Official Justice League Status Update Thread

[The Guard]

Batman had a hard time against dogs.

Can you see this same Batman fighting aliens, sorcerers and supervillains?

Depends on the context, frankly. Give me a scenario, and yes, I and I'm sure many others can make it work in context with Nolan's Batman. Fairly easily. Batman's skill levels haven't exactly been consistent in the films. Writers have done a pretty lousy job in having him do or consider anything but what the story requires. I.E, he was fine against well trained ninjas in BEGINS, but struggled against dogs and The Joker's toughs and The Joker's knife foot thing in THE DARK KNIGHT.

There's always going to be a bit of writers altering what he's actually doing, regardless of what he's capable of, in order to create a decent amount of drama. You'll have that it in any film. It's just the nature of creating drama.

I haven't been enamored with Loeb's work since...everything after THE LONG HALLOWEEN and DARK VICTORY. He almost forgot how to write. His habit of injecting stories with cameo after cameo has become old hat since then, and not nearly as well executed. He gets the characters, but he limits himself to what he already knows about them in most respects. And I've heard stories that his son's death had something to do with that, but still...

However, despite all the skills Batman has learned, it's still not going to do diddly against a woman like Powergirl, who can move fast enough to knock out Batman, fly him to a jail and tie him up in a pretty pink bowtie, and be back to the fight with Superman before Batman could blink, or someone like Green Lantern who could immobilize Bats with a thought from a long distance away.

I don't remember the particular splash pages, or the details of the combats, but I do remember that the heroes who went after Superman and Batman were pulling their punches and trying not to hurt them. At least at first.

It's kind of a moot point, though. Just because a character CAN do something doesn't mean writers should make them do it. Sometimes, to get the right amount of drama and intrigue, you do have to lessen the impact of certain concepts.

Or, if you're Jeph Loeb, you just write a melee battle scene.

And your mention of his skills brings up another point that has always bugged me. I find it extremely annoying when writers start listing that Batman has mastered 100+ fighting techniques, is a olympian-level gymnast, and yet can still somehow bench 500 plus pounds, all the while having a super-genius intellect. I mean, for the love of pete, I thought he wasn't supposed to have powers? That right there is more super than half of the actual super-heroes out there! Not to mention just as implausible. I'm all for Batman being skilled, but don't tell me a guy can maintain the flexibility of an olympian gymnast and still bench 500 to 600 pounds. It's not physically possible.

Sure it's implausible. So your issue now is that comic book Batman is Batman?

The entire point of the comic book incarnation of the character is that he has achieved well beyond what the normal can, without the aid of metahuman abilities.

I don't think a movie version needs to have 127 fighting styles, and I'll elaborate on that in a moment.

But what really bugs me is that it makes him too powerful. I don't want a Batman to be so suped up that he seems more powerful than some of the actual meta-humans out there. Let him rely on his intellect and creativity to win the fights, don't start giving him superhuman abilities (because that's basically what they're doing when they start giving him all those skills).

There's a huge difference between a high level of skill and outright superpowers, though.

Oh come on now. Even at his lowest power level a kick from Batman shouldn't even give the Hulk pause. However, I do certainly hope that you're right that we won't see the kind of scenarios I'm describing. And I think you're probably right, given how the Batman of the movies has never been shown to do some of the more implausible things the Batman in the comics does.

It depends, I guess. I don't know the density of the Hulk's stomach when he isn't flexing. It seems to me that someone messed with the physics of the Hulk in that instance.

Back to what I said about the 127 fighting styles. I'm pretty sure you won't be seeing that type of outlandish scenario anyway. If only because, given modern comic book trends, you won't be seeing the hyper levels of power from other supervillains. Modern comic book movies have tended to tone things down a bit.

I imagine a JLA movie would involve an planet-wide threat with a few billion people at stake. Just juxtaposing that conflict with what was in TDK and you can see why the two worlds wouldn't go together.

I fail to see how two thousand people being threatened in one instance in TDK suggests that in another instance, more lives couldn't be at stake.

