New G.I. Joe Details

[Kokoryu1]

Actually, it is very, very, hard. First off, let's point out the obvious; the comic had hundreds of issues, spanning years to develop and fully flesh out great, complex subplots and histories for each of the major players. The movie, on the other hand, has between 90 to 180 minutes (though I'm betting it won't go much beyond 2 hours) to tell its story from start to finish, covering the central plot, introduce the major characters and all subplots. Then, there's the part where what works in comics doesn't necessarily translate well into other mediums, making it unwise to give a direct translation, especially given the different eras between the original and the adaptation where social norms and politics have changed.

That's very poor logic. Using that philosophy, things would never improve. Take for example, our internet connection. If we didn't try fixing things that weren't broken, we'd all still be using dial-up. Come to think about it, we wouldn't even have internet since we'd still be swinging from tree to tree, picking berries to eat. Considering monkeys haven't become extinct, it's clear that our pre-hominid ancestors' lifestyle clearly wasn't 'broken' and thus they shouldn't have 'fixed' it by evolving.

Interesting point.

1. As far as evolution, that's a natural process. As humans we have little say over whether we grow a third eye for night vision or if we men lose our nipples for lack of use or necessity. We do have reign over our creative process. If we drew an ipod on the Mona Lisa, is that desecration or modernization?. If I rewrote the bible and Moses was emailed the ten commandments from a blogger called the Burning Bush is that sacrilage or artistic license? If Citizen Kane were remade and Rosebud was now a pimped out Coupe de Ville, is that vision or being comtemporary? And please don't try do disavow my examples here. After all you did try to extrude a wanton disregard for change and deevolution from my "If it ain't broke" comment.

2. Terrorism is even MORE relevant today than it was in 1982 when G.I.Joe The Real American Hero line was first introduced. So yes of course times have changed. Until April, 18. 1983, when it really struck home, terrorism was something we saw on tv happening elsewhere. It barley touched the majority of us at home.

3. Maybe you misunderstood what I said. Would it have been too difficult to have Larry Hama script a condensed and sensible version of the comics without writing a story that included every single plot involved in the comics to be made into a screen play? Why not use the first few issues as a basis for the first movie and other stories arcs for subsequent film? As the paying public aren't you worth a little effort by the studios?

4. I never expected a complete and utter translation of the comics. No one does. With budgetary constraints and other variables constantly present that would be impractical. However, successful examples of translations do exist as well as failed attempts. Batman Begins was an excellent Comic translation. Almost dead on. Almost. Some of his back story was edited, Yes. But not so much that you barely recognized the finished product. Fantastic four is a bad example because they mangled the story line too much and involved too much camp. The Crow was and is, in my opinion, the best comic book / movie translation ever because they kept to the core of what drove Erick Draven. Punisher was a horrid translation because they altered his story far too much, read Punisher # 1 and his limited MAXX series and you'll understand actually why he became the Punisher. Transformers was a bad translation in general because of poor story. Had they kept more of the original Tf comic in a better story it would have been. Iron man ,from what info I've been privy to, is going to be an excellent translation because the story is updated for modern times but doesn't dissolve Tony's character with a non sense history that the comic reading populace doesn't recognize (I won't comment on Spiderman and Daredevil because I know so little about them as Batman, Iron Man and Punisher were and still are my favorite comics aside from G.I. Joe). Starship Troopers is my final shining example of too much change. Robert Heinlen would be disgusted if he had seen that trash. Where were the powered suits of armor that were so integral to the story? Why were Key members of the story changed? So much was missing from that farce that to call it Starship troopers is an insult to the Heinlen name. Read the book then watch the movie and you'll see exactly what I mean. So could they have done a decent translation? Most assuredly. This rubbish they're pushing off is completely run of the mill and so diluted that you could literally replace any of the characters rename it and the general public would be none the wiser.

5. Change is fine if only to contemporize a property but a complete altering of it to fit someones "Vision" is unnecessary and will alienate the fanbase. And that is why this endeavor will ultimately fail and may well doom the franchise in doing so.

If you need a hammer and are given a rock, do you accept it? They can both drive a nail but it's not what you expected and you know that inherently the original is better suited for the task at hand. Accept no substitutes.

