Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - - Part 15

[Mee]

Oh, my bad Meeford. Is the internet not enjoying Endgame?



I have a feeling that whenever we got a slight backstory for Joker, it wouldn't be well received. Most people would be content having him stay a mysterious clown. I dislike mysteries, so I'm just happy to have an explanation.

Yeah I can't speak for the internet but I feel the opposite about Joker. I prefer the unknown. The multiple choice backstory themes from Killing Joke or TDK, that's enough for me. Vague hints and clues but never a concrete origin. Making him immortal is the same as making Batman immortal, it takes away from part of what makes the character great.

As I understand it though the immortal thing might turn out to all be a trick? I dropped Snyder's run a while ago, picked up the first issue of Endgame but still wasn't into it.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

His mortality is tied to his greatness in your opinion? I think he'll continue to show up every few months after escaping from Arkham, make a bunch of Gotham residents cackle uncontrollably, maybe kidnap somebody and torment Batman like he's done for the past 40 years.

 

[Mee]

His mortality is tied to his greatness in your opinion? I think he'll continue to show up every few months after escaping from Arkham, make a bunch of Gotham residents cackle uncontrollably, maybe kidnap somebody and torment Batman like he's done for the past 40 years.

I mean, all comic characters are essentially immortal in that they never really age. That said, the fact that Joker is just a twisted human, a guy who had "one bad day," that's essential to his character, yeah. Making him some immortal being of evil takes away from that. It's much scarier that he's just a human being that's capable of all the crazy twisted things he's done than for him to be some kind of demon or whatever. Just like the appeal of Batman is that he's just a human at full potential, not super powered. Joker is humanity's full potential for evil.

:nerd alert:

Wasn't there a Spider-Man retcon that made him be chosen to get spider powers by a totem or something? That's what this feels like. It's pointless and dumb and takes away the random chance from the story.

 

[antsman41]

Batman characters are great because they are human at the core, with psychological issues, sometimes scientific deformities/et cetera... But deep down flesh and blood.

Damian having powers, Joker being a mystical immortal demon thing, and other shot DC has been doing is dumb.

Batman shouldn't be taking weekend trips to fight Darkseid. Clayface, Mr. Freeze, Phospherous or fine and dandy... But leave the hugely fantastical villains and elements out of it.

 

[-Arya-]

Why shouldn't he fight enemies with fantastical elements? Bane with his Venom injections, Mr. Freeze with his gun, Ra's Al Ghul with the Lazarus Pit, Clayface with his shape-shifting all add something exciting to the mythos. Batman shouldn't just be relegated to fighting human enemies. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I think this angle with The Joker adds some new exciting twists to the character.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Why shouldn't he fight enemies with fantastical elements? Bane with his Venom injections, Mr. Freeze with his gun, Ra's Al Ghul with the Lazarus Pit, Clayface with his shape-shifting all add something exciting to the mythos. Batman shouldn't just be relegated to fighting human enemies. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I think this angle with The Joker adds some new exciting twists to the character.

Agreed. His trip to Apokolips to get Damian's body is what got me reading Batbooks again; I'd bailed after Death of the Family. I always had a hard time with the really grounded in "reality" Batman stories b/c he gets back from space fighting with the Justice League and I'm supposed to believe he's having trouble fighting a guy who tells riddles? Nope.

 

[antsman41]

Clayface, Freeze, etc are fine... read everything. Ra's as well, because they we're established and built within the Batworld using science and so forth.

Apokolips is stupid for Batman. Batman should not involve space travel, especially with 'portal doors'. That was dumb, hell the whole bat-team went there without helmets or anything... it's fine in a JLA book or some random GN or another universe but not in the standard Batworld. It just doesn't seem natural to Batman. If he has portals, time travel, where does it end? Lazarus Pits are alright I guess when it's mainly Ra's... I like knowing Batman has limits and restrictions, it keeps it interesting.

If I wanted to read comics with super-super powers, I would read something from the other 90% that is available from Marvel/DC/et cetera.

I'm not close minded, I just want what is established followed-through naturally. It's cool seeing a gritty noir character get spiced up with a Freeze or Man-Bat because they feel like extensions of Batman's already noir world, just with a splash of sic-fi. But, Darkseid has no ties what so ever to something established in Gotham or what-have-you. He's more than cool for Superman...

Deep down, I honestly have never liked Batman involved with Superman or Wonder Woman. I sort of wish there was a JLA that only involved Batman and Green Arrow's respective families kicking ass left and right. Well, I did basically get that with Batman INC.