Heh.

SHIP'S CAPTAIN: How long do we have before you blow up the boats?
THE JOKER: Until Midnight.
SHIP'S CAPTAIN: That gives us fifteen minutes. Everyone into the lifeboats!

 

[The Guard]

From the Wonder Woman thread:

You know, I don't even want to talk about that horrible Justice League of Australia movie that even the WB was smart enough to walk away from. Gale was being discussed in relation to WW, I made some comments about her, then some Miller JL defenders came in here talking about that cancelled project. This is the WW thread and I think we should stick with that. I'm making this last post in response to the JL comments, then I'm just walking away from that sidetracking discussion to go back to WW.

Tell you what, we'll take it to the JLA movie thread after this.

Poor resumes was only part of it. Miller's JLM was a project so terrible it sucked on multiple levels. It was the lack of experience, combined with miscast looks.

See, I see nothing concrete to tell me that it's terrible. You just seem to assume it was.

Miscast looks? Based on what, exactly? The fact that they don't look exactly like their comic book counterpart? That pretty much makes about 50-75 percent of modern comic book casting invalid, doesn't it?

Do you ever hear ANY actress talking about acting lessons when she's supposed to be shooting. There's researching your role, and then there's lessons on the job that you should already be good at if you're supposed to be headlining a major blockbuster.

I hear actors and actresses talking about all kinds of things. Have I heard any talking about acting lessons recently? No, but that doesn't mean they don't.

You have this stubborn idea in your head that because she was glad she had more time to hone her craft, for whatever reason, that it means she couldn't act, period. I fail to see the logic there. You're inventing the reasons she said things.

Furthermore, Gale was happy to get more time for lessons when her movie had just been derailed by an industry-consuming strike. That represented a major setback that ultimately led to the movie's cancellation. Other actresses would have been disappointed. Gale's attitude was not professional at all, and said a lot about her confidence in her own acting skills.

You really think she wasn't disappointed that the movie was pushed back, pushed back, and then shelved? Don't be ridiculous. What do you want her to do? Cry about it to interviewers?

Her attitude, her few statements, told you what you wanted to hear when you twisted her words. It told the rest of the world "I want to be Wonder Woman, I'm glad I have time for some more acting lessons". She found a silver lining in the strike.

He could shave the beard and still look like a punk. He didn't fit Superman at all. And they're supposed to be wasting money on effects to make this guy look bigger than he is when presumably the whole point in even casting him was to go cheap?

He looks pretty decent without the beard, actually. Does he look just like comic book Superman? No, but obviously that's not what Miller/WB wanted. They were apparently going for something a bit more exotic.

What do his size and his cheapness have to do with each other, exactly?

Ever stop to think that maybe he just NAILED the role in a lot of people's minds, despite the fact that he doesn't look exactly like the comic book Superman?

That's exactly what they would have been doing by putting out different version of Batman while confusingly piggybacking off of BB's story. It would have been financial suicide.

I see.

Based on what?

What, you think Bale would have quit because there's another Batman out there?

Yes. He was okay in the clips I saw, but nothing special. Mostly the same type of role on a bunch of undemanding soaps: smug preppie guy. His voice is deeper than I expected, but sounds off (although I've seen other clips of him doing a Southern accent). He still looks like a baby-faced preppie college kid, which is what he was at 22 years old.

"Baby faced preppie college kid".

You mean an "attractive young man"?

An unexpected swerve (because your villain looks like a total wuss) does not justify Jay Baruchel. Can you imagine the final showdown between him and the world's greatest heroes? It would have been pathetic

What do you think there was going to be, a fist fight between them?

Routh had been getting TV guest roles for years before SR, and was on a soap for a year. Which is far more than Gale has done, so don't even try to compare them. You didn't hear Brandon talking about acting lessons during the shoot.

I'm talking about the fact that he too, began as a model. A lot of actors did.

You can compare anything. It's a valid point.

BTW, did you watch any of Brandon Routh's "acting" prior to SUPERMAN RETURNS? He wasn't anything special there, either. And he made do with SUPERMAN RETURNS.

