The Dark Knight To those who think Nolan -doesn't- get "it".

[batbat_29640]

I wasnt reading the comics until I was about 9, before that I just colored in all the girls lips with red marker much to my brothers chagrin
But thats how my love affair with comics got started
So I suppose I dont count. Then again I didnt watch the movie until much later, after I was actually interested in Batman.

...and yes, he kicked my arse everytime he found a comic of his I had "Completely ******* ruined!"

Well you did actually read comics before you saw Batman '89 . . . so you count. I've read some of your posts in other threads. You're well versed and you seem to draw the distinction between movies and the original source. So you count there too.

 

[thegameq]

No he doesn't get it. Anyone that insists on putting the "realism" angle on comicbook movies doesn't get it. The only thing they do get is that they need to make a hit. Which basically translates to not taking to many risks and being conservative. For all the pomp and circumstance I hear about Begins, it is just another conservative take on a fantasy driven character.
There is absolutely nothing visually stunning about the film. Nothing.

Until someone grows the balls to make a real Batman movie (detective noir type story with action and drama ala Killing Joke,TAS, etc.) we will continue to get these summer movie targeted versions of Batman. Did Nolan give nods to the comics? Yes. But like Singer, a nod or two isn't enough. Batman is not realism. The comicbook never is or was. No comicbook is. Just because the character is human doesn't automatically make the world he inhabits realistic.

Batman is an amalgamation of Zorro, the Shadow, etc. He is not some incredible, ultimate fighter, pinnacle of human development whatever--HE'S NOT CAPTAIN AMERICA FOR GODS SAKE. Jesus, I know DC had to try and make the character competitive against Marvel's stuff but have some pride.

Batman is a detective who uses theatrics and more brains than brawn. The Batman character is at his best when he is portrayed as such. Batman is noir.

Batman Begins while undeniably a very good movie is not the definitive Batman movie. It's just the another one of to many conservative attempts to make a comicbook movie.

 

[Delusive]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned but another point in the rebuilding of Wayne Manor was so the "southern" portion could be retuned...as in...transformed into the Batcave that we all know and love (Alfred's little line at the end of the movie).

 

[GL1]

Batman Begins while undeniably a very good movie is not the definitive Batman movie. It's just the another one of to many conservative attempts to make a comicbook movie.

Booyah. Like Casino Royale... certainly a good movie, but not the definitive anything. Batman Begins is further from the comics than Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Elektra, The Hulk rivaled only by the Blade series... unfortunate "proof" in Hollywood that copying mainstream comics doesn't work as well as putting 'realism' on it, since scores of fans flock behind Batman Begins while deriding Daredevil for not being like the comics. Hah.

 

[Joker Brand X]

I guess it just goes to show, that if the movie is any good people are prepared to allow a little artistic lisence, but if it sucks (like the above mentioned films....although I thought Hulk had a certain quality to it) then people woulnt like it, no matter hoe close to the comics they are.

 

[Abaddon]

I could do with a little less realism in my comicbook movies.

 

[Robin91939]

* Originally, Nolan didn't want the Scarecrow to even wear a mask. Imagine what he might do to the Joker's image. It could be completely ruined!

This is made up, by you I'm sure.

Nolan's original concept for Scarecrow was actually far more scary and graphic than what we saw in the film. This has been confirmed in the "behind the scenes" special FX footage that was released on the website of the company who did the FX for BATMAN BEGINS. There were longer scenes with the Scarecow, grosser looking maggots on his mask, etc. Also, the much rumored "stage two" Scarecrow mask was cut from production to keep the PG-13 rating.

-R

 

[Superwoman Prime]

You know what, Robin91939? I didn't make that up. I heard it from Morgoth, who loathes 'Batman Begins'. Go talk it over with him and stop trying to look like a hero, or whatever the hell your accusation was trying to do.

-LOHT

 

[Nepenthes]

if you heard it from a jilted fanboy then you should be more careful what you repeat


that stage 2 mask is lovely ^

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Lots of bull**** roams these forums. Especially the Batman forums.

 

[Mr. Socko]

He's not lying. I've heard that on numerous forums AND it's been on the Begins wiki page for about 2 years.

Now I doubt all of those people are just lying.

