he would have handled Katrina so much differently.

It is easy to say squeekness that Bill would have done a better job.

The problem with Katrina as I witnessed what happened is that the people who normally turn to, the national guard, were all over in Iraq fighting a war, which is exactly where they shouldn't have been at that time.

It broke my heart and continues to that your country is suffering so much on so many issues and that so many people are being impacted by poor decisions and poor leadership ...

 

[Canadian Rider]

The issue I have here is that people have been arguing that the government was founded on Christian values, without mentioning all the other value sources, thus creating the impression that Christianity was the only/primary source and should continue to be so today.

True enough Logan.

The other groups that had influence are too quiet!

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

If Bush wants to have a special little day where he can finally repent of all the lies he's told and all the innocent people he's killed, that's great...as long as he remembers when you repent of something, it doesn't mean that you're just saying "Sorry, My bad. ". It means you are deciding to turn away from the wrongs you've been commiting.

So yeah, a big, phony "feel-good" hunk of bulloney we have here.

 

[Logan's Runt]

My apologies Logan.

I guess I am constantly amazed by the passion people have for the dialogue, but when the day for voting comes they are absent from the process.

I don't think governments should be influenced by "religion" or "faith" based thinking, please don't get me wrong.

It always amazes me that people will discuss this type of subject but then not use the very thing that leads to change ... the one power they truly have. A vote.

Although I must admit that even George W. has me doubting that when he manages to "win" the way he does ...

I just want y'all to be safe and happy and live in peace in your country. It may seem strange to some of you, but my prayer (for what you think that is worth) is that no matter who is in office in your country, that they exhibit the qualities of a good leader, regardless of their personal faith.

That your country would have someone who helps you individually and as a nation to be free and happy and be secure. You are a great neighbour and though Shadow and Wil always debate with me, I do love you guys.

After all, Jesus did tell me to love my neighbours as I love myself. And you all are my neighbours.

That's all. :heart:

I am perpetually amazed by people not voting as well, when that is the only action most can take. However, I do understand how one could get it into one's head that it doesn't really make a difference, however wrong that may be.

I don't have you wrong on the government and the faith based thinking issue, I just wanted to make some distinctions.

Aye, I worry about conspiracies within government leading to the decisions not truly representing the majority. I don't have the energy for conspiracy theory research, though.

And it is noble and kind of you to be passionate about the wellbeing of a country that is not your own. I also do appreciate your prayers, whether I personally believe in their power in regards to a god or not- I do believe in their power of representing good intentions in humanity which is a hopeful thing.

Love is never a bad thing, when it truly is love.

Thanks for respectfully debating with me. t::heart:

 

[squeekness]

If Bush wants to have a special little day where he can finally repent of all the lies he's told and all the innocent people he's killed, that's great...as long as he remembers when you repent of something, it doesn't mean that you're just saying "Sorry, My bad. ". It means you are deciding to turn away from the wrongs you've been commiting.

So yeah, a big, phony "feel-good" hunk of bulloney we have here.

That is so true. Repentance isn't real without an honest change of heart to go with it.

 

[Logan's Runt]

True enough Logan.

The other groups that had influence are too quiet!

Haha, aye, its hard to get a word in edgewise when other people are yelling!

 

[Canadian Rider]

No, not quiet. It changed over time largely because of the change in technology and means of communication.

Are you really Canadian, because it shows you aren't American.

No, the system they created is quiet different from the one today. To say the anticipated this, or wanted this, or created a document that would lead to this is wrong. Unless Nostradamus was among the founding fathers they did not predict the coming of events like the Civil War and the Nuclear Age and how that would affect the politics of this nation.

That's where you're wrong. To claim they favored one religion over another is absolutely incorrect. I think you should have read my quotes more closely. Jefferson, Adams and Washington all placed Christianity in the same league as myth and superstitions of the Roman and Greek empires. They did not see it as being any higher or more correct than any other religion. The fact that they chose deism, a very vague and often secular belief structure and took from writings of Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, and Paine should indicate to you they didn't hold that religion in any high esteem. Jefferson owned a Bible yes, but like most of the Founding Fathers he also owned a Quran, Buddhist and Hindu texts and even classical texts from Rome and Greece. They were intellectuals. They studied sh**. I studied the Bible in college, it doesn't make me a Christian.

