Justice League Next version of Superman needs to be powered down...a lot!!!

[elgaz]

I for one don't think he needs depowered at all. Superman has always been one of the most powerful superheroes in the universe, and certainly one of the strongest on Earth. I have no issues with them portraying it that way on screen. I want him to be a powerhouse.

I feel that powering him down is a cheap way out when writers can't come up with something that can threaten him. Smallville used to do it every week with Kryptonite ........... aka "meteor rock". Superman is obviously physically strong, but that doesn't mean he can't be threatened - look at "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" as a way of showcasing how he can be forced into a corner sometimes.

I also like the idea of a team where the players aren't all identical in terms of strength; they all have their own areas where they excel.

Superman has physical strength by the bucketload. But he can't control the oceans like Aquaman, he doesn't have the ruthlessness and strategising that Batman has, he doesn't have the tech and control of data/information that Cyborg has. I suspect he doesn't have the ultimate speed that Flash has either, not to the extent that he can time travel - though this newbie Flash in JL hasn't quite hit those highs yet. And finally, whilst him and Wonder Woman are similar, her background, gender and warrior-like outlook enable her to have a very different perspective on things sometimes.

JL only showed us a physical fight, where Superman will always excel because of strength. There will be other situations where the attributes of other team members are needed more.

Its clear that not one from the League wanted to fight him and especially Wonder Woman, its been made pretty clear that they all held back or were surprised by Clark.

Use the motherbox as excuse but dont repeat it, make a league necessary, dont overpower one character or the other.
There needs to be a reason why the league is needed.

It's hard to know if they were holding back. Obviously they seemed apprehensive when he was standing watching them, and WW was reluctant to engage him, but when they all actually went at him - Superman had WW and Aquaman held back with one hand on each, Cyborg was trying to push him back with no success, and he was simultaneously tracking Flash with his eyes as he supersped towards him. I didn't get a sense they were not really exerting themselves.

As strong as Superman is, he can't deal with every threat. Some aren't physical at all, but are manipulation/control. Some could be magical. Some, like Darkseid, could be physically on a par or stronger than Superman. Some require him to be in two places at once, which he can't do even with superspeed. Some threats may take him offworld and leave Earth exposed. That's why there is a League; they are all there to back each other up. Not only that, but the dynamics of a team and differing perspectives help keep even Superman in check sometimes.

 

[PacificBoy]

Therein lies part of the difficulty in successfully adapting a live-action Superman. His power scaling and how it affects the story and his characterization.

 

[Mani-Man]

It's hard to know if they were holding back. Obviously they seemed apprehensive when he was standing watching them, and WW was reluctant to engage him, but when they all actually went at him - Superman had WW and Aquaman held back with one hand on each, Cyborg was trying to push him back with no success, and he was simultaneously tracking Flash with his eyes as he supersped towards him. I didn't get a sense they were not really exerting themselves.

As strong as Superman is, he can't deal with every threat. Some aren't physical at all, but are manipulation/control. Some could be magical. Some, like Darkseid, could be physically on a par or stronger than Superman. Some require him to be in two places at once, which he can't do even with superspeed. Some threats may take him offworld and leave Earth exposed. That's why there is a League; they are all there to back each other up. Not only that, but the dynamics of a team and differing perspectives help keep even Superman in check sometimes.

Hm, i guess it comes down to the viewpoint of the scene.
I thought right from the start that they were completely thrown off and couldnt deal with a more or less "unhinged" Superman.
They wanted him to help not to fight him.

I think when it comes to the brute strength, Superman is the strongest in the Justice League.
Wonder Woman for example has super strength but what makes her be able to stand toe to toe with Superman is her training etc...but in sheer strength he overpowers her.
So i didnt thought it was such a problem that he could "beat" her.
I always feel like a Unhinged Superman is one of the most dangerous beings, when he has no real control over himself, no moral compass etc...not even the JL can defeat him without help of Kryptonite or so.