 

[mr. peasant]

1. As far as evolution, that's a natural process. As humans we have little say over whether we grow a third eye for night vision or if we men lose our nipples for lack of use or necessity. We do have reign over our creative process. If we drew an ipod on the Mona Lisa, is that desecration or modernization?. If I rewrote the bible and Moses was emailed the ten commandments from a blogger called the Burning Bush is that sacrilage or artistic license? If Citizen Kane were remade and Rosebud was now a pimped out Coupe de Ville, is that vision or being comtemporary? And please don't try do disavow my examples here. After all you did try to extrude a wanton disregard for change and deevolution from my "If it ain't broke" comment.

To put it simply, not all changes are good just as how not all 'unnecessary' changes are bad. Deciding which ones are and aren't is a subjective matter which differs from individual to individual.

2. Terrorism is even MORE relevant today than it was in 1982 when G.I.Joe The Real American Hero line was first introduced. So yes of course times have changed. Until April, 18. 1983, when it really struck home, terrorism was something we saw on tv happening elsewhere. It barley touched the majority of us at home.

No one is saying it isn't (hence why the villains are still a terrorist-like group). However, the producers seemed to be reasoning that making realistic terrorists akin to how Cobra was depicted in the comics is a little 'too real' in that they fear it might cause some discomfort for viewers given the great relevance terrorism has in today's society.

3. Maybe you misunderstood what I said. Would it have been too difficult to have Larry Hama script a condensed and sensible version of the comics without writing a story that included every single plot involved in the comics to be made into a screen play? Why not use the first few issues as a basis for the first movie and other stories arcs for subsequent film? As the paying public aren't you worth a little effort by the studios?

Well, the first few issues were pretty boring character-wise, as they were largely flat and/or unexplained. I agree, they could have done something close to such (though not Hama since as far as I'm aware of, he's not in the WGA). However, they opted not to, which is not to say it's wrong/bad by default. Even the changes aren't so 'unforgivable' to me concept-wise. It boils down to its execution.

It's funny you mentioned Batman Begins as being a good example of a comic translation. I found it greatly altered the character. For instance, Batman is now a 'ninja' (in a matter of speaking), participated in serious criminal activity (which he wouldn't comic-wise, if not directly needed as part of his vigilantism) and was trained by the League of Assassins/Shadows. Even so, I will admit the character was fairly accurate behavior-wise once pass the 'origins' phase. That said, the only changes we've had in G.I. Joe not derived from comic source material are actually a few characters' origins as well. Finally, it's worth pointing out movies that severely deviated from the source material can be good as well. A shining example of such was the original Blade movie as well its sequel (not the third one).

If you need a hammer and are given a rock, do you accept it? They can both drive a nail but it's not what you expected and you know that inherently the original is better suited for the task at hand. Accept no substitutes.

The thing is, until we actually see the finished product, we don't know whether what we received is indeed a rock or a nail gun.

 

[Kokoryu1]

QUOTE: To put it simply, not all changes are good just as how not all 'unnecessary' changes are bad. Deciding which ones are and aren't is a subjective matter which differs from individual to individual. QUOTE.

Considering the post I've read here concerning the changes it appears the majority of folks are unhappy and have decided the changes are remarkably unnecessary. But to conciliate your view I propose a vote.
To anyone reading this post. Please consider what you know of this movie in comparison to what you know of G.I. Joe canon and vote Yay, Nay, or Wait and see, concerning the changes.


QUOTE:No one is saying it isn't (hence why the villains are still a terrorist-like group). However, the producers seemed to be reasoning that making realistic terrorists akin to how Cobra was depicted in the comics is a little 'too real' in that they fear it might cause some discomfort for viewers given the great relevance terrorism has in today's society.QUOTE.

Are you implying that a large body of megalomaniacal individuals who wear blue uniforms embazoned with a Snakes head caricature and following the orders of a silver masked and leather clad hierarchy could be considered a realistic portrayal of a terrorist organization? I think the good people of Ireland and the Middle East would disagree.


QUOTE:Well, the first few issues were pretty boring character-wise, as they were largely flat and/or unexplained. I agree, they could have done something close to such (though not Hama since as far as I'm aware of, he's not in the WGA). However, they opted not to, which is not to say it's wrong/bad by default. Even the changes aren't so 'unforgivable' to me concept-wise. It boils down to its execution.QUOTE.

