New Joe Fridays

[Sebastos]

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays14.html

He announces the artist for Thor, new projects, what's up in Civil War and some preview pages for upcoming books.

 

[Red]

NRAMA: We spoke with Tom [Brevoort] and Mark [Millar] about this earlier, but with the Pro-Registration side as it’s shown, can you honestly say they're still being shown in an even-handed manner? After all, Cap may have thrown the first punch, but Tony's side killed someone, is cloning an army, and sticking things in Clor's ear (that's what we call cloned Thor around here)…

That said - can you see the point of view of fans who say that you're only presenting Cap in a sympathetic light?

JQ: We are only on issue #4; can we just let the story play itself out? That said, I don't know if you can convince someone about one thing or another once they have their hearts set on something. I personally believe that many people were inclined to root for
Cap at the very onset as he is clearly the underdog and fighting against the big machine that is Tony, his troops and the government. Like so many things in life that affect people at their most base emotional levels, it would take a pretty harsh action to have them change their minds otherwise. But, with that in mind, do you think for a second that we didn't know where people were going to be instantly leaning? Even before the first page of Civil War was read, we were 100% sure of who fandom was going to be rooting for, but that's pretty true of any story. What's key here is that that is how great writers construct their stories and they use those tools and manipulation of a reader's emotions in order to keep them guessing and surprised with how things turn out. Sometimes the butler has done it, sometimes not.

...
So whats the point of heroes fighting heroes and fans having to pick a side to support if they basicly paint Cap and friends as the good guys.

 

[Harlekin]

Marvels 2 is looking damn good.

 

[Sebastos]

Who knows, but i for one am on the Anti-Reg. For some reason i was looking forward to Civil War, but after #4 i really can't stand where it's going.

 

[Sebastos]

Marvels 2 is looking damn good.

Yep, and it has a page of Iron Fist! I'm definetly picking it up.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Marvels 2, that should be sweet. I remember them mentioning this a while ago, but it's good to see an update on it. That preview page was awesome.

 

[Darthphere]

I can feel my blood pressure rise everytime I read a Joe Friday after an issue of Civil War.

 

[Tropico]

I feel my ulcer flaring. And I don't even have one!!!

 

[Kitsune]

Basically I support the ideas behind the registration, but the way the implimentation has been poorly done. I kinda feel like the writers are projecting their disagreements with the current President onto the Proregistration side.
It would be nice if that side was something more than a strawman.

 

[gildea]

Basically I support the ideas behind the registration, but the way the implimentation has been poorly done.

I agree.

The problem as I see is irl the concept of anti-registered heroes has no leg to stand on whatsoever, but in the marvel universe its an accepted convention and you can't present too strong a case for registration without attacking the genre.

 

[Marcdachamp]

Hmmmm. So the new Thunderbolts roster is sticking around Post-CW. Interesting. If the creative team is strong, I might pick it up, although I'm really gonna have to streamline my books.

 

[Dread]

Basically I support the ideas behind the registration, but the way the implimentation has been poorly done. I kinda feel like the writers are projecting their disagreements with the current President onto the Proregistration side.
It would be nice if that side was something more than a strawman.

Total agreement. Had the Pro-SHRA side been presented as more reasonable, compassionate, and still "herioc" (like in, say, MS. MARVEL), then the story would be much more interesting. Instead Millar & Co. have chosen the easy way out by making characters who oppose their POV to be nasty, sadistical, uncompassionate and sometimes irrational or insensitive. This is hardly something new; how many times have you seen, say, writers make anti-bigotry allegories by making all bigots evil, irrational, sadistical brutes? The problem is that their arguements would fall apart if one ever met a bigot who was rational, not evil, and not a sadist. And that doesn't help anyone.

The problem as I see is irl the concept of anti-registered heroes has no leg to stand on whatsoever, but in the marvel universe its an accepted convention and you can't present too strong a case for registration without attacking the genre.

Also in total agreement. This story is a bit of a double edged sword.

What most annoyed me about this JOE FRIDAY's and the interview a few days before with Millar & Bevroot is that they seem to completely seem out of touch with fandom if they believe that the pro-SHRA can look in any way sympathetic after CW #4. Mr. Fantastic, normally a compassionate man, barely flinched at Goliath's death aside for the fact that it proved he "needed to carry the one" or something with programming Nuclear Thor, and not getting his wife pissed. Heck, he'd never even visittted Johnny during his coma. And as for siccing a cadre of ruthless hitmen and mercs at the anti-SHRA....you can't root for that. That's no different than Egghead or Red Skull or Dr. Octopus or old school Zemo assembling some villian team for whatever purpose. The Brotherhood of Mutants usually had a fair point like Magneto, but we never were supposed to root for them. Millar is writing a lot of characters at their worst, which I am beginning to see that is what he is good for. By that I mean is, if you need a story where two old friends suddenly disagree and come to blows, he's your man to make it as nasty, vile and bitter as humanly possible (and to pace the action well). Their justification is, "politics is polarizing the country now", and that's true. But they also miss the fact that the media actually has a big hand in causing and maintaining that, which includes, yes, comic books (no, I am not removing blame from the President or partisan politicians on both sides of the spectrum. But to deny that the media, as a whole from radio, TV, movies, etc., doesn't play a large role in keeping the political polarizing of the public going is naive). Millar also is someone who is almost incapable of removing his political views from drowning a work, as ULTIMATES 2 shows.