If they cared about their movie they would have. When the **** hit the fan and everyone on the net was laughing at their cast, they could have had Miller or an executive make a statement of confidence. Or made some fan-pleasing leaks, the way all these movies do. There was nothing but silence. Then the movie was delayed, then it was cancelled.

I'm not interested in what they SHOULD have done, in your perfect world.

I asked you a very specific question: When has WB ever "calmed the public's fears".

I.E, why would they suddenly have begun to do so during a project they obviously wanted kept secret?

I like how you think all these comic book movies "leak" their material before production ever begins. I've rarely seen that on any level.

It ought to. But when the cast looks RIDICULOUS, and one of them comes out and admits she's still learning to act, what are we supposed to think? Being a pro also means Miller is pressured by the corporate suits. We know that he had incentive to make the movie cheap, and to go for that Australian tax break.

You're "supposed" to weigh the evidence. We have very little evidence to go on. Therefore, you're "supposed" to think "Hmm, I wonder what's going on". What you're not "supposed" to do is make huge assumptions about a project and leap after leap in logic until you're in a tizzy.

Obviously you just made up your mind based on some photos and your own thoughts about what the project should have been, without having seen screentests, actors in costume, etc.

That's fine. It doesn't make your assessment of the actual project make any more sense, though.

You tried to talk Gale up and say that there were cheaper girls they could have gotten. I responded by stating the facts that she is nobody in America or in the acting industry (while wanting to break in), meaning she could be had for less money than a known actress.

No, I tried to speak in context. I'm not talking anyone up.

So you would have Jay Baruchel's skinny, boyish, funny looking face running around in the climax opposing Superman and Batman? That's crap.

No. As I have already pointed out, it's not the route I would have gone.

But neither do I think Maxwell Lord was going to be "running around in the climax, opposting Superman and Batman", whatever that means.

I don't know the details of how he was written, so I don't pretend to.

But I do know this. In the comics, Maxwell Lord was designed as a more cerebral villain, per the script. And in the comics he had telepathic abilities. He didn't really NEED a physical presence. He used others for that. So I very much doubt Jay Baruchel would have been a physical villain. There were OMACS and Superman himself for that in this project, from what we knew.

 

[solidsnake86]

I think its really hard to say justice league was going to suck. Besides the actors, they pretty much had a top notch crew working on it. I think it has to do more with the alleged story connecting it to begins and returns but not keeping the actors. Obviously they wanted this film as a spring board for solo film. For example, if you wanted to use wally in a solo series, this film really would have benefited the character by having barry killed off.

WB changed there plan, and the dark knight made way to much money to ignore.

 

[Evil Twin]

Of all the actors involved with the JLA project, I think Baruchel got the rawest deal from the internet. The guy is a good actor. He doesn't play the same guy in every movie. He's something like the 4th lead in Million Dollar Baby, a best picture winner.

He might not be the spitting image of the comic book Maxwell Lord, if he even was going to be Lord, but I have little doubt that Baruchel has the range to play an evil businessman. He's a solid professional.

 

[The Guard]

I think its really hard to say justice league was going to suck. Besides the actors, they pretty much had a top notch crew working on it.

Exactly. I just don't understand the mindset that with all that talent, WB was just going to shoot themselves in the foot with a cast of horrible actors who didn't work in their respective roles. I just don't buy it. I buy that there were probably some at WB who weren't thrilled with a cast of no name actors in such a high profile project (the same happened with SUPERMAN RETURNS), and I buy that there were budget issues, strike issues, and probably some in WB didn't want the movie connected to existing films (that's bound to happen). I just don't buy that Miller and the studio as a whole, worked so hard on so many facets of JLA and then "forgot" to worry about proper casting.