Don't take this as me judging other heroes and comics, as I've stated earlier... I've been open to CA and the Marvel world more than ever because of the MCU and not liking Batman books anymore. It's just I prefer gritty noir with a touch of sic-fi separately from hardcore super magic power stuff.

And, honestly that's why I love anything Brubaker/Phillips do. Each of there series are fun, gritty, and have a touch of science spliced in. The whole mystical aspect of Fatale never made me frustrated because it was written expertly within the noir world Ed built. New 52-what ever you call it now, never gets this right because on week Batman is dark and full of drama, the next he's taking portals to Apokolips, then back to solving gruesome murders. It doesn't meld/jive... sort of like how 'Gotham' the tv show seems to random and all over the map, it doesn't know what it wants to be.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Anyone who says that Batman shouldn't be doing this and that has a very limited and dogmatic grasp of the character's history and appeal. Nor do I think they understand the irony of Batman being human in story, but not in any way resembling anything human.

 

[antsman41]

I love TDK to '66 to Brubaker to Morrison to B&TB to BTAS, but it's one thing to act like Gotham/New 52 and another to keep to your 'world'.

So, you're cool with Joker being an immortal demon thing... Batman hitching sonic boom planet portals... and Damian flying?

What's next in this current **** universe; Bruce Wayne inherits bat eyes... Catwoman can bend through locks and door crevices [think Tooms from X-Files]...? As I said, elseworlds/GNs like Gotham By Gaslight are neat and interesting but to bend and mold one solid universe so much and in so many different and chaotic ways makes no sense and is gross.

Damian and Jason being resurrected is sort of fine [wish one never died and the other stayed dead or just almost died and still became Red Hood] since Ra's was clearly established in this world, but giving Damian Superman-like powers is absurd.

 

[Saint]

My favorite era of the bat books will always be the late 80's and early 90's Detective/Batman days where the likes of Alan Grant, Dough Moench, Marv Wolfman and Chuck Dixon were regularly writing those 2 books and later on the additional Legends and Shadow titles.

That New Gotham era back in the early 00's was pretty righteous though I'd agree with that. Only bat family book era I really liked since then was the Batman Reborn/Batman Inc one from 2009 - 2011. Until now at least. After a rocky 3 and 1/2 years of inconsistent quality across the line the ship was righted yet again with the current line up. Thank You Mark Doyle.

The entire Grant Morrison run was so up my alley it's ridiculous. The incredible thing about it is how it blended the various interpretations of Batman so carefully as to appear seamless. It went from crime stories to time travel, ghosts and cosmic gods effortlessly. I only wish that Morrison had been able to finish his work before the New 52 arrived; I think Batman Incorporated would have made an incredible "final" Post-Crisis Batman story.

Yeah I can't speak for the internet but I feel the opposite about Joker. I prefer the unknown. The multiple choice backstory themes from Killing Joke or TDK, that's enough for me. Vague hints and clues but never a concrete origin. Making him immortal is the same as making Batman immortal, it takes away from part of what makes the character great.

Generally, I am inclined to agree--but as you point out, it's not clear at this point what Snyder actually intends. My guess is that he will leave it inconclusive (as he did with Thomas Wayne Jr.), and that eventually some other writer will roll it back.

Personally, I'm less interested in what Snyder has to say about the Joker than I am in seeing him revisit Thomas Wayne Jr., incidentally.

Anyone who says that Batman shouldn't be doing this and that has a very limited and dogmatic grasp of the character's history and appeal.

I feel this is an important point. Though I have no problem with individuals who only appreciate a narrow range of batman material, it remains narrow. Science fiction is not a small part of Batman's history; quite the opposite.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I love TDK to '66 to Brubaker to Morrison to B&TB to BTAS, but it's one thing to act like Gotham/New 52 and another to keep to your 'world'.

It's cool to say, "I'm not dogmatic, really", but you're statements speak otherwise.

So, you're cool with Joker being an immortal demon thing... Batman hitching sonic boom planet portals... and Damian flying?

Sure, why not. Batman has been through so much stuff over the years, it's nothing radical.

What's next in this current **** universe; Bruce Wayne inherits bat eyes... Catwoman can bend through locks and door crevices [think Tooms from X-Files]...? As I said, elseworlds/GNs like Gotham By Gaslight are neat and interesting but to bend and mold one solid universe so much and in so many different and chaotic ways makes no sense and is gross.

Damian and Jason being resurrected is sort of fine [wish one never died and the other stayed dead or just almost died and still became Red Hood] since Ra's was clearly established in this world, but giving Damian Superman-like powers is absurd.