From what we've heard, Nolan wanted to completely ground Batman to reality in every sense until Goyer came on board. He's the one who introduced Nolan to Long Halloween, and told him which way to go on alot of things. But Nolan didn't know any better, know he does. I expect him to do a great job on the sequel.

 

[Arkard]

You know it's not that hard to believe Nolan wanted to go completely without the mask. He is not a comic book movie director, maybe he doesnt know how these things go. That is why he keeps so many comic book geeks around him as consultants.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

No he doesn't get it. Anyone that insists on putting the "realism" angle on comicbook movies doesn't get it.

So.....would you say that Sam Rami doesn't "get" Spider-Man, then?

He's not lying. I've heard that on numerous forums AND it's been on the Begins wiki page for about 2 years.

Now I doubt all of those people are just lying.

Maybe they're not all lying.

They've all just heard the same lie.

From what we've heard, Nolan wanted to completely ground Batman to reality in every sense until Goyer came on board. He's the one who introduced Nolan to Long Halloween, and told him which way to go on alot of things. But Nolan didn't know any better, know he does. I expect him to do a great job on the sequel.

Til Goyer came on board?

Nothing got done before Goyer came onboard b/c they hadn't started anything. Nolan wanted Goyer, and once he got him.....then the process began.

From what you heard, it sounds like b.s., man.

You know it's not that hard to believe Nolan wanted to go completely without the mask. He is not a comic book movie director, maybe he doesnt know how these things go. That is why he keeps so many comic book geeks around him as consultants.

I think it is hard to believe.

I think this rumor spurs from Nolan wanting to keep Crane in a suit for most of the film, which he did. So, people hear that Crane won't be wearing his insane suit for the film....all of sudden some fanboy yells that Nolan doesn't want him to wear a mask either....and then you've got yourself an urban legend.

 

[nite-owl]

I had it once, now what it is seems strange and scary to me, and it'll happen to you.

 

[GoogleMe94]

i dont mean to upset the comics nerds, but i am in the camp of ppl who thinks nolan just doesnt "get it", but not just with batman, but with comic book and comic book movies in general. i watched batman begins and i kept thinking to myself "yah all this orgin stuff ok but when is the the REAL good parts coming?". and they never came, not even at the end with the MOC spiderman 2 train sequence. it just wasnt fun for me. if there was one aspect of comic book films that nolan completely forgot, its that the movie is first and foremost supposed to be entertaining and unforgettable. batman begins is both boring AND forgettable, and not even ebert likeing it can stop that from happening. it may have been "the most 'faithful' batman yet", but is it the most fun? the most exciting? the most captivating? the most entertaining? the most unforgettable? i think not. thats reserved for the first batman film. heck, i enjoyed Returns over this new one, at least you had the gorgeus pfieffer sexing up the scenes and devitos penguin was great and looked like the comics for the most part. Burton got the weirdness of the character, the creepiness, and oddness, the outcast side of bruce wayne, and his dark side. oh, and it helps when you have an actor who isnt as stale who sounds like hes reading the script on que cards while filming. sorry peeps, but Michael Keaton will always be the best Batman to me, no matter how many other ppl they get to replace him, or how bulked up they get. a rubber suit is a rubber suit. get over it.
and can someone please explain why the heck nolan made scarecrow into lawyerman with a potatoe bag on hbis head? where was the REAL scarecrow at huh ppl?

 

[BeginsSucked]

^
Brownish, is that you?

The only thing Nolan "gets" is how to make a ridiculously pretentious movie, one so hilariously full of itself that it blows my mind.

 

[Batty Belfry]

Sparring opinions aside, as everybody has their own point of view....
I believe Chris Nolan himself coined the term in an older interview from 05, called it "heightened reality". Not everything in BB is approached from a standpoint of true realism. It just has to be enough that you could sit there and think "hmmm...it could be possible". I think too many people put too much stock in the realism aspect. It's just a style of film-making. Sure, it's not going to dovetail with everyone's sense of the character, but I think for most it works. I love the approach.

 

[Gotham22]

I wish he would have made Gotham City bizarre like how it is in the comics. Like Batman89 and B&R together. those Onstar commerical were like that.

 

[pevensie]

This is where fans differ with their tastes because I like Nolan's grimly gothic Gotham. Its crime ridden and depressingly ravaged city.