Boring? " Deciding which ones are and aren't is a subjective matter that differs from individual to individual ". Sound familiar?. Before you gripe and say I'm using your words out of context let me say I agree with you on this as nearly EVERYTHING is subjective. But don't attempt to stifle ones' right to chose. Boring you say? There are more a than fair amount of comic book collectors who actively seek out the first "boring" issues of this iconic property. It would have been trivial matter for Hama to join the WGA. Having Hama write the story could've been done before hand. Joining the WGA would simply have been a formality. And by no means am I saying that change is wrong by default, but change for no reason is just plain stupid. And seeing such severe alterations gives me, as well as others, little hope for it successful execution.


QUOTE:It's funny you mentioned Batman Begins as being a good example of a comic translation. I found it greatly altered the character. For instance, Batman is now a 'ninja' (in a matter of speaking), participated in serious criminal activity (which he wouldn't comic-wise, if not directly needed as part of his vigilantism) and was trained by the League of Assassins/Shadows. Even so, I will admit the character was fairly accurate behavior-wise once pass the 'origins' phase. That said, the only changes we've had in G.I. Joe not derived from comic source material are actually a few characters' origins as well. Finally, it's worth pointing out movies that severely deviated from the source material can be good as well. A shining example of such was the original Blade movie as well its sequel (not the third one).QUOTE

Batman began his physical and mental conditioning when he was 11.
Began intense physical training and weight lifting at age 12.
Trained in the US for various martial arts for 3 years.
Became 2st and 3nd degree black belt in Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido by the time he was 17.
At 18 left US to further study martial arts under specialized masters.
Other skills: savate, kungfu, blind fighting
With few exceptions, the non-metahuman known as the Batman is a superbly trained and highly experienced fighting machine. Mastering the world's most lethal martial arts disciplines, he is considered to be the best martial artist in the world.

So it would seem the ninja aspect is plausible. And while his history was altered somewhat, the basis behind his unwavering need for justice still lies with the death of his parents. His core character wasn't changed. In the G.I Joe movie, histories are completely disregarded.

*Baroness hates Snake Eyes because she believed he had killed her brother in Viet Nam. This made her angry and eventually what drove her to become a terrorist.
*Cobra Commander was a used car salesman & small businessman who also wanted Snake Eyes dead because CC's big brother Dan, who was shafted by the "system" and turned to drinking, died in a head on collision along with Snake Eyes family while drunk driving. CC blamed the only survivng member of the family for it, Snake eyes.
*Destro's history is pretty much straight on.
* Snake Eyes was a soldier who served in nam with Stalker and Storm Shadow. The day he returned home his family including his twin sister Theresa were all killed in car crash on their way to pick him up from the airport. Angry he traveled the country being a vigilante with some dude who turned out to be a pre-Cobra Cobra Commander. One night they brokeinto the house of the judge who had driven CC's brother to drink. He told Snake eyes tokill him and whn Snke refused CC shot hteman himself and left Snake there. SE wound up with the only family he had, Storm Shadows Arashikage clan.

I won't go into too much detail but the others' backgrounds are just as varied. This seems like a very involved and deep story line which had a profound effect on who the characters are. No I don't expect a verbatim adaptation, but would a reasonable facsimile be too much? In the end the story on screen isn't from the source material. Blade was a character with whom the public at large knew little to nothing of. And it was a decent translation. Some continuity issues but still decent.

QUOTE:The thing is, until we actually see the finished product, we don't know whether what we received is indeed a rock or a nail gun.

QUOTE.

Do you need to hear the fire alarm before you put out the fire in front of you?
This script is "crooked tracks", and no train runs right on crooked tracks.


Like I said, Accept no substitutes.

 

[mr. peasant]

Okay, reagarding my comment on the first few issues being 'boring', it's a personal opinion. As for the people trying hard to collect those very first few issues you speak of, many of them are collectors and aren't into it for the stories but as investments. I doubt many of them would be reading original prints of them.

The main switch in Baroness' story (as far as the details we know) is that instead of Snake Eyes, her anger is aimed at Duke (her fiance?) after the apparent death of her brother. Hence, the triggering event is by and large unchanged but merely who her anger is directed at.