And as far as the unknowns go, it's pretty obvious what WB was doing. They were trying to secure younger, semi-established actors to long term deals for a potential franchise at a fraction of the regular cost. Which, from a business standpoint, is pretty damn smart.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I haven't been enamored with Loeb's work since...everything after THE LONG HALLOWEEN and DARK VICTORY. He almost forgot how to write. His habit of injecting stories with cameo after cameo has become old hat since then, and not nearly as well executed. He gets the characters, but he limits himself to what he already knows about them in most respects. And I've heard stories that his son's death had something to do with that, but still...



I don't remember the particular splash pages, or the details of the combats, but I do remember that the heroes who went after Superman and Batman were pulling their punches and trying not to hurt them. At least at first.

It's kind of a moot point, though. Just because a character CAN do something doesn't mean writers should make them do it. Sometimes, to get the right amount of drama and intrigue, you do have to lessen the impact of certain concepts.

Or, if you're Jeph Loeb, you just write a melee battle scene.

I think that's more or less what it came down to. He just wanted a "cool" battle scene. So he added about fifteen Superheroes and Supervillains for Bats and Supes to go up against.

Sure it's implausible. So your issue now is that comic book Batman is Batman?

The entire point of the comic book incarnation of the character is that he has achieved well beyond what the normal can, without the aid of metahuman abilities.

I don't think a movie version needs to have 127 fighting styles, and I'll elaborate on that in a moment.

There's a huge difference between a high level of skill and outright superpowers, though.

No, my issue is more or less that writers feel the need to give Batman an unnecessary amount of abilities to make him seem more impressive. See, I don't mind it when they have Batman do more than a normal human could. We all know that, in real life, a man couldn't become a master martial arts fighter, become a world class gymnast, escape artist, and a brilliant scientist. There just isn't enough time to do all those.

But when you start saying that, not only is he a master fighter, he's mastered oer 100 different styles of fighting, on top of everything...I just feel it's too much. What's wrong with just having him be a great fighter? Someone who, like many fighters in the UFC, haven't taken the time to master every single form out there, but mix and mash aspects of it to get a style that works for them?

And why does Batman need to bench 800lbs? Bruce Lee couldn't bench 800lbs, but the dude was still dangerous.

It just kind of feels like needless additions to me. And you're right, I highly doubt they will give him that power-level. Its just something that has bothered me.

It depends, I guess. I don't know the density of the Hulk's stomach when he isn't flexing. It seems to me that someone messed with the physics of the Hulk in that instance.

Basically, yeah. What it comes down to is Batman was a much more popular character, and DC isn't going to let Batman lose to the Hulk. Now, I wouldn't have minded him beating the Hulk, but they should have done it in a better written way.

 

[The Guard]

No, my issue is more or less that writers feel the need to give Batman an unnecessary amount of abilities to make him seem more impressive. See, I don't mind it when they have Batman do more than a normal human could. We all know that, in real life, a man couldn't become a master martial arts fighter, become a world class gymnast, escape artist, and a brilliant scientist. There just isn't enough time to do all those.

I hear you, and it's one of many ridiculous elements of the comic book mythos. It's just...that is the comic book mythos, isn't it? He's a genius, he's a superfighter and superathlete, and he's beyond rich. He fights crime, he leads the Outsiders from time to time, AND he works with the JLA. If you buy into the other absurd elements, you kind of have to buy into that, too, don't you?

Which is why I say "You have a problem with Batman being Batman?" Bit tongue in cheek, but I'm sure you get my meaning.

I think that's largely the point of the character's motivations and origins. "Unneccessary and sundry abilities" and all that. He's pretty much always been "master of everything". Needless? Yes, kind of, but that's the character. That's always been the character.

It just kind of feels like needless additions to me. And you're right, I highly doubt they will give him that power-level. Its just something that has bothered me.

Yeah, I can't see them going that route in live-action. Nolan certainly didn't, and neither did Burton.

Basically, yeah. What it comes down to is Batman was a much more popular character, and DC isn't going to let Batman lose to the Hulk. Now, I wouldn't have minded him beating the Hulk, but they should have done it in a better written way.

Haven't read that issue, but it almost sounds like he was trying to turn The Hulk back into Banner or something.