Besides, the "Dirty Dozen" as they call them aren't like some of the Thunderbolts who were merely henchmen or robbers. These are hitmen and KILLERS here. They're inevitably going to go off the deep end and not be controlled. Plus, you have the psychological factor. Can you really trust a side that is so desperate that they basically have Bullseye, Venom, and Lady Deathstrike do their dirtywork? That's pretty much like having Freedom Force (made of mostly criminals) go to Iraq, conviently, during the first Gulf War under Bush Sr. Yes, I have a long memory. My point is that after CW #4, it is now almost impossible to root for the pro-SHRA side (or at least their founders) unless you're the sort of guy who likes villians (and you know who you are). They're acting little different than Magneto or "villians with a fair point but ruthless tactics" sort of beings. The fact that some of these characters used to be compassionate or friendly with their enemies just adds to it.

How, exactly, do Iron Man and Reed get to look good in CW #5 or whatever, Bevroot, Joe Q, and Millar? Is Cap going to eat a baby, raw? Is Bullseye about to take a bullet for the President from the Punisher? And if so, then the effect would be that NO ONE is really "good", and they're all *****ebags. But that's also a moral that Millar's not afraid of showing, hence his ULTIMATES work where everyone is a flawed arrogant jackass in one way or the other. His point is that in real life, "heroes" aren't as pure as we think and they all have dark sides, but the effect is that we are then stuck reading about main characters who we'd hate to meet in real life. And that gets draining.

Still, at least the action of CW is nice. And you're not waiting aimlessly for each issue to go soemwhere like HOM. And the B and C listers that live have a good shot at stardom again, like Iron Fist, the remaining New Warriors, etc. It's just the A-listers that are being butchered, either in the flesh or in character.

 

[deemar325]

Dread your to damn smart.

 

[Sebastos]

I tend to agree.

 

[KingOfDreams]

I really like that pic of Cap. Captain America = Badass.

 

[deemar325]

Cap has become the best character at Marvel to me overall.

 

[Dread]

Dread your to damn smart.

Thanks. And I saw in another topic you were one of the guys who predicted which hero bit it in CW #4. Pretty good.

And I'll admit that while IRON MAN's title is now selling about the same as it was 5 years ago, thereby making some of the past few relaunches useless, Cap has seen an upswing since 2001 in terms of sales and character.

You could, however, also argue that he is in the very least stubborn in CW, and he could have played his hand with more finesse than he has. Some people (especially in the "has Cap lost moral ground" topic) claim that. But the truth of the matter is these kinds of stories almost make everyone look bad in the end, and Millar excells at that. You don't pick him when you want an allegory about some noble friends 'til the end fighting a dragon together. You pick him when those friends infight to the bitter end. Considering that, it's amazing his ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR was as good as it was, hence why it's still his most underrated work to me.

But, whichever side Cap picks was easily going to be the side that most fans would cling to, and nothing, NOTHING that Stark & Co. have done has changed that. In fact, they'd added cons to their side almost every issue. It was Stark who hired Titanuim Man to attack Washington back during PRELUDE, which could have influenced some of the politico's before CIVIL WAR. He's been willing to sell out his fellow New Avengers (like Jessica Drew) if they don't tow the line, and he even spies on his lapdog Parker. Now we learn he's been seemingly collecting DNA on his Avenger allies for ages, hence cloning Thor. This is the level of "omnipotent prep-time paranoia" that JLA stories use for Batman...when they're trying to make a point of Batman being very close to becoming like those he fights (see TOWER OF BABEL, which may look like a Christmas party by the time CW is said and done). And now not only is he deputizing the other Thunderbolts (including, oh, Baron Zemo and quite a few who only play hero for the thrill, like Joystick), but now he's assembling a squad of out-and-out killers for hire for another gig. Bullseye, Taskmaster, Lady Deathstrike, they've done hitman works before. As for Venom & Jester, they're just psycho killers anyway. And of course Norman Osborn is waiting in the wings (see CW FILES). We know they'll be out of control, or something will happen, and even not, imagine if you saw a SWAT team led by a leashed Jeffery Dahmer. Would that instill in you to follow the law?