As for Blade, there was a huge change; namely the introduction of Whistler. Whistler's addition changed Blade's entire character dynamics as it provided him a mentor figure where previously there was none. What was more, his personality was changed from a talkative boast to a more stoic and quiet individual.

Finally, the comment regarding the public knowing 'little to nothing' about Blade can be extended to G.I. Joe (to an extent). While most are familiar with the title, lots don't know the specifics beyond superficial stuff such as 'Cobra Commander is the main villain' and maybe the 'Snake Eyes - Storm Shadow conflict'. Rather, the majority of the lay public are most familiar with the Sunbow cartoons, which did little to establish most of the 'canon' you are referring to, which isn't even accurate as far as 'original canon' goes regarding G.I. Joe. In fact, the whole RAH concept was a reboot.

 

[Blade X]

My quick thoughts.

1. I have no problem with the Accelerator Suits because (a) this is similar to the Sigma suits used in Sigma 6 (b) the real life military is actually working on similar suits and (c) the G.I. JOE team is supposed to be a special high tech special unit of the military who's tech is always far more advanced then the normal/standard military tech.

2. I have no problem with either the nano bombs or the Neo Vipers.

3. The only character who should have invisibility armor/tech is Zartan. So I am NOT happy about Scarlet having invisibility armor.

4. I have no problem with Ripcord having the hots for Scarlet as long as they DO NOT end up dating/falling in love. Scarlet and Snake Eyes should fall in love/be together.

5. Duke and Baroness SHOULD NOT be in love or have had a past relationship.

6. I have no problem with Cobra Commander mind controlling the other Cobra agents AS LONG AS those agents joined him initially of their OWN FREE WILLS and he is only mind controlling them in order to guarantee that they stay loyal to him. The only member of Cobra who SHOULD BE mind controlled in order to make him join Cobra is Storm Shadow.

 

[gkokujin]

Nanobomb = Nude Bomb + Maxwell Smart.


Dear God this just keeps getting worse and worse everytime I read stuff.

why do I sense that Marlon will be probably the best thing in this movie, next to the confrontation between snake eyes and Stormshadow?

 

[cosmicherosa]

And you know there will be some garbage scene wear a female Joe will be come mind-controlled, and a male Joe will have to plead with her and yell "You are a JOE!!!! I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". It will be similar to the mind control scene from the Naked Gun, with (Insert COBRA villian name) falling from a tower, and a Hiss tank squishing them.....and Ripcord going "DDDDDDDDDDDDDAMN! That s*** is Wack!"

 

[thegameq]

Ugh! why does everyone try to turn these things into rocket science?

It's fantasy, plain and simple! If they can make a Spider-man, Iron Man, etc. movie they can make a GI Joe movie closer to the source material. The key is fantasy!

This is really getting old fast!--Then they try to spin the old "general audience" excuse for the terrible cliched changes. General audiences love fantasy films just as much as we do (and they show it with their wallets), so that excuse gets lamer every time I hear it.

You see it happening to so many fantasy properties you have to wonder what is the point of acquiring the license to such fantastic fantasy driven properties if studios are to afraid to take creative risks with them.

Is it really so hard to take a more creative approach to these films?

 

[gkokujin]

the lack of american flags on their costumes GREATLY disturbs me

 

[Heretic]

Ugh! why does everyone try to turn these things into rocket science?

It's fantasy, plain and simple! If they can make a Spider-man, Iron Man, etc. movie they can make a GI Joe movie closer to the source material. The key is fantasy!

This is really getting old fast!--Then they try to spin the old "general audience" excuse for the terrible cliched changes. General audiences love fantasy films just as much as we do (and they show it with their wallets), so that excuse gets lamer every time I hear it.

You see it happening to so many fantasy properties you have to wonder what is the point of acquiring the license to such fantastic fantasy driven properties if studios are to afraid to take creative risks with them.

Is it really so hard to take a more creative approach to these films?

Actually, GI Joe doesnt really call for much fantasy, and they went ahead an added it anyway. Theres nothing difficult about "terrorist group tries to take over the world/topple US government and a group of soldiers are chosen to fight them". You dont need mind control or invisibility suits to tell that story.

 

[CorpusBlack]

I've officially stopped caring about this movie.