 

[protocida]

Justice League would have been great if the WGA strike didn't happened and the fans had given it a chance.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

From the Wonder Woman thread:



Tell you what, we'll take it to the JLA movie thread after this.

This is just hilarious. I said that I didn't have desire to carry on this inane conversation, then you throw down a challenge and INVITE me to some other thread I haven't even been following. To debate the merits of a cancelled project that the WB itself walked away from.

You know what's also stupid? I discussed all this crap with you before, Guard. I ran a search on this forum yesterday when you brought up all this crap, and I pulled up an almost identical argument between the two of us from last year. I didn't even remember that crap, but it was all there. I had dealt with each of your points already. Either you don't remember either, or you're just carrying on in defense of your nonexistent movie.

So here we go AGAIN:

Miscast looks? Based on what, exactly? The fact that they don't look exactly like their comic book counterpart? That pretty much makes about 50-75 percent of modern comic book casting invalid, doesn't it?

Based on the majority of fan opinions. Go to any JLM thread and you'll find way more people laughing at or criticizing the cast picks than supporters.

And don't try to twist the wording, it's not about looking "exactly" like their comic character. It's about bringing a few key aspects. Talia is not some college-age white girl who looks better suited for a teen drama on the CW. Max Lord doesn't look like a teenage geek. Superman is not of average height, and he doesn't look like a creep. Etc.

Here we see the very basis of your entire rebuttal: Saying "nuh uh" to almost everything I said, and then just stating the opposite opinion. If it's down to opinions then there's nothing to discuss. You happen to have opinions that differ from most of the fans though.

I hear actors and actresses talking about all kinds of things. Have I heard any talking about acting lessons recently? No, but that doesn't mean they don't.

You don't hear them talking about acting lessons because they know how to act. They've either studied the craft or climbed up the ladder starting with a few smaller roles. Not starting in a starring role on a mega-blockbuster.

Here you are again, giving Gale the complete benefit of the doubt when red multiple red flags are popping out. This is NOT conservative, responsible thinking, when you're talking about a >$100 million (probably closer to $200 million) blockbuster that is supposed to spin off into a series of big-budget movies. If Gale screws up then Wonder Woman would be screwed for another couple of decades.

You really think she wasn't disappointed that the movie was pushed back, pushed back, and then shelved? Don't be ridiculous. What do you want her to do? Cry about it to interviewers?

More with word twisting and exxagerations. A simple "I was looking forward to doing the movie, so this is disappointing," like any other actress would have said, would not have raised more suspicion against her. But being pleased to have more time for acting lessons, DURING time you would have been shooting? That sounds like crap, and you're in denial if you don't think that.

He looks pretty decent without the beard, actually.

More of your opposing opinions. There's nothing to argue if you're not going to explain this in any way. All I can say is no, I DON'T think DJ Cotrona looks like a decent Superman even without the beard.

Does he look just like comic book Superman? No, but obviously that's not what Miller/WB wanted. They were apparently going for something a bit more exotic.

EXOTIC? Excuse me? Is that how you're trying to phrase it now? God, that is just ridiculous. DJ Cotrona's looks give impressions ranging from "ordinary guy" to "bad boy punk." How is that "exotic?" You're just saying anything now to defend this crap. Furthermore Superman isn't supposed to be "exotic" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), he's supposed to be an All-American hero.

What do his size and his cheapness have to do with each other, exactly?

Using FX to cover up his pathetic (for Superman) size = more money.

Ever stop to think that maybe he just NAILED the role in a lot of people's minds, despite the fact that he doesn't look exactly like the comic book Superman?

He could have acted well (something we NEVER saw) and still looked way off. The guy does not look like Superman, period. Even you admitted that, with your BS "exotic" talk.

Do you not understand why people were nervous about a project with so many numerous red flags, such as inexperienced actors, actors who looked like crap, a rush to beat the writer's strike, etc? Quite simply, we saw a bunch of crap, but we didn't see anything good to calm those fears.

