The Dark Knight Nolan needs more imagination.

[Crooklyn]

In general, if I can't buy a character as a plausibly "real" person in terms of personality, I don't like them. Jameson falls into that category. He couldn't be more fake-feeling. He's always been a larger-than-life character, but I felt he could have been handled a little more believably.

Take it from me...there are TONS of people in NYC just like Jameson. There's a reason why a lot of tourists hate us.

Power-ranger Green Goblin, goofy-looking scientific machinery... things like that. It all looks entirely fake to me, and that doesn't have to do with it being outlandish. The production design of the Spidey films doesn't do much for me.

Agreed on GG, damn horrible. I thought Doc Ock was fantastic though. Not sure if I've really noticed any production design though, they seem to use a lot of real-world locations. Can't say it has ever bothered me, how Raimi captures the city is plain gorgeous.

 

[Agentsands77]

Take it from me...there are TONS of people in NYC just like Jameson. There's a reason why a lot of tourists hate us.

Nah. I've lived in NYC before... there are plenty of larger-than-life people, but there's a difference between larger-than-life and the Jameson of the Spidey flicks. He's blatantly cartoony.

Not sure if I've really noticed any production design though, they seem to use a lot of real-world locations.

Oh, it's thinks like the Oscorp laboratory in the first film, or the military testing site. SPIDER-MAN 2 was much better in this regard, but there were still moments in that that bothered me (my issues with SPIDER-MAN 2 were more along the lines of jarringly bad dialogue, jarringly cartoony moments, and lots and lots of schmaltz).

 

[Katsuro]

You make a good point, but remember that B&R's crimes were MUCH bigger. Catwoman and LoEG were just crappy movie. B&R made our souls cry. It broke our hearts.

Not mine. It made my soul howl with laughter. Come on, they kick down the doors of a rocket and ride them to the ground like surfboards. That's comedic gold!

 

[Miranda Fox]

Not mine. It made my soul howl with laughter. Come on, they kick down the doors of a rocket and ride them to the ground like surfboards. That's comedic gold!

Or Ivy getting swallowed by her own plant - I'm sure there's a terrific dirty joke there.

 

[El Payaso]

Imagination and talent Nolan has lots and lots.

All Nolan needs is to edit better and replace Holmes, Murphy and Goyer.

 

[batmaluco]

Imagination and talent Nolan has lots and lots.

All Nolan needs is to edit better and replace Holmes, Murphy and Goyer.

Done.

 

[Agentsands77]

Well, hopefully Murphy isn't out. I'd like to see him in some form or another - his casting as Jonathan Crane was inspired.

 

[DeFett]

Imagination and talent Nolan has lots and lots.

All Nolan needs is to edit better and replace Holmes, [Bold]Murphy[/Bold] and Goyer.

Whaaaaat? Why?

http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox_searchlight/sunshine/

 

[Two-Face]

Imagination and talent Nolan has lots and lots.

All Nolan needs is to edit better and replace Holmes, Murphy and Goyer.

What's wrong Cillian Murphy? I thought he was excellent as Dr Crane.

 

[El Payaso]

Done.

So somewhere in my youth or childhood
I must have done something good

Well, hopefully Murphy isn't out. I'd like to see him in some form or another - his casting as Jonathan Crane was inspired.

Yeah, maybe this time Scarecrow can be defeated by a squirrel. Some worthy villiain.

Whaaaaat? Why?

http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox_searchlight/sunshine/

I don't know about that movie, maybe he was good there.

What's wrong Cillian Murphy? I thought he was excellent as Dr Crane.

I can't think of Crane as a affeminate pretty face, whose scary side resides just in wide open eyes and sissy gestures, and who can be defeated by a girl in a scene that I still can't tell whether it was intended as comedy or... whatever it was.

That last scene, with him finally as Scarecrow was a disrespectful mockery towards the character. Unwatchable. I didn't appreciate that one tiny bit. Partty of the reason why Begins will not stand as a top movie for me.

 

[batmaluco]

So somewhere in my youth or childhood
I must have done something good

[David Bowie]I never done good things
I never done bad things
I never did anything out of the blue, woh-o-oh[/David Bowie]

 

[Two-Face]

I can't think of Crane as a affeminate pretty face, whose scary side resides just in wide open eyes and sissy gestures, and who can be defeated by a girl in a scene that I still can't tell whether it was intended as comedy or... whatever it was.

But you know scarecrow always been a wimp in comics so what's deal with him been defeated by Rachel in BB? The only thing his got his fear gas...

 

[El Payaso]

But you know scarecrow always been a wimp in comics so what's deal with him been defeated by Rachel in BB? The only thing his got his fear gas...

Scarecrow has always been an ugly guy, and that brought him pain which led him to fear researching. Nothing like Murphy's version.