 

[elgaz]

Hm, i guess it comes down to the viewpoint of the scene.
I thought right from the start that they were completely thrown off and couldnt deal with a more or less "unhinged" Superman.
They wanted him to help not to fight him.

I think when it comes to the brute strength, Superman is the strongest in the Justice League.
Wonder Woman for example has super strength but what makes her be able to stand toe to toe with Superman is her training etc...but in sheer strength he overpowers her.
So i didnt thought it was such a problem that he could "beat" her.
I always feel like a Unhinged Superman is one of the most dangerous beings, when he has no real control over himself, no moral compass etc...not even the JL can defeat him without help of Kryptonite or so.

Agreed. What would have made a good scene in JL (and which was in the comics) was some kind of interaction between Clark and Bruce at the end of the film where Bruce offers to destroy the remnants of the Kryptonite spear, but Clark tells him no - to keep it if he ever needs it. It would have been a fitting end to the story arc which began with Batman wanting to kill Superman, but ending with both men mutually trusting one another to do the right thing. Thus if Superman was ever 'unhinged' again, they'd have a contingency.

 

[SilverBatarangs]

I disagree. We have an unapologetically super Superman.
That's the whole point of Superman, and also meshes well with
Bruce's nightmare/vision in BvS. I like that they made him stronger.

As far as where to go, he needs to be put up against villains who can match him.
I really hope that Brainiac is the villain for MoS 2.

 

[spider-neil]

You can't respect the hero or villain when the hero can simply ***** slap the villain into next week. Where's the conflict?

Also, if Superman can take down his teammates with breaking a sweat then what's the point in having teammates. Poor decision.

 

[Legendver2]

Nah man. Superman needs to go Ultra Instinct next time. Gimme that OP goodness!

 

[DeadlyDiarrhea]

And most of the people praising it are Superman fans. And Superman fans were whining about his portrayal in the last two movies. Funny how that works, fans don't like it when their heroes are portrayed badly.

And MOS is irrelevant here. In the context of JL, Superman overpowers the JL alone and then makes the villain that the rest of them struggled against together look like a threatless punk.

So don't give me that crap about "well he wasn't portrayed as better than all of them combined here" because he was.

It's simple, JUST DON'T WRITE THAT SCENE!! I don't care what their excuse was, there was no reason to write scenes where Superman blitzes the entire JL and then smacks around the baddie like he's nothing. It was completely unnecessary (especially since BVS was centered around a hero vs. hero fight) and made the others look bad for no good reason.

Quite honestly, if Superman wasn't written with such a cynical and defeatist attitude and letting random plot devices and MacGuffins get the better of him in BvS, then this whole apology to Superman fans by making him obscenely overpowered probably wouldn't even have happened.

I for one don't think he needs depowered at all. Superman has always been one of the most powerful superheroes in the universe, and certainly one of the strongest on Earth. I have no issues with them portraying it that way on screen. I want him to be a powerhouse.

I feel that powering him down is a cheap way out when writers can't come up with something that can threaten him. Smallville used to do it every week with Kryptonite ........... aka "meteor rock". Superman is obviously physically strong, but that doesn't mean he can't be threatened - look at "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" as a way of showcasing how he can be forced into a corner sometimes.

I also like the idea of a team where the players aren't all identical in terms of strength; they all have their own areas where they excel.

Superman has physical strength by the bucketload. But he can't control the oceans like Aquaman, he doesn't have the ruthlessness and strategising that Batman has, he doesn't have the tech and control of data/information that Cyborg has. I suspect he doesn't have the ultimate speed that Flash has either, not to the extent that he can time travel - though this newbie Flash in JL hasn't quite hit those highs yet. And finally, whilst him and Wonder Woman are similar, her background, gender and warrior-like outlook enable her to have a very different perspective on things sometimes.

JL only showed us a physical fight, where Superman will always excel because of strength. There will be other situations where the attributes of other team members are needed more.



