The Dark Knight Nolan needs more imagination.

[El Payaso]

Not really. What Batman or pratically anyone else needed was to be inoculated with the antidote for the fear toxin. End of Scarecrow.

That's like saying all Joker needs to be ended is a punchline.

Not really. The Scarecrow bit took about half an hour. All the rest was about Bruce becoming Batman, two slaps of Rachel in Bruce's face and Ra's schemes of destruction.

Well, Crane shows his masks, his gas, his plan, he set Batman afire!!! then finally he's insane with the full Scarecrow suit on and... he was beaten by a girl. Weird way to develope a character freom 100 to 0.

 

[Crooklyn]

The Scarecrow's always been average, a second-rate villain with a somewhat memorable gimmick, but not a whole lot of threat.

He can be a huge threat with the fear gas. And yes, he is considered second-rate, but that's just because there aren't as many good stories featuring him. But when he shines...he shines. The character has tons of potential.

then finally he's insane with the full Scarecrow suit on and... he was beaten by a girl. Weird way to develope a character freom 100 to 0.

Yeah, I gotta agree. I remember watching the trailer with Scarecrow on a fire-breathing horse bit, and I was absolutely psyched to see that in the theater. When it finally came, I braced myself, thinking, "here it goes, sh1t's about to hit the fan!".....and then bam! He's beaten by Rachel.

It wouldn't have bothered me so much if this had happened before, but you don't do a cop-out like that in the f**kin' CLIMAX of the movie. That's just a huge injustice.

 

[Agentsands77]

He can be a huge threat with the fear gas. And yes, he is considered second-rate, but that's just because there aren't as many good stories featuring him.

Nah, it's mostly because the character has never really been interesting beyond his abilities.

But when he shines...he shines.

When do you think the character has "shone" in the comics?

The character has tons of potential.

I'm not so sure. And potential for a few one-off stories here and there is much different than potential for him being one of the greats in the villain pantheon.

It wouldn't have bothered me so much if this had happened before, but you don't do a cop-out like that in the f**kin' CLIMAX of the movie. That's just a huge injustice.

I'll admit it could have been handled a lot better (hell, even if Crane had dodged the taser, continued to come forward, got really intense and threatening, and then Batman had to take him out - that would have been MUCH cooler), but at the end of the day, it doesn't bug me that much.

 

[Crooklyn]

When do you think the character has "shone" in the comics?

Not necessarily the comics, but certainly in BTAS. The stories were watered-down because it was targeted towards kids, but the idea was there. I thought he would've been perfect for BB because they can take advantage of a "year one" Batman through his fears of failing his parents. Constantly attacking Bruce mentally, instead of physically would've been a nice, different take on hero vs. villain.

I'm not so sure. And potential for a few one-off stories here and there is much different than potential for him being one of the greats in the villain pantheon.

I was referring to how he'd be depicted on film. I feel Scarecrow was unnecessarily brushed off in BB. Hopefully he gets his due in the sequel.

 

[Agentsands77]

Not necessarily the comics, but certainly in BTAS.

Really? I always thought he was rather dull in the BTAS, but that's just me. When the animation style was updated, though, he did end up looking hella creepy.

I was referring to how he'd be depicted on film. I feel Scarecrow was unnecessarily brushed off in BB. Hopefully he gets his due in the sequel.

I'm just saying I don't think it's much of a disservice to some "great" character - it's kind of par for the course with how we've seen the Scarecrow thus far.

I do hope we see him in THE DARK KNIGHT, though, and causing a lot more mayhem and trouble than he was in BEGINS (after all, BEGINS was his first day on the job... he should have had ample time to refine his fear weapons now).

 

[El Payaso]

Nah, it's mostly because the character has never really been interesting beyond his abilities.

Like Superman who was considered too campy for a moption picture until Donner came. Never blame people's poor imagination for a character being uninteresting.

Even so, if the character was undeniably uninteresting, why using him for a major picture?

When do you think the character has "shone" in the comics?

I've read a couple of comics where he was good. BB on the other hand was an example of how to degrade a decent character.

I'm not so sure. And potential for a few one-off stories here and there is much different than potential for him being one of the greats in the villain pantheon.

BB could have been one of those stories. I'm not sure if I want him to be a major league villiain as I don't want him to be a pathetic joke.

I'll admit it could have been handled a lot better (hell, even if Crane had dodged the taser, continued to come forward, got really intense and threatening, and then Batman had to take him out - that would have been MUCH cooler), but at the end of the day, it doesn't bug me that much.

Very indulgent. In fact that ending was poor and regrettable for any villiain, Scarecrow or whoever.

 

[batmaluco]

That's like saying all Joker needs to be ended is a punchline.

