Official 2007-08 NBA Thread

[Silver Knight]

I'm not worried about the Celtics, Garnett and Pierce played well below average and they still only lost by 6 points.

So did Gasol and Lamar and the Lakers still got the W.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

So did Gasol and Lamar and the Lakers still got the W.

Sasha Vujacic bailed the Lakers out though. If he didn't shoot like he did, the Lakers would be facing elimaination tomorrow night.

 

[Docker2.0]

I believe Donaghy actually. Plus it's no secret that some players get "celebrity calls" and that can be used big time to an advantage. They should just call the game down the middle to get rid of all the rigged theories becuase a lot of them are sounding true.

 

[BlackLantern]

I have a gut feeling that Donaghy is telling the truth and that David Stern is full of ****

 

[Mister J]

Part of Bill Simmons' latest article over at the Worldwide Leader; asking the same questions about KG that everyone else seems to be.:

Q: Is Kevin Garnett on pace to pass Elvin Hayes, Wilt Chamberlain and Karl Malone as the biggest choke artist in the history of the NBA Finals?

A: For the sake of objectivity, this question had to be asked. And it's a fair question. After a smoking-hot first half in Game 1, KG has missed 36 of his past 50 shots -- which would be fine except nearly all of them were either wide-open jumpers or low-post moves with inferior defenders (either Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom or Ronny Turiaf) guarding him. What worried me Tuesday night was KG missed a few and subsequently seemed terrified to shoot, to the point the Lakers just started leaving him open and daring him to take his patented 20-footer like he was Quinn Buckner or something. In the second half, Boston helped him by bringing in Eddie House -- FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I'd add 500 more exclamation points, but it would screw up the HTML for this column) -- to spread the floor, allowing Garnett to post up 10 feet from the basket, then whirl around, face Gasol and beat him off the dribble. Which isn't exactly difficult. Only it wasn't a sure thing in Game 3.

From a historical standpoint, what's fascinating about Garnett's situation is how much it mirrors two other Hall of Fame power forwards who were maligned for crunch-time performances throughout their careers. In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining, only a deep Bullets team prevailed by six with the Big E on the bench. When Malone famously struggled in the '97 and '98 Finals against Jordan and the Bulls, Utah couldn't win either series without the Mailman at his best. As it turned out, the defining moment of his career happened in Game 6 of the '98 Finals, when MJ stripped him of the ball and made the series-winning shot. In Garnett's case, the Celtics are built a little more like the '78 Bullets than the '97 or '98 Jazz because they can win games without getting a big offensive boost from him. And unlike Hayes or Malone, Garnett can contribute mightily just with his defense and rebounding.

On the other hand, didn't we expect a little more from him than that? I covered his crunch-time issues in a column for ESPN The Magazine a few weeks ago, but it's worth mentioning one point again: He gets too worked up for big games to the point that it's almost to his detriment. For instance, it was revealed after the Detroit series that Garnett hadn't slept for four days, a period that started after Game 4 and stretched past Game 6. If that was true, you can only imagine how he's handling the Finals. Like O.J. with Nicole, it's possible that he cares a little too much. And for someone who's supposed to be one of the best 25 or 30 players ever, it's almost incomprehensible that he can't make the Lakers pay for single-covering him with the likes of Gasol. Not to sound like Joe Theismann, but here's a guy with a can't-miss 20-footer, superb footwork on the low post, great passing skills and legitimate athletic advantages over every Laker who will defend him in this series. Is there any reason Garnett shouldn't be averaging 30 a night? I can't think of one ... except for the "Maybe he hasn't slept in a week" thing.

Regardless -- and this happens rarely in sports -- it's turning into one of those plots in which you can see the historical ramifications even as the series is still unfolding: If Garnett doesn't come through under optimal conditions, and the Celtics blow this series because of him, that goes in the first paragraph of his NBA tombstone. If they win the series despite his offensive struggles, that also goes on his NBA tombstone, only it will be buried halfway down (kind of like the '78 Finals with Elvin Hayes). Either way, there isn't a more fascinating character in the 2008 Finals with the exception of Kobe, who might end up killing Lamar Odom with his bare hands if the Lakers lose this series.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080611
Some other good stuff is in there too; Pierce's injury, Mamba the Teammate, a few shots at the officiating and a brief mention of Sam I Ain't being 'The Mole'.

 

[Mister J]

I have a gut feeling that Donaghy is telling the truth and that David Stern is full of ****

Then it shouldn't be that difficult find other referees and/or some information to substantiate Donaghy's claims.