And then, if you're looking for a good narration then you must use a worthy villiain. Let's say we're making a Superman ,movie and we choose an average burglar as a villiain. Superman takes him to jail in 10 seconds. The End.

Can we say the common burglar is that way so the story is told right? I'd say the writer needs to choose a more interesting challenge or make the character a more interesting challenge otherwise it doesn't worth the while.

Crane has the fear gas. Luthor has kryptonite. It should be enough to make them a true threaten for the hero.

When I saw that last scene I felt not only they were disrespecting the character - I've seen Scarecrowe fighting Batman successfully in many comic books - but a feeling like, well, they showed me this new villiain starting his career step by step throughout all the movie... for THIS?? Terrible narrative. It was like Nolan reached the end of the movie and had no time or ideas of what to do with the character.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

It wasn't Murphy's fault that he went out like a punk. A bad directorial decision has no bearing on an otherwise spot-on performance.

And I'd rather have a good-looking guy be uncharacteristically creepy and sadistic than have a stereotypical "weird looking" oddball (like fan fav Buscemi), accuracy to the source material be damned.

 

[Agentsands77]

Scarecrow has always been an ugly guy, and that brought him pain which led him to fear researching. Nothing like Murphy's version.

Well, for me, I never liked the Scarecrow's origin in the comics, and didn't even particularly like the character until some recent interpretations. I found his Dr. Jonathan Crane much more frightening and interesting than any Dr. Jonathan Crane I've seen in the comics.

Crane has the fear gas. Luthor has kryptonite. It should be enough to make them a true threaten for the hero.

Yeah, and Crane was enough of a threat for Batman earlier, when he actually set the dude on fire and sent him crashing out of a window. That's threatening.

But at the end of the day, the Scarecrow's always been a second-rate villain who Batman could take down fairly easily. Scarecrow's only source of power resides in gadgetry, and since he doesn't really have that there, it makes only sense that a taser could take him.

Now, narratively, it probably wasn't the best choice (I can acknowledge your gripes with it, but all of the 20 times I've seen the film, it's never bothered me one bit), but since they'd already established he was a second-tier villain with some tricks, I didn't think it was really jarring.

 

[batmaluco]

Scarecrow has always been an ugly guy, and that brought him pain which led him to fear researching. Nothing like Murphy's version.

And then, if you're looking for a good narration then you must use a worthy villiain. Let's say we're making a Superman ,movie and we choose an average burglar as a villiain. Superman takes him to jail in 10 seconds. The End.

Can we say the common burglar is that way so the story is told right? I'd say the writer needs to choose a more interesting challenge or make the character a more interesting challenge otherwise it doesn't worth the while.

Crane has the fear gas. Luthor has kryptonite. It should be enough to make them a true threaten for the hero.

When I saw that last scene I felt not only they were disrespecting the character - I've seen Scarecrowe fighting Batman successfully in many comic books - but a feeling like, well, they showed me this new villiain starting his career step by step throughout all the movie... for THIS?? Terrible narrative. It was like Nolan reached the end of the movie and had no time or ideas of what to do with the character.

At least Nolan chose two villains. Ra's Al Ghul being a greater threaten than Scarecrow.

I don't care that Scarecrow was so easily defeated by a girl. For me, this was the point, you know, Scarecrow being a harmless coward without his fear gas to help him to look scary.

In any case, we all know that after Nolan, all this game can be re-started and we will probably see Scarecrow again, maybe then a greater threat than this version that we saw.

I know there's no "definitive version" of a character, only favorite or least-favorite versions and we are all looking forward to see what he can do with our favorite green haired psychopath.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Sir, I must respectfully disagree.

Yeah, maybe this time Scarecrow can be defeated by a squirrel. Some worthy villiain.

To begin with, as I have argued with The Guard many times, I have never thought of Scarecrow as a particularly physical villain. His fear gas helps him level the playing field, because he's not a fighter, not a tough guy. With his fear gas he can incapacitate people and do whatever he wants to with him.

Traditionally if you can overcome the feargas, Scarecrow goes down easily enough. And, well, Rachel had been innoculated against the toxin, which means that she wasn't incapacitated. She had her tazer. And Scarecrow, believing himself to have the edge, was monologuing. So she zapped him.

Is it a chumpish way to go out? Absolutely. But that's what I expect of Scarecrow.

Also, it's not Murphy's decision that he went out that way. Blame Nolan and Goyer for that one, if blame you must place.

But like Speech says, "the man who points his finger at anyone else, has got four other fingers pointing back to his self."

