The Dark Knight To those who think Nolan -doesn't- get "it".

[Agentsands77]

Sure, Batman can be all those things... but at his core he's a very very complex man with a somewhat sick obsession and maybe even a little insanity.

Very much depends on the interpretation. Frank Miller's Batman was clearly insane, and driven by selfish desire. Other interpretations haven't been, and Nolan sees Batman as a self-sacrificial iconic hero. I see Grant Morrison's Batman and the BTAS Batman in a similar light.

Why is Bruce Wayne so damn likeable in the movie?

Why shouldn't he be? For the vast majority of the character's history, Bruce Wayne was a pretty likeable guy, and still is in most interpretations (again, the strongly praised BTAS Wayne was quite likeable). I think that's essential.

I think one of the most tragic moves of the Batman comics of the past decade was the removal of Bruce Wayne's personality and his transformation into humorless stoic. Thankfully, we're starting to move out of that.

Does anybody realize he's obsessed with the murder of his parents to the point where he dresses up like a bat?

Again, depends on the comic interpretation. I prefer an idealistic, heroic and noble Batman.

I think the comics have often made Batman too mentally unstable, too obsessed with the murder of his parents. I've always liked to think of Batman as a man who isn't necessarily haunted by his parents, but driven by the memory of their death to fight crime, and realizes he can do it most effectively in a certain manner. I rejoiced when DEATH AND THE MAIDENS presented a story where Batman actually moved past his parent's death.

In some interpretations (Matt Wagner, for example) Batman initially thinks his crusade won't take a lifetime... he views this as redeeming a city and then being able to step down. He stays Batman not because he can't escape the urge to fight, but rather because with his appearance he unintentionally creates a whole new breed of evil, and he needs to stay to balance them out.

It's illogical and doesn't make sense.

Does dressing up in a costume to fight crime ever really make sense? Not really. But we suspend disbelief on that point, because that's the given of the genre. It doesn't mean all superheroes are innately insane, though.

And frankly, I think Nolan did a darn good job of making the whole Batman thing seem fairly reasonable, as extreme as it is.

He's too kind and too practical. With his money, he could do so much more to clean up Gotham then he could by beating people up night after night.

Doesn't Batman always do both?

I've always thought that Batman and Bruce Wayne always worked together, that the money was used to rehabilitate Gotham in some ways, and Batman was used to help Gotham in others. Haven't there been rumors about THE DARK KNIGHT having a sequence set in a tenament complex that Wayne Enterprises was constructing for aid?

But guess what... no Robin because as Bale puts it... "he's not dark enough".

Regardless of the reasons for his inclusion/lack of inclusion, this is the origin trilogy. Robin's inclusion would have to be further down the road. Batman is still too young to play the father figure.

 

[Agentsands77]

Edited

 

[larryfilmmaker]

It's nice to disagree in a mature manner. I guess I just think Batman Begins is a pretty standard and mediocre film regardless of whether or not it involves superheroes. For every part I think is great, there's a part that really irritates me. If people really are watching it and it's got them on the edge of their seat, feeling emotionally attached to the characters, and having a good time then well maybe it's just a flick I'm not connecting with. The problem is, most of the time the REASONS people to use when explaining why BB is so great are what really irritate me.

I mean, I'll admit that a scene Agent Sands mentioned, the scene where he's been gassed and is struggling to get home, that one is the one and only scene that had me extremely impressed. Batman was simply confused and horrified, and Alfred was in tears seeing his "son" in such pain. It worked so well.

But for every great moment there's one like "nice coat" that makes you roll your eyes. For every cool gas scene there's a "storm's coming". For every person who was sucked in to the "Swear to me" scene, just as many people were turned off by it. To me, it was just plain goofy and awkward. A few of us were laughing quietly. I admired what they were trying to portray... Batman as this guy who used fear and was completely into it... but just a few minutes earlier he'd been smiling and hamming it up with Alfred. He never really shows any real fire as a character so it seemed forced and awkward to me. For every cool idea, there were still plotlines as stale and predictable as Morgan vs. Rutger that you could see coming from miles away. Why, when discussing the movie, don't people acknowledge the flaws? I suppose that that is my greatest problem with Batman Begins. It's good but not flawless and yet it's defenders are adamant that it's the perfect superhero movie.

 

[Agentsands77]

I mean, I'll admit that a scene Agent Sands mentioned, the scene where he's been gassed and is struggling to get home, that one is the one and only scene that had me extremely impressed. Batman was simply confused and horrified, and Alfred was in tears seeing his "son" in such pain. It worked so well.

It's the best "dramatic" moment in BEGINS, and probably my favorite moment in all the Bat-films.

But for every great moment there's one like "nice coat" that makes you roll your eyes.

I suppose, but I feel like I could say that about all of the other Bat-films and all other superhero films (besides, I liked "nice coat," even though I respect why others don't).

Why, when discussing the movie, don't people acknowledge the flaws?

People often do. But in threads like this, where it ends up becoming a Burton versus Nolan war, people tend to get defensive and it polarizes discussion.

I suppose that that is my greatest problem with Batman Begins. It's good but not flawless and yet it's defenders are adamant that it's the perfect superhero movie.

It's far from perfect. But I think we haven't gotten anything close to a perfect superhero film, not ever. Not SUPERMAN, not BATMAN '89, not BATMAN RETURNS, not SPIDER-MAN 1 or 2, not X2, not SUPERMAN RETURNS... they're all deeply, deeply flawed, and some worse than others (in fact, I'll make the case that some of those hailed films are downright terrible - Spidey, I'm looking right at you).

As far as the superhero flicks we've gotten thus far, I think BEGINS is up at the top of the list, alongside a few others. There's room to go up, and I hope THE DARK KNIGHT is a substantial improvement, but as far as what we've got, I'm fairly happy.

