Netflix's The Witcher - General Discussion Thread

[Lilbaz]

I don't understand how this is ok as long as it "respects" the story when the story is based on Slavic lore . Why race bend for sake of race bend? Black Panther was a perfect example of an African story that represented Africans, and Crazy Rich Asian is the perfect Asian American/Singaporean story that did as much. If you want more representation, then do stories that at it's core represents those you want represented. Don't race bend for the lulz, and that goes both ways.

Because this world has no common sense and seems to want to piss off people on both sides or no side off. Driving them further away from the center of politics.

Political or money decision i'm not sure. But 20m people bought witcher 3 so they are probably not going to be happy. As are a lot of eastern europeans.

If netflix wanted true diversity adapt kintu or something. A lot of people would love to see african fantasy.

 

[Lilbaz]

I don't see how casting can be private when they gotta send out a casting call for specific races

Alleged leak from the drama school they were trying to cast from.

 

[Dilly Dilly]

Alleged leak from the drama school they were trying to cast from.

Regardless EVENTUALLY an official casting call will go out like they always do. This was gonna come out sooner or later

 

[OutOfBoose]

I don't understand how this is ok as long as it "respects" the story when the story is based on Slavic lore . Why race bend for sake of race bend? Black Panther was a perfect example of an African story that represented Africans, and Crazy Rich Asian is the perfect Asian American/Singaporean story that did as much. If you want more representation, then do stories that at it's core represents those you want represented. Don't race bend for the lulz, and that goes both ways.

I also don't need a bunch of Caucasian characters in Mulan to feel included. I'll just watch Mulan the way it is. Chinese story.

 

[Da-Scribe]

So you stating slav has no relation to the word slave is speculation?

Does it change the fact that they have an argument for cultural appropriation?

For the bye i think cultural appropriation is a bs term and that cultures mix and evolve together.

Cultures mixing and evolving together is not something that the term cultural appropriation argues against, fyi. Appropriation is a form of colonialism and oppression. That's something entirely separate from say, cultural exchange. Which is what you are describing.

 

[Dilly Dilly]

Theres still people whining about Danny Rand being White even with that being Comic accurate since its a fish out of water tale lol

 

[Lilbaz]

Cultures mixing and evolving together is not something that the term cultural appropriation argues against, fyi. Appropriation is a form of colonialism and oppression. That's something entirely separate from say, cultural exchange. Which is what you are describing.

So america taking polish culture then changing to suit their cultural ideals is not cultural appropriation?

 

[DKDetective]

Theres still people whining about Danny Rand being White even with that being Comic accurate since its a fish out of water tale lol

But that is because Danny's story is problematic to begin with. It is your cliched white saviour story where a white protagonist is portrayed as a messianic figure who often learns something about him or herself in the course of rescuing characters of color. The white hero adopts the people of colour's culture and becomes their leader and greatest warrior. There are clear cultural appropriation issues with such a story format. If Danny was made an Asian-American character as many proposed, it would avoid those cliches. Instead of an unsettling white saviour undercurrent, it could become a story about rediscovering one's culture or roots in the face of assimilation, etc.

 

[Lilbaz]

But that is because Danny's story is problematic to begin with. It is your cliched white saviour story where a white protagonist is portrayed as a messianic figure who often learns something about him or herself in the course of rescuing characters of color. The white hero adopts the people of colour's culture and becomes their leader and greatest warrior. There are clear cultural appropriation issues with such a story format. If Danny was made an Asian-American character as many proposed, it would avoid those cliches. Instead of an unsettling white saviour undercurrent, it could become a story about rediscovering one's culture or roots in the face of assimilation, etc.

Do other cultures not have a similar story just in the opposite?

Why can a culture (whatever colour) not have these stories?

Do you find them offensive?

 

[DKDetective]

Do other cultures not have a similar story just in the opposite?

Why can a culture (whatever colour) not have these stories?

Do you find them offensive?

It is a particular problem in Western culture because

Do other cultures not have a similar story just in the opposite?

Why can a culture (whatever colour) not have these stories?

Do you find them offensive?

It is particular to white Amero-European literature and film. This type of narrative became prevalent in the 19th century and is closely associated with white global colonialism and imperialism. The white-savior narrative in film as essentially racist, because the films in that genre are thematic variations of a single narrative about the lives of people of colour being oppressed by "bad white people". In the narrative, the people of colour only achieve their physical freedom, social independence, and economic self-sufficiency with "the offices of good white people". It undermines the agency and heroic character of the people of colour. They have to rely on a white hero to rescue them from their oppression. It is offensive as a result.

If there are analogous narratives in other cultures, which I doubt, those cultures do not have the same history of global colonialism and imperialism as white people so the story would not necessarily have the same negative implications.

 

[TheVileOne]

Except in Witcher...there is no white savior narrative.