I can't think of Crane as a affeminate pretty face, whose scary side resides just in wide open eyes and sissy gestures, and who can be defeated by a girl in a scene that I still can't tell whether it was intended as comedy or... whatever it was.[/quote]

So you're accustomed to Crane being ugly and moody, I understand that. But being an effeminate little man has to be quite emasculating, which can jus as easily lead to an interest in fear. No doubt a guy like that has been bullied most of his life by larger, hairier men...

 

[El Payaso]

It wasn't Murphy's fault that he went out like a punk. A bad directorial decision has no bearing on an otherwise spot-on performance.

Stiull, as an actor you could do a better job trying to be scary than just talk whispering and opening eyes.

And I'd rather have a good-looking guy be uncharacteristically creepy and sadistic than have a stereotypical "weird looking" oddball (like fan fav Buscemi), accuracy to the source material be damned.

Any reason?

Well, for me, I never liked the Scarecrow's origin in the comics, and didn't even particularly like the character until some recent interpretations. I found his Dr. Jonathan Crane much more frightening and interesting than any Dr. Jonathan Crane I've seen in the comics.

Interesting as in having no reason for his researches on fear or interesting as in laughably beatable?

Yeah, and Crane was enough of a threat for Batman earlier, when he actually set the dude on fire and sent him crashing out of a window. That's threatening.

And all Batman needed was a electric device. That makes Batman look wimp now.

But at the end of the day, the Scarecrow's always been a second-rate villain who Batman could take down fairly easily. Scarecrow's only source of power resides in gadgetry, and since he doesn't really have that there, it makes only sense that a taser could take him.

It makes sense yes. What doesn't is they included him if they planned to make him just a wimp.

Now, narratively, it probably wasn't the best choice (I can acknowledge your gripes with it, but all of the 20 times I've seen the film, it's never bothered me one bit), but since they'd already established he was a second-tier villain with some tricks, I didn't think it was really jarring.

They could have kept some dignity for him even if he's a second-tier villiain.

At least Nolan chose two villains. Ra's Al Ghul being a greater threaten than Scarecrow.

Oh, phew.

I don't care that Scarecrow was so easily defeated by a girl. For me, this was the point, you know, Scarecrow being a harmless coward without his fear gas to help him to look scary.

How great point to prove. 2:30 hours movie worthy.

In any case, we all know that after Nolan, all this game can be re-started and we will probably see Scarecrow again, maybe then a greater threat than this version that we saw.

One would hope.

In any case, any other director could have make him greater in just one movie.

I know there's no "definitive version" of a character, only favorite or least-favorite versions and we are all looking forward to see what he can do with our favorite green haired psychopath.

I hope something a little more worthy than what he did with Crane/Scarecrow.

 

[El Payaso]

To begin with, as I have argued with The Guard many times, I have never thought of Scarecrow as a particularly physical villain. His fear gas helps him level the playing field, because he's not a fighter, not a tough guy. With his fear gas he can incapacitate people and do whatever he wants to with him.

It would be a good idea to make that device useful. Specially for a movie's climax you know, where things are supposed to be more dangerous than before.

Traditionally if you can overcome the feargas, Scarecrow goes down easily enough. And, well, Rachel had been innoculated against the toxin, which means that she wasn't incapacitated. She had her tazer. And Scarecrow, believing himself to have the edge, was monologuing. So she zapped him.

We can also have Superman beating Lex Luthor, the human, in 5 seconds. It would make sense also.

Is it a chumpish way to go out? Absolutely. But that's what I expect of Scarecrow.

You despise the character. If you had said say this in the first place,...

Now if Nolan thinks the same, he could have done it earlier, so he wouldn't create expectatives about him.

Also, it's not Murphy's decision that he went out that way. Blame Nolan and Goyer for that one, if blame you must place.

Oh, I blame them.

But like Speech says, "the man who points his finger at anyone else, has got four other fingers pointing back to his self."

The first finger says 'you're guilty, the other four say 'I'm the one who blames you - I'm the one who blames you - I'm the one who blames you - I'm the one who blames you'

So you're accustomed to Crane being ugly and moody, I understand that. But being an effeminate little man has to be quite emasculating, which can jus as easily lead to an interest in fear. No doubt a guy like that has been bullied most of his life by larger, hairier men...

Well, I'm doing it, aren't I?

 

[Agentsands77]

Stiull, as an actor you could do a better job trying to be scary than just talk whispering and opening eyes.

What would you suggest?

Interesting as in having no reason for his researches on fear or interesting as in laughably beatable?

We don't need to know everything about a character to make him interesting - he worked for me. I could imagine his character having a rather interesting backstory. It's obvious he liked fear because it gave him power, and he wanted that, probably because in life he hadn't had much of it.

It makes sense yes. What doesn't is they included him if they planned to make him just a wimp.