Then don't read the books that involve these things, I guess? With as much Batman material, there's bound to be something that jives with your interpretation of the character. It's pretty selfish, really, to say that people who may enjoy these takes on the character shouldn't have them because you think molding them into a continuity that doesn't really exist anyway is "gross."

 

[Saint]

Incidentally, if you think Damian is keeping those superpowers, you're kidding yourself. In the interim, I see no problem with the story. I applaud Batman & Robin for being the only Batbook on the shelf to keep the tone and themes of Morrison's Batman alive.

 

[antsman41]

Then don't have Snyder writing Batman like he is, or never allow cross-overs... because if crossovers are still on the table with DC, they might as well go all the way and have Bruce become Super-Bat, Dick become inherit Krypton Nightwing Powers, and Alfred be a pre-cog, and Jim Gordon have muscles like the Rock. Go full camp or keep the camp separated...

I'm fine in keeping to a title or two if they're each the same week to week or super different week to week but having Batman & Robin be pretty Dini-esque with a hint of Loeb is fine and dandy but then having Frankenstein join the team for a few weeks and then a galactic journey to Darkseid is trash. Either do that outright, or not. It doesn't jive...

 

[Tron Bonne]

Then don't have Snyder writing Batman like he is, or never allow cross-overs... because if crossovers are still on the table with DC, they might as well go all the way and have Bruce become Super-Bat, Dick become inherit Krypton Nightwing Powers, and Alfred be a pre-cog, and Jim Gordon have muscles like the Rock. Go full camp or keep the camp separated...

I'm fine in keeping to a title or two if they're each the same week to week or super different week to week but having Batman & Robin be pretty Dini-esque with a hint of Loeb is fine and dandy but then having Frankenstein join the team for a few weeks and then a galactic journey to Darkseid is trash. Either do that outright, or not. It doesn't jive...

It only doesn't jive under the eyes of the dogmatic. There are not only two extremes, nor have their ever been.

 

[antsman41]

Incidentally, if you think Damian is keeping those superpowers, you're kidding yourself. In the interim, I see no problem with the story. I applaud Batman & Robin for being the only Batbook on the shelf to keep the tone and themes of Morrison's Batman alive.

I don't... but, it doesn't lend itself to benefiting anything in the interim.

 

[Naked Shia]

batman has always been about fighting crime, be it against thugs, or mystical creatures. Very soon in his carreer he was fighting vampires and monsters. Joker being immortal is not more dumb than Ra's being immortal.

 

[Mani-Man]

The one thing that makes the joker this unique and special in all comics, is that he is so mysterious.

Giving him a "clear" origin or anything, he loses this.
He needs to be a character that is unclear, we need to second guess if and how he survives things, what he plans and what his next move is in every arc.

 

[Naked Shia]

I prefer him not to have a clear origins as well. But Snyder didn't give him one anyway. I'm far from being the biggest snyder's fan, but he can't be accused of doing that. So far, he left everything about the joker ambiguous, and I'm sure endgame's ending won't be different.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

The one thing that makes the joker this unique and special in all comics, is that he is so mysterious.

Giving him a "clear" origin or anything, he loses this.
He needs to be a character that is unclear, we need to second guess if and how he survives things, what he plans and what his next move is in every arc.

How long can that go on? Eventually, somebody was bound to offer up an explanation. Joker's survivability and Arkham's paper thin security was bordering on Coyote/Road Runner levels of ridiculousness to me. In 100 years, if comic books are still going strong, they can't possibly still be telling these same stories.

 

[Naked Shia]

How long can that go on? Eventually, somebody was bound to offer up an explanation. Joker's survivability and Arkham's paper thin security was bordering on Coyote/Road Runner levels of ridiculousness to me. In 100 years, if comic books are still going strong, they can't possibly still be telling these same stories.

why not? They have done so for the last 75 years and it worked. I'm not against change, and I'm not against this immortal joker idea, but I disagree about your point.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

The "if it ain't broke" approach will never lead to any improvements. Just different ways of telling the same stories.

 

[Naked Shia]

I agree: both ways can work. Joker surviving anything is part of his charm, regardless of wether he's immortal or not imo.

 

[antsman41]

Why the **** does Snyder have it out so bad for Alfred?

Seriously pissed off, that was disgusting and ********. Batman #39 might be the worst book I've ever read...

 

[Naked Shia]

I've been trying to not criticize Snyder as much as I did in the past lately. But endgame seriously reads like bad fan-fiction with terrible characterization all around. it's the very definition of shock value. it reminds me of Saint Row 3, where they killed Johnny Gat because "people thought we couldn't do that, so we did".

 

[Snow Queen]

So, what does Snyder hate more: Alfred or horses?