When comedy director Favreau was picked for Iron Man, fans were rightfully suspicious. Know what changed? The stellar cast that was revealed. The leaked photos that showed respect to Iron Man's original suit. Robert Downey Jr. looking awesome in a role that mirrors his own real-life drug problems.

JLM was looking more like CINO, or Tim Story's FF sitcom. We NEVER saw or read anything to change that perception. In fact the WB was dead silent and looked like they were trying to quietly back out, which in fact they did end up doing.

You keep saying that we're "assuming" things, but you're somehow not assuming by saying that they MIGHT have nailed their auditions? Basically, most people wanted to see indications of quality. Not just blindly trusting the same studio that had butchered Catwoman and failed to re-launch Superman.

I see.

Based on what?

What, you think Bale would have quit because there's another Batman out there?

Based on the leaks about Talia seeking revenge against Batman for the death of her father Ra's, which would be treated as backstory. That's directly benefitting off of the ending of BB despite not being in the same continuity as BB, which is just confusing and ******ed.

It's also shafting a classic villain in favor of his conflicted daughter and Batman's on-again-off-again love interest, who hasn't even been a real supervillain throughout comic history. They wanted to base the movie on Tower of Babel? Then DO Tower of Babel instead of this watered-down crap. Oh yeah, Ra's was also shafted as the main villain to fit in a laughable teenage dork trying to pass off as "Maxwell Lord."

Then there's putting out a different version of Batman while Nolan's series is still going, which will just confuse the audience and dilute the brand's image which they worked so hard to rebuild after Schumacher had turned Batman into a joke.

"Baby faced preppie college kid".

You mean an "attractive young man"?

Another one of your opposing opinions which mean nothing to me. We disagree, that's it. I can say though that Bruce Wayne is not all about being handsome. He's supposed to be smart, intense, and capable of intimidation. Playing a preppie kid on a bunch of teen dramas doesn't prove that.

What do you think there was going to be, a fist fight between them?

There you go again with your twisting and exaggerations. Jay Baruchel would have been pathetic even trying to talk big against those heroes.

There is NO reason to cast Maxwell Lord as a geeky dweeb. You say it would have enhanced the surprise twist? They could have done that better just by casting Max as a friend of the heroes with no indications of villainy. That way your villain doesn't look like a b**** when he's revealed. It's stupid and pointless to do what they did.

I'm talking about the fact that he too, began as a model. A lot of actors did.

You can compare anything. It's a valid point.

Way to just sidestep the point being made. No one claims that Brandon Routh had an impressive resume before Superman. But at least he was acting on TV for years, including a year-long stay on a single show. Which is far better than Megan Gale could claim, making your comparison of the two of them stupid.

You're "supposed" to weigh the evidence. We have very little evidence to go on. Therefore, you're "supposed" to think "Hmm, I wonder what's going on".

Listen to your own advice man. You say we're supposed to analyze the evidence, yet you clearly haven't done so yourself, and everything you say boils down to ASSUMING and giving the benefit of the doubt.

Other people have rightfully pointed out the lame-looking, inexperienced cast, the director who hadn't done live action in a decade (but may have been a "hot" acquisition to the WB because of his CGI cartoon comedy Happy Feet), and the critical importance to secure the Australian tax breaks by casting Australians (a possibly conflicting goal with casting good actors who fit their roles). We've looked at Gale's OWN admission that she was still taking acting lessons, and the fact that Miller sought her out (not vice versa) despite the lack of acting credits to her name.

Meanwhile all you have to rely on is ASSUMING that they might have had these stunning auditions which you haven't seen either.

If we have seen no evidence of quality, but numerous hints of crap, then it IS reasonable to be suspicious.

I'm done talking with you about this CANCELLED movie. Especially after I found out last night that we had ALREADY hashed out this same exact crap before. The only reason I came back for this post is because you threw down a challenge for me to come here. I'm not wasting any more time when the subject is moot.

 

[Evil Twin]

Sure it's a moot subject. But, at least here, it's an on topic subject.