 

[Dilly Dilly]

But that is because Danny's story is problematic to begin with

It is only a problem in your opinion & those that think like you simply because you want pandering for the sake of it. If you dont like it simply dont watch that stuff like many fans will be doing with The Witcher on Netflix

 

[Da-Scribe]

So america taking polish culture then changing to suit their cultural ideals is not cultural appropriation?

That's not at all what I was addressing. You said the term cultural appropriation was BS and I merely explained why it wasn't.

 

[TheVileOne]

But that is because Danny's story is problematic to begin with. It is your cliched white saviour story where a white protagonist is portrayed as a messianic figure who often learns something about him or herself in the course of rescuing characters of color. The white hero adopts the people of colour's culture and becomes their leader and greatest warrior. There are clear cultural appropriation issues with such a story format. If Danny was made an Asian-American character as many proposed, it would avoid those cliches. Instead of an unsettling white saviour undercurrent, it could become a story about rediscovering one's culture or roots in the face of assimilation, etc.

Eh Danny's not the leader of K'un L'un. He's one of a long line of different people who have held the title of Iron Fist. It's generational.

I mean Danny Rand isn't the only white superhero to have a messiah complex. Look at Batman and Superman. No one complains about Batman training in Asia and adopting their culture and fighting styles and disciplines in order to save Gotham City. You can very much argue Batman is a white savior when you look at things like Night of the Ninja in B:TAS, where you literally have Batman representing his martial arts teachers to fight a ninja and speaking in Japanese, and calling himself a "samurai."

Some people even complained about the video game NIOH which features a white Brit in the central protagonist role set in Japan. Nioh was made by Japanese developers. It was designed in Japan. Yet it starts a White British character. The character is based on the real-life historical figure William Adams though. Go look him up on Wikipedia.

Now if Japanese developers and designers want to make a video game that's set in Japan that stars William Adams in a FICTIONAL SETTING...what is wrong with that? I also wouldn't consider Nioh a white savior story either.

 

[Dilly Dilly]

Eh Danny's not the leader of K'un L'un. He's one of a long line of different people who have held the title of Iron Fist. It's generational.

I mean Danny Rand isn't the only white superhero to have a messiah complex. Look at Batman and Superman. No one complains about Batman training in Asia and adopting their culture and fighting styles and disciplines in order to save Gotham City. You can very much argue Batman is a white savior when you look at things like Night of the Ninja in B:TAS, where you literally have Batman representing his martial arts teachers to fight a ninja and speaking in Japanese, and calling himself a "samurai."

Some people even complained about the video game NIOH which features a white Brit in the central protagonist role set in Japan. Nioh was made by Japanese developers. It was designed in Japan. Yet it starts a White British character. The character is based on the real-life historical figure William Adams though. Go look him up on Wikipedia.

Now if Japanese developers and designers want to make a video game that's set in Japan that stars William Adams in a FICTIONAL SETTING...what is wrong with that? I also wouldn't consider Nioh a white savior story either.

That user likely never sees stuff like The Last Samurai

 

[Lilbaz]

It is a particular problem in Western culture because

It is particular to white Amero-European literature and film. This type of narrative became prevalent in the 19th century and is closely associated with white global colonialism and imperialism. The white-savior narrative in film as essentially racist, because the films in that genre are thematic variations of a single narrative about the lives of people of colour being oppressed by "bad white people". In the narrative, the people of colour only achieve their physical freedom, social independence, and economic self-sufficiency with "the offices of good white people". It undermines the agency and heroic character of the people of colour. They have to rely on a white hero to rescue them from their oppression. It is offensive as a result.

If there are analogous narratives in other cultures, which I doubt, those cultures do not have the same history of global colonialism and imperialism as white people so the story would not necessarily have the same negative implications.

Fair enough. But why should i or the polish fans pay the price for that just because of our skin colour?

I come from an irish family, we and the polish were probably just as much victims of colonialism as anyone else, we certainly weren't involved in the slave trade, just victims.

Are we saying that all people are determined by skin colour? Black people are black if they are nigerian, somalian or west indian? White are white if they are russian, english or greek? Asians whether they are indian, japanese or chinese etc...?

 

[TheVileOne]

I think the reason some of this is happening is because it's perceived to make up for past wrongs.

That's why the whole James Bond thing comes up. If James Bond is a person of color or a woman, that will make up for all the perceived past wrongs of the franchise.

 

[DKDetective]

Fair enough. But why should i or the polish fans pay the price for that just because of our skin colour?

I come from an irish family, we and the polish were probably just as much victims of colonialism as anyone else, we certainly weren't involved in the slave trade, just victims.

Are we saying that all people are determined by skin colour? Black people are black if they are nigerian, somalian or west indian? White are white if they are russian, english or greek? Asians whether they are indian, japanese or chinese etc...?