Sure it does. They needed someone to be making the chemicals. Doesn't mean they needed a supervillain, hell, the film never sets him out to be one of Batman's greatest foes.

How great point to prove. 2:30 hours movie worthy.

Not a whole lot of energy was spent developing his character - Dr. Jonathan Crane was mostly a plot device. It wasn't like the movie went out its way to establish that point.

It would be a good idea to make that device useful. Specially for a movie's climax you know, where things are supposed to be more dangerous than before.

The entire Narrows was flooded in fear gas. What device of Crane's would be useful at that point?

We can also have Superman beating Lex Luthor, the human, in 5 seconds. It would make sense also.

And when he's stripped of all of his machinations, that would make a lot of sense, don't you think? Besides, Scarecrow isn't remotely close to Luthor's league as a villain.

The character's no weaker than he's often been treated in the comics. See THE LONG HALLOWEEN (or any of the Loeb/Sale team-ups, for that matter), where he's little more than a costumed crazy with a gimmick, and easily dispatchable.

Now if Nolan thinks the same, he could have done it earlier, so he wouldn't create expectatives about him.

I assume you mean "expectations," but frankly, I didn't see any big expectations building about Jonathan Crane in the film. He was always a second-rate villain, and the movie never built him up to be anything more. When he went out in second-rate fashion, it fit.

 

[El Payaso]

What would you suggest?

Introverted resentful character as in comics.

We don't need to know everything about a character to make him interesting - he worked for me. I could imagine his character having a rather interesting backstory. It's obvious he liked fear because it gave him power, and he wanted that, probably because in life he hadn't had much of it.

Way better than Nolan did. Congratz.

Sure it does. They needed someone to be making the chemicals. Doesn't mean they needed a supervillain, hell, the film never sets him out to be one of Batman's greatest foes.

If for that, they could have just used an average character. Some second rate scientist, period. No need to ruin Scarecrow.

Not a whole lot of energy was spent developing his character - Dr. Jonathan Crane was mostly a plot device. It wasn't like the movie went out its way to establish that point.

I know, they limited the character to a plot device. Sad.

The entire Narrows was flooded in fear gas. What device of Crane's would be useful at that point?

What device would you need to beat a tiny girl?

And when he's stripped of all of his machinations, that would make a lot of sense, don't you think? Besides, Scarecrow isn't remotely close to Luthor's league as a villain.

The only reason is because the writer/director didn't make him one as worthy since both Luthor and Screcrow are human beings with no superpower. For that matter Joker is the same and without fear gas.

Some other director could have made him the main villiain and if not, not such a loser.

And Batman has dispatched Scarecrow plenty of times without a second thought in the comics. See THE LONG HALLOWEEN, where he's little more than a costumed crazy with a gimmick.

If Batman had done it, then it probably wouldn't have been so pathetic and semi-comedic.

I assume you mean "expectations," but frankly, I didn't see any big expectations building about Jonathan Crane in the film. He was always a second-rate villain, and the movie never built him up to be anything more. When he went out in second-rate fashion, it seemed to fit.

Then they could have forgotten about him until the sequel. Way a better idea.

 

[Agentsands77]

Introverted resentful character as in comics.

He seemed fairly introverted and resentful to me.

If for that, they could have just used an average character. Some second rate scientist, period. No need to ruin Scarecrow.

Scarecrow is an average character.

If Batman had done it, then it probably wouldn't have been so pathetic and semi-comedic.

She used a taser. It's not like she ran up to him and knocked him out with her bare hands.

 

[El Payaso]

He seemed fairly introverted and resentful to me.

How did you tell? No clue about how he was like that. He seemed pretty self-confident

Scarecrow is an average character.

No average characters, just average writers and directors.

She used a taser. It's not like she ran up to him and knocked him out with her bare hands.

So, every person in town with money for a taser could beat him. Quite a threat for Gotham.

 

[batmaluco]

And all Batman needed was a electric device. That makes Batman look wimp now.

Not really. What Batman or pratically anyone else needed was to be inoculated with the antidote for the fear toxin. End of Scarecrow.

How great point to prove. 2:30 hours movie worthy.

Not really. The Scarecrow bit took about half an hour. All the rest was about Bruce becoming Batman, two slaps of Rachel in Bruce's face and Ra's schemes of destruction.

I hope something a little more worthy than what he did with Crane/Scarecrow.

Fair enough.

 

[Agentsands77]

How did you tell? No clue about how he was like that. He seemed pretty self-confident

One can be self-confident as well as introverted and resentful.

No average characters, just average writers and directors.

The Scarecrow's always been average, a second-rate villain with a somewhat memorable gimmick, but not a whole lot of threat.

So, every person in town with money for a taser could beat him. Quite a threat for Gotham.

Yeah. He's not much of a threat at all when his fear gas has no effect.