I mean, you could argue, "Cap is pushing younger heroes onto his side", but so is the SHRA with Arana. You could argue, "Stark was there to talk in CW #3", but c'mon, if Cap'd let him have 30 minutes to talk and then said, "Look, Stark, I've heard all your points but I just can't agree to this", you think Stark, his team of heroes, and the SHIELD "cape-killers" would have allowed them to leave? No, they were going to fight if they didn't get their way, and I don't see how Cap's "suckerpunch" manuver to ignite the fight didn't simply start a brawl that had become inevitable. So, really, if not even the EIC of Marvel has a clear idea of what fandom thinks, either he's intentionally steering or he's out of touch. And intentional steering will be fine so long as the payoff is worth it. I just get a feeling that with all the insistance on changing things by the sword of destruction, a LOT of characters won't be the same.

 

[KingOfDreams]

Bullseye, Taskmaster, Lady Deathstrike, they've done hitman works before. As for Venom & Jester, they're just psycho killers anyway. And of course Norman Osborn is waiting in the wings (see CW FILES). We know they'll be out of control, or something will happen, and even not, imagine if you saw a SWAT team led by a leashed Jeffery Dahmer. Would that instill in you to follow the law?

Good point. And I haven't been reading Civil War but Spider-Man is still on the Pro-Registration side am I right? Having Venom and potentially Norman Osborn working for the same side he is on would have to make him think twice about his decisions.

 

[Dread]

Good point. And I haven't been reading Civil War but Spider-Man is still on the Pro-Registration side am I right? Having Venom and potentially Norman Osborn working for the same side he is on would have to make him think twice about his decisions.

Spider-Man, as of CW #4 is still on the pro-SHRA side taking orders from his master, Iron Man. But he also may not know that some of his bitter enemies are now "deputies".

 

[KingOfDreams]

Total agreement. Had the Pro-SHRA side been presented as more reasonable, compassionate, and still "herioc" (like in, say, MS. MARVEL), then the story would be much more interesting. Instead Millar & Co. have chosen the easy way out by making characters who oppose their POV to be nasty, sadistical, uncompassionate and sometimes irrational or insensitive. This is hardly something new; how many times have you seen, say, writers make anti-bigotry allegories by making all bigots evil, irrational, sadistical brutes? The problem is that their arguements would fall apart if one ever met a bigot who was rational, not evil, and not a sadist. And that doesn't help anyone.

Personally, as I see it, bigotry is not rational or logical or anything like that by definition. It doesn't have to be sadistic but I do find it evil. I can also see why people would support the registration but I also see the fascist leanings it could take. I'm not opposed to writers showing the positives of each side of a conflict but ultimately one side has to be made the bad guy in superhero comics I believe. But that being said, I wouldn't be opposed to the depiction of the concept of civil war itself being the bad guy. That could be happening to a certain extent, I wouldn't know. Like I've said I'm not reading it.

 

[deemar325]

Thanks. And I saw in another topic you were one of the guys who predicted which hero bit it in CW #4. Pretty good.

And I'll admit that while IRON MAN's title is now selling about the same as it was 5 years ago, thereby making some of the past few relaunches useless, Cap has seen an upswing since 2001 in terms of sales and character.

Well Ironman hasn't found that creative team with that right 'Magic' to get him in the place he needs to be. It seems all the major Avengers with solo titles are in a good place and have been gaining steam Hulk,Cap,Thor,She-Hulk,even BlackPanther all but Ironman.

What is it that's not clicking with Ironman?


You could, however, also argue that he is in the very least stubborn in CW, and he could have played his hand with more finesse than he has. Some people (especially in the "has Cap lost moral ground" topic) claim that. But the truth of the matter is these kinds of stories almost make everyone look bad in the end, and Millar excells at that. You don't pick him when you want an allegory about some noble friends 'til the end fighting a dragon together. You pick him when those friends infight to the bitter end. Considering that, it's amazing his ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR was as good as it was, hence why it's still his most underrated work to me.

Millar I think truly loves superheroes, I get the sense that he's trying to push the stories away from the predictable. To the point where supervillians actually win. I think he's for all his faults wants to save superhero comics.

But, whichever side Cap picks was easily going to be the side that most fans would cling to, and nothing, NOTHING that Stark & Co. have done has changed that. In fact, they'd added cons to their side almost every issue. It was Stark who hired Titanuim Man to attack Washington back during PRELUDE, which could have influenced some of the politico's before CIVIL WAR. He's been willing to sell out his fellow New Avengers (like Jessica Drew) if they don't tow the line, and he even spies on his lapdog Parker. Now we learn he's been seemingly collecting DNA on his Avenger allies for ages, hence cloning Thor. This is the level of "omnipotent prep-time paranoia" that JLA stories use for Batman...when they're trying to make a point of Batman being very close to becoming like those he fights (see TOWER OF BABEL, which may look like a Christmas party by the time CW is said and done). And now not only is he deputizing the other Thunderbolts (including, oh, Baron Zemo and quite a few who only play hero for the thrill, like Joystick), but now he's assembling a squad of out-and-out killers for hire for another gig. Bullseye, Taskmaster, Lady Deathstrike, they've done hitman works before. As for Venom & Jester, they're just psycho killers anyway. And of course Norman Osborn is waiting in the wings (see CW FILES). We know they'll be out of control, or something will happen, and even not, imagine if you saw a SWAT team led by a leashed Jeffery Dahmer. Would that instill in you to follow the law?