It's hard to know if they were holding back. Obviously they seemed apprehensive when he was standing watching them, and WW was reluctant to engage him, but when they all actually went at him - Superman had WW and Aquaman held back with one hand on each, Cyborg was trying to push him back with no success, and he was simultaneously tracking Flash with his eyes as he supersped towards him. I didn't get a sense they were not really exerting themselves.

As strong as Superman is, he can't deal with every threat. Some aren't physical at all, but are manipulation/control. Some could be magical. Some, like Darkseid, could be physically on a par or stronger than Superman. Some require him to be in two places at once, which he can't do even with superspeed. Some threats may take him offworld and leave Earth exposed. That's why there is a League; they are all there to back each other up. Not only that, but the dynamics of a team and differing perspectives help keep even Superman in check sometimes.

I just can't be convinced of the notion that Superman's power level needs to be an order of magnitude above the rest of the league and that the plot needs to be written around that premise. Because that's precisely how the JL movie approached it and it removed all tension and stakes. It's not simply strength level that somehow dwarfs all other members, Superman also has heat vision, flight, super speed comparable to Flash, ice breath, etc.

It's coming across less like Justice League and more like Superman and his helpers; right now, Superman's power and strength level are so superior to the rest of the league (i.e. he makes WW completely impotent, his speed is comparable to the Flash, he can physically hold off 3 JL members like nobody's business) that the rest of the league is there to fill niche supporting roles, i.e. additional bodies, something that requires water, or hacking, etc. I can't see how this is a good idea for team films, with writers having to deal with this gross imbalance of one character having such overwhelming dominance. It’s not just Superman; I would be equally annoyed if WW or any member of the league was disproportionately powerful compared to the rest.

Not only that, even Superman being the absolute strongest in the JL has not been established as fact in DC comic universe, as in some interpretations WW and Aquaman are at least at his level (and sometimes not, it really varies by writers). You may want him to be an absolute powerhouse like in JL compared to the rest of the league, but his utter dominance is not established as fact by DC and it's also completely inconsistent to his (admittedly questionable) portrayal in BvS. This in my mind speaks for rather incompetent filmmaking in both BvS and JL.

Hm, i guess it comes down to the viewpoint of the scene.
I thought right from the start that they were completely thrown off and couldnt deal with a more or less "unhinged" Superman.
They wanted him to help not to fight him.

I think when it comes to the brute strength, Superman is the strongest in the Justice League.
Wonder Woman for example has super strength but what makes her be able to stand toe to toe with Superman is her training etc...but in sheer strength he overpowers her.
So i didnt thought it was such a problem that he could "beat" her.
I always feel like a Unhinged Superman is one of the most dangerous beings, when he has no real control over himself, no moral compass etc...not even the JL can defeat him without help of Kryptonite or so.

I still find that to be cheap and lazy writing. Essentially, all of WW's training, experience, etc. are irrelevant because Superman can become "unhinged" and some magical MacGuffin like Kryptonite is the answer to that.

But let's be honest though, at this point in the DCEU, all the characters are simply arbitrarily powerful, i.e. however powerful the plot needs them to be at the moment, whether that's for drama, for fanservice, etc. Which frankly sucks for all of the characters.

 

[DeadlyDiarrhea]

double post, delete.

 

[Skrilla31]

Superman's power level should be a natural progression from film to film. In the beginning you start by having him perform more smaller superfeats and you gradually build them up over time.

Most importantly you to have to establish that he is a blue collar superhero and that this Superman gig isn't easy. This guy goes to work and puts it out there on the line everyday and he doesn't even have to.

These buildings are heavy.

 

[lukebrodyg]

I laughed when WW tells Aquaman they have to contain him and Supes punches the gills out of him. Haha

 

[misjuevos]

I enjoyed seeing how powerful superman is.

If superman does have a weakness to magic though, then Wonder Woman's lasso should have done something to him. Maybe his arm goes numb or we see it get some weird colored veins like he was being poisoned or something by it touching his skin.