 

[BlackLantern]

Then it shouldn't be that difficult find other referees and/or some information to substantiate Donaghy's claims.

Those other refs could have been spoken to by the NBA already or are worried about their employment...I don't believe in a vast conspiracy but I do think the NBA will capitalize on something if the opportunity presents itself....I haven't seen the ratings for the Finals yet, but I'd guess they are lot higher than if San Antonio or Detroit were in the Finals...

 

[Docker2.0]

Then it shouldn't be that difficult find other referees and/or some information to substantiate Donaghy's claims.

It actually isnt. Just look at that Kings game and also that Portland-Lakers game where LA came from 25 down in 6 minutes with ALOT of phantom and missed calls. I honestly don't think Stern was involved, but a few owners, refs, and players and you got a recipe for fixed!

 

[Mister J]

Those other refs could have been spoken to by the NBA already or are worried about their employment...I don't believe in a vast conspiracy but I do think the NBA will capitalize on something if the opportunity presents itself....I haven't seen the ratings for the Finals yet, but I'd guess they are lot higher than if San Antonio or Detroit were in the Finals...

We could spin a number of scenarios in that regard. Criminals aren't the smartest people around or the most loyal. If Donaghy is holding the smoking gun, it shouldn't take too many of the right questions being asked from the Feds to get something more than rampant speculation based on circumstance.

He's called specific attention to two playoffs games in particular; games where the officiating crew is easily identified. IIRC, Donaghy first mentioned others were involved last July and we don't know anything concrete yet? I doubt the FBI has just sat on that info. Wouldn't there be something outside of his allegations?

It actually isnt. Just look at that Kings game and also that Portland-Lakers game where LA came from 25 down in 6 minutes with ALOT of phantom and missed calls. I honestly don't think Stern was involved, but a few owners, refs, and players and you got a recipe for fixed!

You could look at any poorly officiated game and say the same thing. It's not proof of anything except shoddiness. When I say substantiation, I mean more names, more admissions, someone looking to broker for amnesty, anything. Again, too many people would need be involved in something like that to keep it on the hush, especially if one of them is now facing prison time with a continued investigation looming.

 

[Ghostvirus]

So Vinny D is the New Coach of the Da Bulls. Terry Porter is in Pheonix, & Michael Curry is in Da Motor City. So did everybody forget about Avery? Or am I missing something?

 

[Docker2.0]

Then explain to me celebrity calls. If kobe chops someone head off its not called. But if Fischer makes the same foul, it's called. Please explain it.

 

[Docker2.0]

FYI.....ESPN's Hot List is now reporting conflicting reports from the NBA and personel. Stern states that they talked to everyone and found no wrongdoings. Referee Delaney(who was one of the refs who called the Kings/Lakers game)said NOONE talked to him yet. It's on Hot List right now.

 

[Mister J]

So Vinny D is the New Coach of the Da Bulls. Terry Porter is in Pheonix, & Michael Curry is in Da Motor City. So did everybody forget about Avery? Or am I missing something?

About Vinny D: Literally, I've yet to see one article praising (or even comprehending this move). Dude has no coaching experience at all. What gives?

Detroit went from within; can't really criticize that. However, I don't really get what Phoenix is doing. Avery brought that good halfcourt execution and defense to Dallas. It seems to me that Phoenix would need that same juice. Why not get it from a proven guy who knows all about the West?

Then explain to me celebrity calls. If kobe chops someone head off its not called. But if Fischer makes the same foul, it's called. Please explain it.

Come on, Docker. That's hyperbole and you know it. 'Superstar calls' applicable to guy getting away with an extra step, a hold or something like that are hardly new; that's been there before any of us was even watching the game. You don't think Magic, Larry, Michael, Barkley, Malone, etc., 'got away with stuff'? You could probably find some people attesting to Wilt, Russell and Oscar getting the same treatment.

I look at that stuff as refs being influenced by a player's reputation; you expect (maybe even anticipate) certain guys making plays. I don't really give it any more attention than being a subconscious reaction. That doesn't always make it the right call, but citing it as intentional?; that's a reach to me. Is there one instance of a ref who isn't facing prison time just admitting that they simply gave calls away? Even if it wasn't influenced by the league, but just on their own bias?