The last time I checked both executive order still exists and the judicial system can overturn unconstitional laws.

Uhhhh....I do. You don't.

All your above points are interesting. I would agree that some of your founding fathers were not Christian, but I never said all. I also said that they installed "tenets" of the faith based on the positive things that were within the faith. I did not say they installed christianity in total.

I would say however that if society changes, technology changes and values change ... and yet you still elected all white, all racist, all homophobic (hmmm are they still?) representatives to your government the laws and statues of your government would not have changed.

Would you agree with that?

Bush is clearly showing how to overturn established laws by electing judges to the courts that will "overturn" previous decisions.

The law is not a tool by itself ... would you agree with that?

thanks for a great debate Shadow. I missed you

 

[squeekness]

It is easy to say squeekness that Bill would have done a better job.

The problem with Katrina as I witnessed what happened is that the people who normally turn to, the national guard, were all over in Iraq fighting a war, which is exactly where they shouldn't have been at that time.

It broke my heart and continues to that your country is suffering so much on so many issues and that so many people are being impacted by poor decisions and poor leadership ...

I know what you're saying, it's just that the delay of concern Bush seemed to have for New Orleans is indiciative of some small amount of prejudice or something.

I was also stunned at how little people helped each other or even turned on one another instead. Folks went on and on about how in New York, when the Towers fell, how strangers were so quick to aid one another. That didn't seem to happen here and I am not sure why. There were too few stories about people helping the stricken.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Haha, aye, its hard to get a word in edgewise when other people are yelling!

Quote of the day Logan.

That is the one quality that I admire most about Christ. While many followers of his are screamers, my favorite example is when he said nothing and drew in the sand ... but that I knew what he wrote that day.

I do appreciate a debate and I love your country and mine.

I enjoy being here at SHH and debating. It is great to share and quietly learn and be challenged.

Shadow and Wil are responsible for deep thinking on my part on a consistent basis and I appreciate them, you and others who challenge me to be more like the man/god I follow.

In any event I just wish people would use the right that so many men and women have died to protect ... the power of the vote.

Regardless of what anyone believes, not voting just makes me sad when I think that it is our chance to make change or ensure that we have people who protect those who are vulnerable or could be impacted by those who abuse their power.

 

[Canadian Rider]

If Bush wants to have a special little day where he can finally repent of all the lies he's told and all the innocent people he's killed, that's great...as long as he remembers when you repent of something, it doesn't mean that you're just saying "Sorry, My bad. ". It means you are deciding to turn away from the wrongs you've been commiting.

So yeah, a big, phony "feel-good" hunk of bulloney we have here.

Wil you are a good man. I am constantly surprised by how you can so eloquently describe the situation so precisely.

Thanks.

you sure you gave up on God? I wonder sometimes, not to be pushy or doubt, but the spirit of your words just seems like he is still within you.

just saying ...

 

[Canadian Rider]

I know what you're saying, it's just that the delay of concern Bush seemed to have for New Orleans is indiciative of some small amount of prejudice or something.

I was also stunned at how little people helped each other or even turned on one another instead. Folks went on and on about how in New York, when the Towers fell, how strangers were so quick to aid one another. That didn't seem to happen here and I am not sure why. There were too few stories about people helping the stricken.

Indeed. The prejudice seemed to shine out somehow. The whole event was a trajedy and what p*ssed me off is when somebody said that it was an act of God and that he was punishing those people or your country.

A poster reminded me that only God can say what is or isn't his act and if he did something to punish. We are so quick to judge and be prejudiced in so many ways Squeek.

It was sad all around ... just sad.

 

[The Chairman]

We got to New Orleans in 4 days, yet it took us a mere 2 to get to the Tsunami.