^That's like saying all Scarecrow needs to be ended is the antidote for his fear toxin.

Well, Crane shows his masks, his gas, his plan, he set Batman afire!!! then finally he's insane with the full Scarecrow suit on and... he was beaten by a girl. Weird way to develope a character freom 100 to 0.

Well, I agree it was a bit of an unexpected and weird way to develope a character but he wasn't expecting that he had the antidote for his toxin.
Maybe now, if he returns, you may see the resentful character that you were waiting for. I mean, after being defeated by a girl with an electric device...^

 

[Agentsands77]

Even so, if the character was undeniably uninteresting, why using him for a major picture?

Because, while he doesn't have much to offer on a large scale, for a secondary role, he works nicely enough.

 

[El Payaso]

Not necessarily the comics, but certainly in BTAS. The stories were watered-down because it was targeted towards kids, but the idea was there. I thought he would've been perfect for BB because they can take advantage of a "year one" Batman through his fears of failing his parents. Constantly attacking Bruce mentally, instead of physically would've been a nice, different take on hero vs. villain.

There he didn't need Ra's to gas Gotham. And exploiting Batman's fears certainly was the most powerful weapon to attack Batman's weak spots. Great example of how it could be easily better.

^That's like saying all Scarecrow needs to be ended is the antidote for his fear toxin.

Exactly. Me being wrong with Joker is the same as you being wrong about Scarecrow at that point.

Well, I agree it was a bit of an unexpected and weird way to develope a character but he wasn't expecting that he had the antidote for his toxin.
Maybe now, if he returns, you may see the resentful character that you were waiting for. I mean, after being defeated by a girl with an electric device...^

If I was him I'd throw my mask away and travel to another country. Too much ambarrassment to be taken seriously by anyone after that.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Ok, been reading this for a while, I think that we can agree that Scarecrow got jipped by his deafeat in BB, in terms of the film building him up, and the impact he had in the comics, his scariness factor went down so much here!

 

[El Payaso]

Because, while he doesn't have much to offer on a large scale, for a secondary role, he works nicely enough.

While you can't think of much for him to offer on a large scale. People like the one of BTAS could though.

 

[Agentsands77]

While you can't think of much for him to offer on a large scale. People like the one of BTAS could though.

As I said before, I don't care much for the BTAS Scarecrow, or his episodes. In fact, I think he has even less effect than the Scarecrow of BEGINS.

Ultimately, I guess I just don't mind the taser moment so much because I don't think it takes that much away from the character. Dramatically it doesn't give him a climactic moment, but I do think he's still pretty threatening, especially when he's armed with fear gas (which he was robbed of in that moment). After the whole Narrows incident, he'd still be a pretty big menace to Gotham City purely because of his fear toxins.

Just because Michael Myers briefly gets stopped a few times by a fairly small girl in HALLOWEEN doesn't make him any less frightening.

 

[El Payaso]

As I said before, I don't care much for the BTAS Scarecrow, or his episodes. In fact, I think he has even less effect than the Scarecrow of BEGINS.

Why?

Well, I sure know you don't care for arguments that prove you wrong.

Ultimately, I guess I just don't mind the taser moment so much because I don't think it takes that much away from the character. Dramatically it doesn't give him a climactic moment, but I do think he's still pretty threatening, especially when he's armed with fear gas (which he was robbed of in that moment). After the whole Narrows incident, he'd still be a pretty big menace to Gotham City purely because of his fear toxins.

That's the problem.

Once a villian is defeated in such a ridiculous way, who can think of him as a serious threat?

 

[Agentsands77]

Why?

Because the BTAS' Crane's/Scarecrow's personality didn't have any of the innate menace that Murphy brought to the role. If anything, the way they portrayed Crane, it made the Scarecrow look like a bigger loser than getting tasered in the face does.

They did take a bold leap forward once they changed the animation style, though, and that was overall probably the most menacing Scarecrow appearance I've seen to date. I rather liked the moment where he "killed" Barbara Gordon in the episode "Over the Edge."

Once a villian is defeated in such a ridiculous way, who can think of him as a serious threat?

:::raises hand:::

If Scarecrow shows up in THE DARK KNIGHT, he's going to be scary then, regardless of getting tasered in the face in BEGINS. At least that's how it goes for me. Especially since his threat isn't at all physical, it's entirely dependent on fear gas, which he was robbed of at that moment.

It's not a good moment, and I have to come out and say that. It's definitely a "what were they thinking?" sort of moment. I just don't think it's a character-ruining moment, while you very clearly do.

 

[El Payaso]

If anything, the way they portrayed Crane, it made the Scarecrow look like a bigger loser than getting tasered in the face does.

How?

 

[Agentsands77]

How?