No, not all. I don't think characters in The Witcher should be race changed. I've posted about that extensively in this thread. I specifically stated that the thinly veiled Eastern European/Slavic setting and culture of the The Witcher is underrepresented in Western pop culture and should be given a chance. Eastern Europeans are typically villianized as the antagonists of spy stories and the scarier replacement for the Italian Mob in crime stories. I was just responding to the false equivalence of Danny Rand's story. There were legitimate reasons for suggesting changes to that character.

 

[Dilly Dilly]

I think the reason some of this is happening is because it's perceived to make up for past wrongs.

That's why the whole James Bond thing comes up. If James Bond is a person of color or a woman, that will make up for all the perceived past wrongs of the franchise.

But then when changes like that causes something to fail that makes it a moot point

 

[Lilbaz]

No, not all. I don't think characters in The Witcher should be race changed. I've posted about that extensively in this thread. I specifically stated that the thinly veiled Eastern European/Slavic setting and culture of the The Witcher is underrepresented in Western pop culture and should be given a chance. Eastern Europeans are typically villianized as the antagonists of spy stories and the scarier replacement for the Italian Mob in crime stories. I was just responding to the false equivalence of Danny Rand's story. There were legitimate reasons for suggesting changes to that character.

My bad. Had a couple and it's hard tracking multiple conversations.

At the end of the day i think that we'd all agree that we could have great stories from all cultures and not have to worry about what colour/sex each character is as everyone would be represented and look fantastic.

 

[Enriquespy]

This seems important to you for some reason, Dilly Dilly.

What is your investment in this?

 

[DKDetective]

Except in Witcher...there is no white savior narrative.

Never said it was. I distinguishing between the false comparison of the Witcher situation to very appropriate concerns about the need to update Danny Rand due to legitimate concerns about a "white saviour" narrative.

It is only a problem in your opinion & those that think like you simply because you want pandering for the sake of it. If you dont like it simply dont watch that stuff like many fans will be doing with The Witcher on Netflix

Don't presume to know what I am thinking or that I want "pandering". If you actually read this thread a few pages ago, you would find my detailed post explaining why it is significant that the Northeastern European culture and visual of The Witcher be preserved and that the key characters should remain white European as a result. Grow up and learn to have a respectful intellectual debate with someone.

Eh Danny's not the leader of K'un L'un. He's one of a long line of different people who have held the title of Iron Fist. It's generational. [...}

Now if Japanese developers and designers want to make a video game that's set in Japan that stars William Adams in a FICTIONAL SETTING...what is wrong with that? I also wouldn't consider Nioh a white savior story either.

The "white saviour" trope is not that limited. My original post should have said greatest warrior AND/OR leader. Batman is different because he goes around the world and learns from many cultures to become a hero to his own people. He doesn't adopt the ninja ways and becomes the hero of some Asian city. That is the key difference. The white saviour critique is about the hero becoming the saviour to the people whose way they have adopted. Danny becomes the mystical guardian of K'un L'un. I'm not saying that the white saviour critique is perfect or valid, but it is major theme in post-modern criticism of Western culture and has at least some application to Iron Fist. The Witcher is completely different which is why I tried to explain the difference.

That user likely never sees stuff like The Last Samurai

The Last Samurai is one of worst examples of the trope and perpetuates a ridiculous "noble savage" myth with respect to late Shogunate Japan. The widely accepted wisdom with respect to Japanese history is that the Shogunate was corrupt, backwards, and oppressive by the 19th century. Western influence and the opening of Japan allowed the Emperor to regain control from the samurai and enact democratic reforms improving the lives of Japanese people generally. (This is verbatim from my friend with a PhD in East Asian History.)

 

[TheVileOne]

Never said it was. I distinguishing between the false comparison of the Witcher situation to very appropriate concerns about the need to update Danny Rand due to legitimate concerns about a "white saviour" narrative.


Don't presume to know what I am thinking or that I want "pandering". If you actually read this thread a few pages ago, you would find my detailed post explaining why it is significant that the Northeastern European culture and visual of The Witcher be preserved and that the key characters should remain white European as a result. Grow up and learn to have a respectful intellectual debate with someone.

The "white saviour" trope is not that limited. My original post should have said greatest warrior AND/OR leader. Batman is different because he goes around the world and learns from many cultures to become a hero to his own people. He doesn't adopt the ninja ways and becomes the hero of some Asian city. That is the key difference. The white saviour critique is about the hero becoming the saviour to the people whose way they have adopted. Danny becomes the mystical guardian of K'un L'un. I'm not saying that the white saviour critique is perfect or valid, but it is major theme in post-modern criticism of Western culture and has at least some application to Iron Fist. The Witcher is completely different which is why I tried to explain the difference.

Except Danny Rand is generally based in New York City and not K'un L'un...so...Also this:

"Batman: The Animated Series" Night of the Ninja (TV Episode 1992) - IMDb[/QUOTE]

 

[terry78]

So yet someone else had to quit social media due to intolerant fanboys.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Cavill is not polish.

#NotmyWitcher