BTW, where did The Guard ever say it was for certain that JLA was going to be a good movie?

 

[ClarkLuther55]

Sure it's a moot subject. But, at least here, it's an on topic subject.

This may be the JLA thread, but it's still stupid and out of place here. I just looked back a couple of pages a minute ago, and there's some really good discussion on how Batman would fit in, or how he should be written. I actually feel bad that our stupid argument got brought in here.

BTW, where did The Guard ever say it was for certain that JLA was going to be a good movie?

He's just playing the contrarian and Devil's Advocate by telling all the JLM detractors (i.e. the vast majority of the online fandom) that they're being unreasonable after one of the star actresses admitted that she was still learning how to act, among a lot of other crap. When all he has to say is that in his opinion these actors don't look ridiculous, while giving the benefit of the doubt that they might have had really good auditions. We have no reason to give the benefit of the doubt without seeing anything good.

And no Guard, I won't carry this crap on with you any longer. This thread has its own, better conversations going on.

 

[protocida]

Geoff Johns could write the Script. t:

 

[Webhead2006]

I said it before i still would be interested in seeing how this project would have turned out would it turn out to be a decent flick or turn into something that was crap like catwoman. As for cast i liked some guys while i didnt like others for various reasons. As for the story i dont know it could have gone either way but we never really had to much known as what was going to ultimately happen. Though if the WGA strike didnt happen i really wonder how things would have been for wb and dc films.....

 

[protocida]

It'd be more than "decent". It'd be GOOD!

 

[The Guard]

A recurring, almost identical argument between two people who disagree on a topic? On SHH? With the previous argument haven taken place only six months ago or more? Maybe it's because I spend time on the Superman boards, but that doesn't strike me as that odd. Personally, I think the JLA arguments should never die.

Yes, we've probably had this argument before, though I scarcely remember the details of it. If you don't want to rehash it, you certainly don't have to.

Perhaps someone else will take up the cause.

Fans laughing at and criticizing what they don't know much about isn't exactly evidence that the cast actually sucks. There was a time when the majority of fans were looking at BATMAN BEGINS going "What is Chris Nolan doing with X, X, and X?".

DJ Cotrona doesn't look exactly like comic book Superman. He doesn't look a lot like comic book Superman. I have no idea why he was allegedly cast. I would imagine though, when applying logic to this issue, that it's because someone, somewhere, saw something "Superman" in him during screentests, out of the hundreds and hundreds of people who tested for the role, including dozens of semi known actors.

I really could care less about his height. Film is a lot of illusion, and if they thought they could pull of a 5'8 or 5'9 or 5'10 or whatever he'd end up being Superman with Gale's Wonder Woman and Hammer's Batman, I would have assessed the height issues then. I don't think it requires anything other than camera angles and various lift devices, which doesn't seem all that expensive to me. That's what I keep hearing about Tom Cruise, at least. You say he looks like a creep. Why, do all guys who have slightly ethnic features look creepy? I say "exotic", because he does look sort of exotic. I said "They were apparently going for something a bit more exotic". By which I mean more exotic than the usual look for Superman. There's a slight ethnic look there, he's not the All American, etc. Looks like they were going with something slightly new (Not that Dean Cain was All American, either). Now, should that be done? Would that work? I don't know. I don't know how this Superman was written. I didn't see him in costume, or doing screentests. Put him in SUPERMAN RETURNS, with a quieter, more pensive, "stalker" Superman, and I can almost see it. Superman, in my experience, could very much look like a creep when he's angry. And since this story was to feature Superman turning rogue, and showcase a darker side of him, I would think "creep" would be appropriate in that event. And yes, I think he looks decent without his beard, with which he tends to look a bit grungy.

I don't know for sure, obviously, but I don't think someone went "Hey, we need to save a few bucks, let's cast this random creep as one of our leads over those other hundred guys".

Talia isn't college age (at least now she isn't) in the comics, but castingwise, she's whatever the script says she is. If she's a young, college aged girl, or slightly beyond that, then a college aged girl would kind of make sense in terms of casting, wouldn't it? Maybe she can play older than she looks or something. Don't know.