 

[Mani-Man]

I still find that to be cheap and lazy writing. Essentially, all of WW's training, experience, etc. are irrelevant because Superman can become "unhinged" and some magical MacGuffin like Kryptonite is the answer to that.

But let's be honest though, at this point in the DCEU, all the characters are simply arbitrarily powerful, i.e. however powerful the plot needs them to be at the moment, whether that's for drama, for fanservice, etc. Which frankly sucks for all of the characters.

You have to take this up to DC comics.
They have established that Superman is the hard hitter.
That was always the way as far as i remember.
Yeah in the end WW training etc is irrelevant, that is why for example Batman tries his best to be prepared for everything...because he knows that his training and strength has its limits.
Wonder Woman can definitly go toe to toe with Superman because of her Super Strength, speed, training and experience...but Superman simply hits harder than her.
There is nothing wrong with that i think.
WW is the best fighter in the DC universe but not the strongest.
That is what makes the Justice League so interesting, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Superman's power level should be a natural progression from film to film. In the beginning you start by having him perform more smaller superfeats and you gradually build them up over time.

Most importantly you to have to establish that he is a blue collar superhero and that this Superman gig isn't easy. This guy goes to work and puts it out there on the line everyday and he doesn't even have to.

These buildings are heavy.

That would have been a nice effect but i guess destroying smallville and Metropolis looked cooler. t:
We have gone too fast imo with this all, i would have loved to see Clark slowly become this symbol that Superman is.

 

[kingcharmingman]

Superman is indeed very strong, yes it's superman!
But do the writer need to show how strong superman is by underpowering all his justice league teammates?

We all know superman is strong but this is justice league, audience want to see how powerful justice league is, not how powerful superman compared to other league member.

It's like making your lead actor strong by making other supporting cast silly.
It makes justice league looks unnecessary, like the only justice league true mission was to bring back superman.
Like the whole film was made to highlight superman, not justice league as the title suggested.

But superman's fans didnt get this memo from the trailer or else they will all come to theatre to watch superman beat everybody's asses, hence contribute to high box office and reception.

I think this was a bad strategy, marketing and writing.

General audience didnt like bvs, they didnt like how superman was portrait there (general audience, not die hard bvs fans).
So if u wanna highlight superman, show that in trailers, change the title to some kinda rise of superman, then he can overpower all his fellow superheroes and superman fans happy.

Currently the most prospective fans out there are ww fans and batfleck fans, they are the one prospective to contribute to box office and reception.
But they make ww less powerful and batfleck somewhat...i dont know...unappealing?

Wb, zs and jw really didnt expect ww to be such success and gained so many fans.
They can do reshoots but jl's plot was practically established by that time.

Like say avengers, marvel knew rdj ironman was fans favorite, thats why in final confrontation, they gave ironman the most highlight, most dialogue and he get to be the one who destroyed chitauri mother ship, not thor.
Thats marketing for word of mouth cos ironman fans was the most at that time.

----

But superman?
Superman fans didnt know how long superman gonna show or what his role gonna be? Is he just cameo? 5 minutes show? End credit scene?

Also the character of superman in bvs havent been strongly established. That moustache issue also disturbing and not even a picture of superman in any posters....

 

[gerrym51]

For Superman solo movies-he has a gallery of equally powerful foes.

For JL- psychic attacks-red solar ray attacks etc.

He can be weakened. However his really powerful stuff should not be on the actual villian.

It should be on things ONLY superman can do

stopping asteroids-flying into the sun-drilling into the earth's core-pushing california back together-

disaster type stuff


as i've thought before as an example-Batman finds ways to incapacitate Superman-but Batman is not going to stop a plunging asteroid

 

[valmont]

Wb, zs and jw really didnt expect ww to be such success and gained so many fans.

Yeah, they clearly didn't expect it. And I've seen quite a few disappointed fans out there. Some who lost interest in the film.
Imagine how downplayed she would have been during the reshoots had her movie not be such a huge succes.