 

[Madzar]

To keep everybody out of confution, ill post this.
Ahem...
Nolan NEVER said that he didn`t want Batman to wear a cape, he just said that he wanted the cape to have a porpose. But the thing abouth a scarecrow, a heard (a long ago) that he didn`t want the scarecrow to wear a mask but Goyer talked him into it.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

No. Realism is giving people a deeper association with the character. Only rabid fan-boys would complain about that. Screw them.

YOU'RE a fanboy.

Yeah, some fanboys have ran with the realsim concept to the point that you'd swear they think BATMAN BEGINS is a documentary and not a film.

So are you.

I try to live my life with the physicality and determination that Batman has.

YOU'RE a... wait a minute... this is like a whole other level of fanboy. :0)

Nobody who is a registered member of a website called SuperheroHype.com EVER has the right to call somebody else a "fanboy" for disagreeing. People on here are getting so snobby and using it the way O'Reilly uses the word "liberal". It's America and it's a forum. Those two simple facts make it a place where people are SUPPOSED to debate.

* Does anyone here think Nolan is devoid of a true imagination?

Not completely devoid, but I do think he's very bare bones with his movies. I think Batman Begins was all "grit" (what "fanboys" love more than quality)(see Wolverine or Marv's respective movies for an example) and no heart.

* Originally, Nolan didn't want the Scarecrow to even wear a mask. Imagine what he might do to the Joker's image. It could be completely ruined!

I believe that the Joker will, like Batman in the first BB... be incredibly unlike the Joker we all know and love. However, I also think "fanboys" will love it because he will be... dark.

Is Nolan's Batman too dry and unimaginative?

For a gritty mind screw movie, I think his vision is decent. For a comic book movie, yes I believe it is too dry and unimaginative. He didn't give us "Nolan's take on Batman". He gave us a Nolan superhero movie that Batman just happened to star in.

Could Nolan's obsession with realism be the second death of the Batman franchise?

If you think, like I do, that he sort of went too far with the liberties he was taking and his obsession with "realism" in the first movie, then you will probably think his next film is the nail in the coffin. However, I could be wrong, as I haven't seen the film. Just like the people who rave about how great it will be could be wrong. They haven't seen it either. In Nolan I don't trust. I've never met him.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

i dont mean to upset the comics nerds, but i am in the camp of ppl who thinks nolan just doesnt "get it", but not just with batman, but with comic book and comic book movies in general. i watched batman begins and i kept thinking to myself "yah all this orgin stuff ok but when is the the REAL good parts coming?". and they never came, not even at the end with the MOC spiderman 2 train sequence.

You know something? That is an AMAZING way to put it. The whole BB movie felt like... mediocre. There was nothing that left you breathless, made you emotional, or gave you goosebumps. Spidey stopped the train, Supes stopped the plane and pushed a kryptonite island into the sky. Hell, not every amazingly dramatic and cool moment has to be physical action. Of course Batman can't do that. Supes' speech to his son at the end of SR (roast me, I brought up the movie some batfans have declared war on) is absolutely chilling, as are Jor-El's words to Superman. Spidey dodging the broken glass as Doc Oc kidnaps MJ is a scene that alone is more exciting than all of BB put together. There was just no adventure to me. It was just talking, prepping, talking, prepping, talking, prepping, something about a water supply and a train, the end. Everybody was so obsessed with whether or not Batman was "cool" or "just like the comics" that they failed to notice how nothing happened for two hours in a COMIC BOOK MOVIE.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

No he doesn't get it. Anyone that insists on putting the "realism" angle on comicbook movies doesn't get it. The only thing they do get is that they need to make a hit. Which basically translates to not taking to many risks and being conservative. For all the pomp and circumstance I hear about Begins, it is just another conservative take on a fantasy driven character.
There is absolutely nothing visually stunning about the film. Nothing.

Until someone grows the balls to make a real Batman movie (detective noir type story with action and drama ala Killing Joke,TAS, etc.) we will continue to get these summer movie targeted versions of Batman. Did Nolan give nods to the comics? Yes. But like Singer, a nod or two isn't enough. Batman is not realism. The comicbook never is or was. No comicbook is. Just because the character is human doesn't automatically make the world he inhabits realistic.