 

[JamesBond007]

I honestly think Batman Begins is THE BEST superhero film I have EVER SEEN, I could never get even REMOTELY bored with it, I F***ING LOVE that film. And I am REALLY looking forward to seeing what the Joker looks like. But I am also s***ting in my pants about what the Joker looks like. I'm still kind of on the fence about whether or not I think Heath was right for the role. He is VERY YOUNG. And I've always imagined the Joker as being a lot older than Batman. If you look at his early comic book appearances, his face is just so much more creased and wrinkly than Batman's, and not just because of his smile. And I sincerely hope that the Joker has nothing to do with the birth of Two-Face, that Two-Face is created by Maroni, who will hopefully be played by James Gandolfini, and not Eric Roberts, a nobody related to a somebody.

 

[DangerousInc.]

No.



Has this been confirmed?

And, from everything we hear, the Joker's "image" will be fine.



No.


Why would it be?

What you said. I enjoyed BB and now with Joker I'll enjoy this too.

 

[Stripesy Strip]

It's nice to disagree in a mature manner. I guess I just think Batman Begins is a pretty standard and mediocre film regardless of whether or not it involves superheroes. For every part I think is great, there's a part that really irritates me. If people really are watching it and it's got them on the edge of their seat, feeling emotionally attached to the characters, and having a good time then well maybe it's just a flick I'm not connecting with. The problem is, most of the time the REASONS people to use when explaining why BB is so great are what really irritate me.

I mean, I'll admit that a scene Agent Sands mentioned, the scene where he's been gassed and is struggling to get home, that one is the one and only scene that had me extremely impressed. Batman was simply confused and horrified, and Alfred was in tears seeing his "son" in such pain. It worked so well.

But for every great moment there's one like "nice coat" that makes you roll your eyes. For every cool gas scene there's a "storm's coming". For every person who was sucked in to the "Swear to me" scene, just as many people were turned off by it. To me, it was just plain goofy and awkward. A few of us were laughing quietly. I admired what they were trying to portray... Batman as this guy who used fear and was completely into it... but just a few minutes earlier he'd been smiling and hamming it up with Alfred. He never really shows any real fire as a character so it seemed forced and awkward to me. For every cool idea, there were still plotlines as stale and predictable as Morgan vs. Rutger that you could see coming from miles away. Why, when discussing the movie, don't people acknowledge the flaws? I suppose that that is my greatest problem with Batman Begins. It's good but not flawless and yet it's defenders are adamant that it's the perfect superhero movie.

I guess It's the other way around for me: even outside of super-hero genre, the film on its own was one of the best film the year it came out. It term of acting, charaterisation and so forth. It was truly breathtaking to see.

 

[Addison]

* Does anyone here think Nolan is devoid of a true imagination?

I don't think so... I'm so happy that Joel Schumacher's imagination has nothing to do with it.

 

[Leenie]

The fanboys and the movie companies are in a relationship. The fanboys are like the girlfriend who sends mixed signals, and the movie companies are like the confused boyfriend that's about to get dumped no matter how hard he tries.

To be a bit more blunt, Nolan did a FANTASTIC job with Batman Begins. I think that Nolan "gets it," but people are still finding ways to pick the movie apart.

 

[jorel]

The Mr Nolan is a great director with great vision for Batman, understand how Burton series was ruined by too much silliness especially for the Batman and Robin. Also do not forget Mr Nolan's great work for The Prestige showed true imagination and ability to create realism to the extraordinary. Very hard to do but he was successful. The Prestige is very clever.

 

[TwilightPro101]

Nolan gets it.

 

[breyfogle_rules]

The fanboys and the movie companies are in a relationship. The fanboys are like the girlfriend who sends mixed signals, and the movie companies are like the confused boyfriend that's about to get dumped no matter how hard he tries.
.

Thats very funny.

 

[BareKnucklez]

That's why it is called an opinion. I never said he didn't get it, but I do wish he got it a little different sometimes. I do think Batman is as real as it gets, heck I try to live my life with the physicality and determination that Batman has. With that said though I wish there were things diffenent, things that if I were a director would have made different. People have to stop blindly following the beliefe Nolan is great just because the movie is great. It was a great movie, but there is always something that is better, even if it is just opinion.

opinion's are like a**holes! You know the rest...

 

[Spider-Bat]

* Does anyone here think Nolan is devoid of a true imagination?

* Originally, Nolan didn't want the Scarecrow to even wear a mask. Imagine what he might do to the Joker's image. It could be completely ruined!

* Is Nolan's Batman too dry and unimaginative?

* Could Nolan's obsession with realism be the second death of the Batman franchise?


(these questions/statements do not necessarily reflect the viewpoint of LordofHypertime or anyone associated with him.)

This is what I've been saying. The thing about The Scarecrow's mask is so dumb, why even make a comic movie then and why even have Batman in a suit then? Jeez!

Nolan is way too dry and his BB movie is dull, his Joker looks like crap and Heath is a dumb choice. Just wrong!!!

Batman may not have super powers but he does have some fantastic villians and things happen in his world.

Nolan doesn't get it. Batman just wasn't right, Nolan doesn't get that he's a scientist, he kept going to Lucious, he could have made that anti-dote himself!

 

[Spider-Bat]

I'm a huge Batman fan and want to support it and get excited but if it's not done right I just can't get into it, I tried watching BB the other day and was just bored and saw so many flaws, and I hope Nolan doesn't keep trying to just make one of his movies throwing in his 'surprise' endings in each of them.

 

[Telfie]

Whatever the case may have been with the original direction of BB, I think it's a little safer to say that Nolan does indeed get it. With what we've seen and heard about TDK, it sure points that way.