He's devoid of any menace in appearance or personality. He looks rather goofy, has a terrible voice actor, and lacks anything particularly sinister about his appearance. He loosely reminds me of the bumbling bad guy on the Smurfs show. Even Bruce Timm and Paul Dini knew that their first incarnation of the Scarecrow wasn't particularly frightening (see them talk about the evolution of the animated character here).

 

[batmaluco]

Exactly. Me being wrong with Joker is the same as you being wrong about Scarecrow at that point.

It is not really about right and wrong but the way the character is perceived, different interpretations.
I tend to see The Scarecrow more like a psychological than a physical threat.
You see him as both a psychological and physical threat.
There is no problem at all with that.

 

[El Payaso]

He's devoid of any menace in appearance or personality. He looks rather goofy, has a terrible voice actor, and lacks anything particularly sinister about his appearance. He loosely reminds me of the bumbling bad guy on the Smurfs show. Even Bruce Timm and Paul Dini knew that their first incarnation of the Scarecrow wasn't particularly frightening (see them talk about the evolution of the animated character here).

Then in worst of cases we have 2 lame interpretations. Although the animated one wasn't defeated by a girl but Batman which gives the character a little more dignity.

It is not really about right and wrong but the way the character is perceived, different interpretations.
I tend to see The Scarecrow more like a psychological than a physical threat.
You see him as both a psychological and physical threat.
There is no problem at all with that.

Then if he's going to be psychological threat only, let him be a threat. Not a 'BOOO! Ay... ayy nawwwww ayyyyy,' kind of guy.

 

[batmaluco]

Then if he's going to be psychological threat only, let him be a threat. Not a 'BOOO! Ay... ayy nawwwww ayyyyy,' kind of gay.

Corrected. t:

I kinda liked the way he delivered his "The Bat-Mannnn!" though.

 

[El Payaso]

Hahahhaha. Thanks for correction.

 

[batmaluco]

Mean meaning. t:

 

[zanos]

I didn't say anyone hated it...?

Nolan's BB is a very good, well made movie, just not an outright comicbook movie as many were hoping for apparently--mind you, me saying many is not intended as a blanket statement to mean everyone. A great deal of BB appeal IMO has more to do with the fact that he made (more or less) a "sensible" film, rather than a comicbook movie ala SM or SM:TM. Of course the nods toward the comics help.

I remember when BB came out I was really interested to hear what a couple of long time friends and huge Bat-fans thought about the film. One thing was synonymous: BB was a very good movie, just not what they waited years for. As one friend put it: "After waiting all those years for WB to remake Batman, they gave us a guy in a rubber suit again." Naturally and not unreasonably, many were hoping the latest iteration of Batman would follow the popular comics and TAS.

In a nutshell, I think that's all there really is to it. Fans wanted a comicbook movie. After waiting all those years for a remake and seeing how Raimi was able to successfully bring a comicbook to life and yet still enjoy critical acclaim and financial success, Bat-fans were hoping for the same.

I also find interesting what someone else posted, perhaps you?

Batman is best represented in live-action as realistic. That's an interesting point because the "non-superpowered" nature of Batman almost forces you in the direction of realism. In fact the only way to do a comicbook movie Batman would be lean heavily on stylization to suspend or remove the realistic, which is really no surprise. The problem occurs when the stylization goes overboard an seeps into the campy.

Not really. Making Batman more real actually has the opposite effect. It does not nothing but remind ppl how ridiculous he looks in that rubber "bat" costume trying to fight crime.

Sigh...

I await the day when a noir-ish Batman movie ala TAS or Killing Game comes to theatres.

There's a good chance it'll happen. The only thing that needs to happen is for the WB to sell off their rights to the character.

 

[Agentsands77]

Not really. Making Batman more real actually has the opposite effect. It does not nothing but remind ppl how ridiculous he looks in that rubber "bat" costume trying to fight crime.

Did Donner's SUPERMAN make his Superman look any more ridiculous because he clearly set it in the real world? 'Course not.

Nonsense. It makes him seem that much more extraordinary. In BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS, it's almost like he grew out of the scenery - he seemed like he belonged. In BATMAN BEGINS, he's something remarkable.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

I have to admit, that moment in Batman Begins where Gordon and Batman are talking at the Bat-Signal...for some reason it sometimes makes me laugh. I mean, its a very serious cop talking to a very serious man who's dressed up as a bat. I guess because it's such a sober, "straight" moment that Batman seems to really stand out there for me.

Doesn't happen often, just sometimes I gotta giggle.

 

[Katsuro]

Once a villian is defeated in such a ridiculous way, who can think of him as a serious threat?

You know what, man. Why dont YOU try getting tasered in the face? Then you can call Crane a chump for going out like that.