Batman is an amalgamation of Zorro, the Shadow, etc. He is not some incredible, ultimate fighter, pinnacle of human development whatever--HE'S NOT CAPTAIN AMERICA FOR GODS SAKE. Jesus, I know DC had to try and make the character competitive against Marvel's stuff but have some pride.

Batman is a detective who uses theatrics and more brains than brawn. The Batman character is at his best when he is portrayed as such. Batman is noir.

Batman Begins while undeniably a very good movie is not the definitive Batman movie. It's just the another one of to many conservative attempts to make a comicbook movie.

 

[Agentsands77]

There is absolutely nothing visually stunning about the film. Nothing.

Well, somebody thought there was, since the film received a Best Cinematography nomination. Personally, I like a lot of the visuals of BEGINS. Sometimes the editing is too tight on them, but there are plenty of great shots and moments throughout.

I believe that the Joker will, like Batman in the first BB... be incredibly unlike the Joker we all know and love.

Well, we know he kept all the basic physical tradmarks of the character, and the Joker's few moments in the script pages we have are really promising.

There was nothing that left you breathless, made you emotional, or gave you goosebumps.

Well, there might have been nothing that left you breathless. But there were quite a few moments where I was. The fight on the docks did that to me, or the "SWEAR TO ME!" or Batman on fear gas, falling from the room, then stumbling to get to safety or the batmobile chase. Those moments did a lot for me, and there are plenty more that I'm not mentioning.

Hell, not every amazingly dramatic and cool moment has to be physical action.

Of course not. And I think that's where BATMAN BEGINS excels. For me, BEGINS was loaded with amazingly cool moments - the reigning mob-boss is chained to a light, making the first "bat-signal"? Awesome.

Now, is there room for improvement? You bet. As as result, I hope THE DARK KNIGHT is a more story-driven, detective affair with less action than BEGINS and more things of interest. The official word is that it will be that way - we'll see whether they deliver. But for the first time in Batman franchise history, I felt like a life-action Batman finally portrayed something resembling my Batman.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

It's not like I storm onto the Hype looking for reasons to knock Batman Begins. I went into the theatre thinking I was going to be blown away. See, "Fellowship of the Ring" had me absolutely flipping out when I first saw it. I knew that a Batman movie had the potential to change the way we look at superheroes, like Superman: The Movie did so long ago and Spider-Man has done recently.

I thought "please God don't let this be a dumbed down one liner fest filled with things that were supposed to be gritty but were actually pretty cheesy" and I walked out thinking maybe God hadn't heard my request haha. It just felt so EASY to me. It felt like such an easy, half assed way of making something that would be popular. It's like Miller writing "let's show some nipples on the stripper, people will like that". It just felt like some grit-obsessed director said "I'll make a popular Batman movie. I'll just make everything super COOL". Everything today is so obsessed with being rebellious, gritty, or cool.

Sure, Batman can be all those things... but at his core he's a very very complex man with a somewhat sick obsession and maybe even a little insanity. As Grayson grows older, he begins to resent how Bruce is always acting like he's a God and manipulating the actions of others. There is real story there. Why is Bruce Wayne so damn likeable in the movie? Does anybody realize he's obsessed with the murder of his parents to the point where he dresses up like a bat? Bale doesn't act like a guy who is driven enough to be that insane. It's illogical and doesn't make sense. He's too kind and too practical. With his money, he could do so much more to clean up Gotham then he could by beating people up night after night.

Nolan will never give us Robin (or so I've heard) so we'll never see the one thing that makes every man better... a son. We NEED him trying to influence somebody and that person finally growing up and saying "Bruce, you have very serious issues". It can't always be Alfred. It won't be Gordon. It has to be the voice every man will listen to. But guess what... no Robin because as Bale puts it... "he's not dark enough". The filmmakers' obsession with dark and cool is like a huge anchor that's stopping them from making something really special to me. No, of course throwing a yellow and orange kid into the movie isn't that easy and won't guarantee greatness. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that being close minded to awesome character storylines rather than villains of the month and how they threaten Gotham may result in a good movie, but it's nothing that won't be done time and time again for years to come by other filmmakers with other characters.