It should be on things ONLY superman can do

That should be true for any member of the league. Sadly they didn't really exploit it to it's full potential in this film.

 

[heatvision38]

I enjoyed seeing how powerful superman is.

If superman does have a weakness to magic though, then Wonder Woman's lasso should have done something to him. Maybe his arm goes numb or we see it get some weird colored veins like he was being poisoned or something by it touching his skin.

Why? The lasso would have the same effect on Superman as it would on anyone else. Superman isn't more specifically vulnerable to magic than normal people. It's possible that WW might have gotten Superman to come to his senses the longer he held the lasso as she was trying to get through to him, but he yanked her in before she could get any further.

 

[zmystico]

I think Superman as a character himself has and likely will always have the problem of being overpowered. In JL, I noticed I started enjoying the movie LESS once he returned, and I flat out hated that he was comparable in speed to the Flash...it almost makes the Flash pointless on the team because Superman can do anything he does. I don't think Wonder Woman should be able to stand toe-to-toe with Superman in a fist fight, and considering they only clashed once, it fit with what was going on at the time.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

 

[titansupes]

Why? The lasso would have the same effect on Superman as it would on anyone else. Superman isn't more specifically vulnerable to magic than normal people. It's possible that WW might have gotten Superman to come to his senses the longer he held the lasso as she was trying to get through to him, but he yanked her in before she could get any further.

Yep. Superman isn't especially vulnerable to magic as he is with Kryptonite, it's just that he has no special immunity to it. It affects him as it does everyone else.

 

[Cats]

Why? The lasso would have the same effect on Superman as it would on anyone else. Superman isn't more specifically vulnerable to magic than normal people. It's possible that WW might have gotten Superman to come to his senses the longer he held the lasso as she was trying to get through to him, but he yanked her in before she could get any further.

Instead of yanking the rope she should've asked him, "Who do you love the most?"

Superman: Lois Lane of co..... Oooh.. Lois!

Problem solved. Don't need to bring in the big guns.

 

[Bren]

As much of a massive Superman fanboy I am, I don't want to see him walking over the league.

WW - I would think and hope he'd beat her in a protracted fight, but she'd give almost as much as she'd get.
(Newbie) Flash would be untouchable but at this state of development, not be able to actually hurt Superman. Would be a hell of an irritation and distraction though.
I would think this Aquaman wouldn't last too long. Not as strong or as fast as even WW, and nowhere near the fighter.
Cyborg should never really pose a physical threat to Superman, and that's fine. He's still plenty strong, but his strengths lie elsewhere, compared to Superman.

I don't think they went overboard with Superman, I think they undercooked WW's ability and Flash's speed. And Steppenwolf's 'everything' after Superman entered the game.

 

[heatvision38]

I think Superman as a character himself has and likely will always have the problem of being overpowered. In JL, I noticed I started enjoying the movie LESS once he returned, and I flat out hated that he was comparable in speed to the Flash...it almost makes the Flash pointless on the team because Superman can do anything he does. I don't think Wonder Woman should be able to stand toe-to-toe with Superman in a fist fight, and considering they only clashed once, it fit with what was going on at the time.

Flash is still learning and developing his powers, I'm assuming. He could get faster.

 

[metaphysician]

Yep. Superman isn't especially vulnerable to magic as he is with Kryptonite, it's just that he has no special immunity to it. It affects him as it does everyone else.

Which should mean, he's vulnerable to magic. Because if he has no special immunity to it, it should hurt him just like a normal human, rather than an invulnerable demigod.

This is why I hate the magic "weakness": because its almost never allowed to be an actual weakness. It always gets rules lawyered to try and explain why, yes, he totally has a weakness, even though this JLA-level magical opponent somehow doesn't flatten his ass effortlessly.

 

[spider-neil]

You saw Superman completely dominated Wonder Woman.
You saw Superman keep up with The Flash.
Tell me, what's the point of the League?
The JL cartoon where they show the origin (episode 1) did a much better job showing Superman needs the league and the league needs Superman.