Bush is a disgrace to America as well as Christianity. Did anyone see the video of the woman saying she truly feels like God is in The White House in regards to Bush? I didn't, but it sound so sad that people think that.

A man of Christ would not send thousands of innocent young men and women to die senselessy to further his own wealth and personal agenda.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Wil you are a good man. I am constantly surprised by how you can so eloquently describe the situation so precisely.

Thanks.

you sure you gave up on God? I wonder sometimes, not to be pushy or doubt, but the spirit of your words just seems like he is still within you.

just saying ...

I haven't "given up on God".
I very strongly believe in the Creator of the Universe.
It's the Bible I despise.

 

[Canadian Rider]

We got to New Orleans in 4 days, yet it took us a mere 2 to get to the Tsunami.

Bush is a disgrace to America as well as Christianity. Did anyone see the video of the woman saying she truly feels like God is in The White House in regards to Bush? I didn't, but it sound so sad that people think that.

A man of Christ would not send thousands of innocent young men and women to die senselessy to further his own wealth and personal agenda.

Amen.

 

[Canadian Rider]

I haven't "given up on God".
I very strongly believe in the Creator of the Universe.
It's the Bible I despise.

Fair enough big guy.

I love you either way. :heart:

 

[The Chairman]

I'm reading The Bible right now, and I am deeply enjoying it, but there are definitely a few things that are a bit disheartening, such as the entire passage in Exodus condoning slavery and the condemation of homosexuality.

Most people are aware of my liberal view of The Bible anyway.

 

[The Chairman]

Fair enough big guy.

I love you either way. :heart:

Wil is indeed awesome.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

All your above points are interesting. I would agree that some of your founding fathers were not Christian, but I never said all. I also said that they installed "tenets" of the faith based on the positive things that were within the faith. I did not say they installed christianity in total.

What tenents, not killing and stealing? Most rational people come to those conclusions to. However we don't outlaw divorce, don't prosecute adulterers, and don't beat down your door if you erect false idols. And blasphemy is the highest crime in Christianity, but we don't care about it in this country. Seems like you're painting things that aren't there.

I would say however that if society changes, technology changes and values change ... and yet you still elected all white

Still most of our politicians are white. In fact I believe it's still only 14 congressmen and 1 Senator are of African American descent.

all racist, all homophobic (hmmm are they still?) representatives to your government the laws and statues of your government would not have changed.

Segregation ended under an all white (for the most part), all racist Government. Lyndon Baines Johnson was the only politician really pushing against it as a President, but before him the Judicial system had declared much of the segregation laws unconstitutional...and they were all appointed by largely racist politicians. So, no, majority does not rule in this country. Politicians aren't suppose to do what the majority thinks is right, they are suppose to do what is right. period. And it's when they take the latter position that things change.

Would you agree with that?

No, I just explained why.

Bush is clearly showing how to overturn established laws by electing judges to the courts that will "overturn" previous decisions.

You don't elect Judges, you appoint them. Congress merely approves the appointment. And as for overturning elected laws with Judges, that doesn't always work.

The law is not a tool by itself ... would you agree with that?

The law is a tool by itself, that's the point of laws.

 

[Canadian Rider]

I'm reading The Bible right now, and I am deeply enjoying it, but there are definitely a few things that are a bit disheartening, such as the entire passage in Exodus condoning slavery and the condemation of homosexuality.

Most people are aware of my liberal view of The Bible anyway.

Understood.

I just wish the best for all y'all. It saddens me to see my neighbour suffering the way you all do in light of the current situation.

So many people dying outside of your country, but also so many in your country that are suffering because of poverty, lack of health care, lack of education, prejudice etc.

The same problems we have in Canada by the way ...

The human condition is just disappointing to me and I wish that more would be done by those that are "elected" to "make things better."

Seeing the suffering around the world, in your country and mine makes me sad, mad and upset.

I think my view on the world is also known here t:

 

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I know what you're saying, it's just that the delay of concern Bush seemed to have for New Orleans is indiciative of some small amount of prejudice or something.