Solid points all around. Tony is basically the new Jerk-Batman.

I mean, you could argue, "Cap is pushing younger heroes onto his side", but so is the SHRA with Arana. You could argue, "Stark was there to talk in CW #3", but c'mon, if Cap'd let him have 30 minutes to talk and then said, "Look, Stark, I've heard all your points but I just can't agree to this", you think Stark, his team of heroes, and the SHIELD "cape-killers" would have allowed them to leave? No, they were going to fight if they didn't get their way, and I don't see how Cap's "suckerpunch" manuver to ignite the fight didn't simply start a brawl that had become inevitable. So, really, if not even the EIC of Marvel has a clear idea of what fandom thinks, either he's intentionally steering or he's out of touch. And intentional steering will be fine so long as the payoff is worth it. I just get a feeling that with all the insistance on changing things by the sword of destruction, a LOT of characters won't be the same.

Yeah it was gonna end in a brawl regardless.

 

[Marcdachamp]

I hope Mach IV sticks around Thunderbolts. Songbird's gonna need SOME help controlling that team, and he's easily one of my favorite T-Bolts.

 

[Dread]

Well Ironman hasn't found that creative team with that right 'Magic' to get him in the place he needs to be. It seems all the major Avengers with solo titles are in a good place and have been gaining steam Hulk,Cap,Thor,She-Hulk,even BlackPanther all but Ironman.

What is it that's not clicking with Ironman?

To be fair, BLACK PANTHER and SHE-HULK are hardly strong sellers, and who only saw some recent boosts due to CW tie-ins (hence why the "Marriage of the Century" was quickly slapped wit some CW "ceasefire" bullocks to captilize). And INCREDIBLE HULK one could argue is gaining steam from "Planet Hulk".

It also didn't help that the first 6 issues of the relaunched IRON MAN were slow moving and came out VERY late. When books rarely ship, sometimes fan anticipation can die down. Unfortunately this doesn't happen as often as logic would suggest, which is part of why Marvel answers questions regarding late books that usually always sell within the Top 30 with a "what does it matter, you sheep will always buy it" sort of message. They don't care because they can delay a book a few months or years and it always sells.

Plus, IRON MAN is a bit behind the CW bandwagon. Plus, perhaps he has become one of those characters who is more interesting in an ensemble cast than in a solo book, but usually maintains a solo because of history.

Millar I think truly loves superheroes, I get the sense that he's trying to push the stories away from the predictable. To the point where supervillians actually win. I think he's for all his faults wants to save superhero comics.

That was what always threw me off about Millar. Whenever he usually does an interview, when he's not wisecracking or so on, he does seem to genuinely like the genre and superheroes. So it always seems so strange that he'll put out something like, say, ULTIMATES 2, which has spent so long exaggerating all of the Ultimates' foibles that they all seem like jackasses. A lot of his work is also dragged down by cynicism and recently, extremist liberalism. Plus, a story where the villians win is called a tragedy, and while for Shakespeare it worked for a play (or later movie versions), investing 6-12 months of your time and money into reading something that turns out to be a downer can be very draining. That is a lesson I hope Marvel understood when they scripted whatever ending to CW #7. Destruction is exciting at first but too much of it and you breed apathy, and the books can sometimes take a downturn.

Plus, eventually, you run out of worthwhile stuff (characters, teams, relationships, etc) to destroy and you then need to create something. But that usually takes time, and in this market, Marvel is not as likely to be willing to invest time for the future versus "300,000 sales on 5 books, NOW!" sort of flash-in-the-pan sales. I mean, true INFINITE CRISIS saw a major boost for DC, but now it's over and a few books are in a sales or creative lull. Events are like steroids to the industry; great in the short term, unhealthy in the long term. But humans in general seem unable to think well in the long term, especially whatever humans who get to positions of power. The world demands results in the "now" and those who provide it, future be damned, exceed. Perhaps expecting more from Marvel at times is thus folly. Marvel and fandom are microcosms of the rest of the world. But that's a lesson we all hate learning, hence why it's easier to bark at Joe Q and not rather why it seems most EIC's think a certain way.

And I also get the sense that Millar sometimes is the sort of guy who likes to be "edgy" and shocking too much, which means sometimes he tries too hard and it doesn't work.