 

[Raiden]

Actually, GI Joe doesnt really call for much fantasy, and they went ahead an added it anyway. Theres nothing difficult about "terrorist group tries to take over the world/topple US government and a group of soldiers are chosen to fight them". You dont need mind control or invisibility suits to tell that story.

Yeah, I don't want mind control in this movie. That's a bunch of BS.

 

[mr. peasant]

Actually, GI Joe doesnt really call for much fantasy, and they went ahead an added it anyway. Theres nothing difficult about "terrorist group tries to take over the world/topple US government and a group of soldiers are chosen to fight them". You dont need mind control or invisibility suits to tell that story.

But G.I. Joe is heavily steeped in sci fi. Take a look at the MASS device, the Weather Dominator and the other Maguffin devices employed. Most, if not all aren't possible with today's technology much less with what they had back then. Hence, this makes G.I. Joe fall within a 'soft' science fiction. Most of the technology being used in the movie is actually being seriously researched at this point in time.

 

[Hotwire]

But G.I. Joe is heavily steeped in sci fi. Take a look at the MASS device, the Weather Dominator and the other Maguffin devices employed. Most, if not all aren't possible with today's technology much less with what they had back then. Hence, this makes G.I. Joe fall within a 'soft' science fiction. Most of the technology being used in the movie is actually being seriously researched at this point in time.

You can add the Corba-La to that list as well. Especially when you concider characters like Nemesis Enforcer & Golobulus. Not to mention Zartan's abilities and the fact that they all shot at each other with lasers!!

Almost forgot these guys.

 

[Heretic]

Okay, let me speak for 90% of GI Joe fandom here...

Cobra-La doesnt count. It was a mistake that should be wiped off the face of the canon. In fact, I dont recall them being featured in the comic, which is the most canonical part. The cartoons "dont count" or as I like to say "didnt really happen".

...end of me speaking for everyone...

There were some aspects that were kind of sci fi...Flash being the laser tropper comes to mind, as foes B.A.T.S. Personally, I think the more sci fi the toys got, the more it weakened the prosuct. Eco-Warriors? I dont even like that Zartan can change colors.

Not that I'm the be all and end all of Joe fans...I just always preferred the bullets being shot in teh comic over the lasers being fired into the air of the cartoon.

 

[Hotwire]

Okay, let me speak for 90% of GI Joe fandom here...

Cobra-La doesnt count. It was a mistake that should be wiped off the face of the canon. In fact, I dont recall them being featured in the comic, which is the most canonical part. The cartoons "dont count" or as I like to say "didnt really happen".

...end of me speaking for everyone...

There were some aspects that were kind of sci fi...Flash being the laser tropper comes to mind, as foes B.A.T.S. Personally, I think the more sci fi the toys got, the more it weakened the prosuct. Eco-Warriors? I dont even like that Zartan can change colors.

Not that I'm the be all and end all of Joe fans...I just always preferred the bullets being shot in teh comic over the lasers being fired into the air of the cartoon.

So only the comics count? Get real. The cartoon was a huge part of it, especially for me. and I would imagine many of the other people here were huge fans of the cartoon.

 

[Heretic]

Thats great that you liked the cartoon...but seeing as to how it flat out contradicted the comic in many ways and made very little sense at times (Snowjob, Recondo and Deep Six going on a desert mission without a change of outfits with Dusty nowhere to be found...actually that never happened but stuff like it did.)

You can like the cartoon all day, but it "doesnt count" any more than the X-Men cartoon counts as official X-Men lore.

 

[Hotwire]

Thats great that you liked the cartoon...but seeing as to how it flat out contradicted the comic in many ways and made very little sense at times (Snowjob, Recondo and Deep Six going on a desert mission without a change of outfits with Dusty nowhere to be found...actually that never happened but stuff like it did.)

You can like the cartoon all day, but it "doesnt count" any more than the X-Men cartoon counts as official X-Men lore.

I'd have to say your example is a bit off. There are far more people who's only real exposure to G.I. Joe was the cartoon than X-Men. But keep in mind, both were created to market the toys. G.I. Joe started out as a toy line, and it has always been about the toys. But to say, the cartoon doesn't count, in this case, would be like saying that the Thundercats and He-Man cartoons don't count.