Prejudice? Against what? Poor people?

It was nothing more than a complete breakdown of emergency preparedness on the government level as well as a lack of foresight into what could happen beforehand. It wasn't Bush not caring about black people or some other nonsense. Yes, Bush is an idiot, but that was all it was. I hate it when people inject yet more unnecessary claims of racism or discrimination or whatever else into a situation that is/was bad enough on its own.

 

[squeekness]

Prejudice? Against what? Poor people?

It was nothing more than a complete breakdown of emergency preparedness on the government level as well as a lack of foresight into what could happen beforehand. It wasn't Bush not caring about black people or some other nonsense. Yes, Bush is an idiot, but that was all it was. I hate it when people inject yet more unnecessary claims of racism or discrimination or whatever else into a situation that is/was bad enough on its own.

I think there was some prejudice against poor people, or perhaps those he saw that had no value to him. I think the Tsunami response was handled so quickly because we needed a good "international face" after the war. I don't think any other President would have taken so long to get to New Orleans as he did. I admit I could could be wrong, but that's what I saw and felt.

 

[Canadian Rider]

What tenents, not killing and stealing? Most rational people come to those conclusions to. However we don't outlaw divorce, don't prosecute adulterers, and don't beat down your door if you erect false idols. And blasphemy is the highest crime in Christianity, but we don't care about it in this country. Seems like you're painting things that aren't there.

Still most of our politicians are white. In fact I believe it's still only 14 congressmen and 1 Senator are of African American descent.

Segregation ended under an all white (for the most part), all racist Government. Lyndon Baines Johnson was the only politician really pushing against it as a President, but before him the Judicial system had declared much of the segregation laws unconstitutional...and they were all appointed by largely racist politicians. So, no, majority does not rule in this country. Politicians aren't suppose to do what the majority thinks is right, they are suppose to do what is right. period. And it's when they take the latter position that things change.

No, I just explained why.

You don't elect Judges, you appoint them. Congress merely approves the appointment. And as for overturning elected laws with Judges, that doesn't always work.

The law is a tool by itself, that's the point of laws.

The law should be a tool by itself but if Bush's selections get Roe v. Wade overturned? Is that the law working, Bush working, the majority working or common sense working?

As for the things put in by the FF, I would suggest that recognizing freedom and that God was a Divine Authority, but that the country should be a place where people were free to worship and not be prosecuted for not believing in a "faith" is actually a tenet of the christian faith, as opposed to say a belief system that would outlaw religion all together, or say that you must believe in Islam or die by the sword. That kind of thing.

Rational people? who decides what is or is not rational? That is a whole other discussion Shadow.

Your evaluation of the elected officials is a good point. They may be white and racist, but at least they represent the way the people of their consituency are wanting them to represent them. I would concede that the representative themself is not the issue, but rather that the elected official represents the views of their people. In your various states you would see representation that would be accurate for the beliefs of that state, ie the differences between say Vermont and Arkansas and say Utah.

Do you believe that the elected officials did what was right? Or would you concede that they did what was going to get them elected next term?

It is certainly an interesting situation and discussion.

I always think it is easy for us to look back and see how views and society changed and how people should have acted in the past from our perspective.

A whole thread could simply be created to discuss what is "right" ...

 

[Canadian Rider]

Prejudice? Against what? Poor people?

It was nothing more than a complete breakdown of emergency preparedness on the government level as well as a lack of foresight into what could happen beforehand. It wasn't Bush not caring about black people or some other nonsense. Yes, Bush is an idiot, but that was all it was. I hate it when people inject yet more unnecessary claims of racism or discrimination or whatever else into a situation that is/was bad enough on its own.

Squeekness had a good comparison Solid.

Why was the reaction to 9/11 so much greater and better than that to Katrina?

If Katrina was after the Twin Towers attack should they have not been better prepared? Just wondering.

I agree that the Tsunami response was more for international face saving, which is a whole other discussion.