Beyond that, it's hardly limited to the NBA. You mean to tell me you've never heard of someone complaining that certain pitchers get more called strikes, batters who receive larger strike zones, wide receivers get are allowed a bit more pushing off, cornerbacks who are allowed to be more physical and the like? I could rattle off a number of star players, irrespective of sport, who fit those descriptions and I'm fairly certain you could too.

 

[Mister J]

FYI.....ESPN's Hot List is now reporting conflicting reports from the NBA and personel. Stern states that they talked to everyone and found no wrongdoings. Referee Delaney(who was one of the refs who called the Kings/Lakers game)said NOONE talked to him yet. It's on Hot List right now.

Delaney also said this about Donaghy:

"This is not the first time a known or convicted criminal has lied about me before the judicial system. I have an extensive law enforcement background, and still train police officers. I have dealt with criminals and informants, and I know full well they are capable of doing and saying anything. I cannot comment any further without permission from the NBA."

 

[Docker2.0]

I'm not stretching and you are right, it has been around for along time but it only backs up dude's claim. When the Lakers played Philly in the finals and Shaq was throwing bows at Mutombo but Mutombo was called for the foul you can't help but think conspiracy. No other sport has the word and a cloud surrounding it like the NBA. Superstar calls shouldn't exist becuase it does come into question about integrity. But for Stern to COMPLETELY blow off dude's claim without any investigation shows he has something to hide. Samething with the NFL and spygate. WTF would you destroy all the evidence showing a team cheating and not show it to the public cuase the case has been closed if you didn't have something to hide. Then give them a pat on the wrist by taking away a 1st round draft pick, when they had another pick via trade?! Samething here! If you have nothing to hide, then don't blow it off like nothing happened.

 

[Docker2.0]

But.......him working in law enforcement has nothing to do with if he's involved or not. ESPN talked to both he and Stern and they have conflicted testimony. That shows you right there that something is going on and someone is lying. You can't possibly dismiss this as a coincedence.

 

[Mister J]

You're right, superstar calls shouldn't exist. However, unless there's some way of identifying them as intentional exercises, as opposed to subconscious efforts, I don't know how you guard against that in the NBA, NFL, MLB or any other scenario where human judgment is involved.

How has the league completely blown off the claims, when they're working alongside the FBI in furthering their investigation? I'm pretty sure the Feds are calling the shots on how this progresses at this stage, like when the league wanted to fire Donaghy in July and they told them to hold off.

I agree on the Spygate deal. I don't get why the tapes were destroyed before anyone else got a look. It doesn't project a very sound image.

My point in posting that quote wasn't to get at that Delaney is in law enforcement. It was to point out that he called Donaghy a lying criminal. There's no testimony involved. The disconnect is that Stern said the Justice Department had fully investigated Donaghy's claims and Delaney saying no one has talked to him. That's inquiring into the particulars of the JD's investigation and I doubt we get any light shed on that until after the sentencing next month.

 

[Ben Urich]

From FanHouse:

lofl.

 

[Mister J]

Vinny's hair is pretty spiffy.

0-0 Career Record.

 

[Excel]

From FanHouse:

lofl.

Hahahaha

 

[omid17]

From FanHouse:

lofl.

Vinny's hair is pretty spiffy.

0-0 Career Record.

lmao

 

[MoPlaYa]

Celtics winning this series 4-2

 

[LastSunrise1981]

I think we're going to see a game that goes down to the wire tonight. Boston will no doubt be looking to bounce back from the loss of Game 3 and look to regain some sort of rhythm. In order for Boston to succeed tonight they need to go back to the formula that helped them gain victories in Games 1 and 2.

Garnett needs to drive to the rim as Gasol, Odom, or anyone of the Laker roster cannot stop him when he's that close. When the jump shot isn't falling it's time to drive to the hoop.

Guarding Kobe is another thing they need to continue doing. But let's face it, you're not going to shut Kobe down, the only thing they can do is slow him down in transition and try to limit his passing opportunities. Force someone else to beat you, don't let Kobe do some of his late game heroics that way bandwagon fans and dumb analysts could compare him to Michael Jordan.

Throwing different defenders at him helped before. Have Perkins guard him, then Powe guard him, then Pierce, and Allen. Throwing different defenders at him destroys his rhythm and it's the best way to slow him down.

 

[Docker2.0]

Wow! 2 noncalls! Here comes the refs stealing the scene! Conspiracy theorists are going to eat this up! I just finished playing ball and their seems to be a lot of them! Myself included!

 

[Excel]

oh my god, this is ugly....we are missing LAY UPS.