 

[mr. peasant]

You can like the cartoon all day, but it "doesnt count" any more than the X-Men cartoon counts as official X-Men lore.

There is a reason why X-Men's comic's canon always trumps its cartoon counterparts; namely that its original source material were those very comics while the cartoon is an adaptation of it. On the other hand, G.I. Joe's original source material are action figures. Both, the comic and cartoons were released around the same time and based on/adapted from those action figures.

 

[Hotwire]

There is a reason why X-Men's comic's canon always trumps its cartoon counterparts; namely that its original source material were those very comics while the cartoon is an adaptation of it. On the other hand, G.I. Joe's original source material are action figures. Both, the comic and cartoons were released around the same time and based on/adapted from those action figures.

Bingo.

 

[Heretic]

Youre still wrong.

The initial Gi Joe comic run debuted before the cartoon and lasted 155 iddues, not counting annuals and spin-offs, which is more "episodes" over way more years than the cartoon lasted. This does not include the Sigma Six stuff nor the Dark Horse or current comics.

Also, the file cards would certainly be the true mythology and the original source, and Larry Hama wrote the cards...and the comics...but not the cartoons.

So, call me crazy, but Im siding with larry hama as the official writer of the Joe mythology. Of course, if you go with the cartoon, Snake-Eyes is a bit player who is much of a fighter, Scarlet is in love with Duke, and Shipwreck and Bazooka are two of the most important members of the team.

 

[Hotwire]

Youre still wrong.

The initial Gi Joe comic run debuted before the cartoon and lasted 155 iddues, not counting annuals and spin-offs, which is more "episodes" over way more years than the cartoon lasted. This does not include the Sigma Six stuff nor the Dark Horse or current comics.

Also, the file cards would certainly be the true mythology and the original source, and Larry Hama wrote the cards...and the comics...but not the cartoons.

So, call me crazy, but Im siding with larry hama as the official writer of the Joe mythology. Of course, if you go with the cartoon, Snake-Eyes is a bit player who is much of a fighter, Scarlet is in love with Duke, and Shipwreck and Bazooka are two of the most important members of the team.

Well then, be sure to thank the comics for the costumes being worn in the movie.

 

[Heretic]

Really? Because I dont recall seeing those costumes in the Real American Hero run of the comic...Ive seen a lot about this movie that will suck...and none of it stems from the comics.

 

[Hotwire]

Really? Because I dont recall seeing those costumes in the Real American Hero run of the comic...Ive seen a lot about this movie that will suck...and none of it stems from the comics.

http://joereloaded.com/home.htm
Click "Test Shots" and you will see what I'm talking about. The whole Joe:Reloaded/Cobra:Reborn series is where the Storm Shadow design came from, where Snake-Eyes got his baggy pants, and why Scarlet isn't wearing tights. And it's a comic, so it counts.

 

[mr. peasant]

Youre still wrong.

The initial Gi Joe comic run debuted before the cartoon and lasted 155 iddues, not counting annuals and spin-offs, which is more "episodes" over way more years than the cartoon lasted. This does not include the Sigma Six stuff nor the Dark Horse or current comics.

Also, the file cards would certainly be the true mythology and the original source, and Larry Hama wrote the cards...and the comics...but not the cartoons.

So, call me crazy, but Im siding with larry hama as the official writer of the Joe mythology. Of course, if you go with the cartoon, Snake-Eyes is a bit player who is much of a fighter, Scarlet is in love with Duke, and Shipwreck and Bazooka are two of the most important members of the team.

Speaking about the comics, it's a known fact that comic mythos do periodically reboot, which isn't necessarily a bad thing by default. A shining example of rebooting things right is Superman's archnemesis Lex Luthor. If you were a stickler to the original, Lex Luthor would be a red-haired mad scientist as opposed to the far more popular and preferred bald billionaire that he is now.

Also to note, the G.I. Joe comic of Hama's creation wasn't originally intended to be G.I. Joe but was a proposed comic series depicting a commando unit led by Fury's son against HYDRA. It was only when his proposal was axed that Hama inserted his idea into the G.I. Joe comic. If you stick to original/non-altered material as stated in his file card, Snake Eyes would neither be a ninja nor hold any particular excellence in martial arts (at least not the way he does in the comics) let alone have a connection with Storm Shadow.