Max Lord looks like a generic comic book male most of the time. While I wasn't thrilled to find out Jay Baruchel was in the running/cast for Lord, I immediately starting wondering why he'd been cast. And I think the logic there is apparent. They didn't want Lord to seem like a threat. Well, mission accomplished.

No, my opinions aren't the same as most fans. Most of the fans don't bother to think any of this through, and simply relied on what was easy: believing every little thing they heard, and then assuming the worst about what was true out of all those rumors.

You don't hear actors talking about acting lessons because it's just not generally considered interesting to hear people talk about studying up on their craft. Actors are usually heard from in interviews of some kind, and people tend to want to hear about relationships, projects, and so on, not the last time so and so saw their acting coach. But do you really think some/many actors don't take acting lessons, have acting coaches, from time to time? If she's not mega established, I really see very little wrong with her talking about taking acting lessons.

Saying you take lessons doesn't mean "I can't act".

And I'm not giving her the complete benefit of the doubt. I was as skeptical as anyone, because I haven't seen much from her that would indicate she could pull off a dramatic turn as Wonder Woman, but I also don't think that WB was going to throw this project away by handing it to people who would make icons into laughingstocks.

Gale did express disappointment over JLA stalling. She still does. She did more than that one interview. I can't be sure, because she did a ton of those interviews, but I'm pretty sure she actually said she was disappointed in the same interview she talked about acting lessons.

You say IRON MAN came out and a stellar cast was revealed. From what I recall, much of the fanbase was iffy on RDJ as Tony Stark. Basically, you're telling me that what changed nervous fans minds about that was seeing the film made. Which would make JLA like, oh...90 percent of other comic book films. Iffy elements until fans finally see pictures, footage, and know full details.

I can't compare JLA to CINO, because unlike CINO, JLA featured existing characters, and a storyline that was clearly drawn almost straight from the comics.

WB wasn't able to quietly back out of the project, it was huge news in the movie world. They just weren't real, real vocal about it. But they've never been real, real vocal about much of anything, dating back to SUPERMAN LIVES, potential Batman sequels, and those BATMAN: YEAR ONE projects.

It's fine not to know what the JLA project was, and to be apprehensive about it. I understand completely why people were nervous. I was nervous, too. But I did not, and cannot now, pretend to have the slightest clue about the details of the project. I don't know if the actors would have been good in their roles, but common sense dictates that they must have been decent in some fashion, or they wouldn't have been cast.

This wasn't a case of "names" being cast to sell a film, or people who "knew" people. This was a case of relative strangers to George Miller before the project being assembled, almost at random, despite these roles being quite sought after at the time. There had to be a reason for that. I'm not "blindly" trusting the creators of the project. I don't know much of anything about it. So I can't say either way.

I fail to see how Talia emerging "casts aside Bale" in any real sense. JLA was apparently going to be loosely tied to BATMAN BEGINS and maybe to SUPERMAN RETURNS. I don't know. Didn't read the script.

I have little sympathy for audiences who would get "confused" over multiple actors playing Batman, especially if this stuff was in the news eventually. About as much as I did for people who kept wondering if BATMAN BEGINS was tied to BATMAN.

Talia is very much a villain in Batman's history. She's not a major one, but she is a capable one. Especially recently.

Ra's Al Ghul was apparently dead. The final version of BATMAN BEGINS made it pretty apparent that he was either dead, or presumed dead.

Talia was going to be seeking revenge for his death. Therefore, Ra's was being "shafted" because he was dead. Makes logical sense to me. Who knows, it's entirely possible that Ra's was to return at the end of the storyline and be revealed as alive. Don't know. Didn't read the script.

You talking about "Then DO TOWER OF BABEL" is kind of like me going "Jeez, Nolan, you want to base BATMAN BEGINS off YEAR ONE? Then DO YEAR ONE". It's an adaption.

How would having two Batmen dilute the Batman brand's image? Wouldn't that strengthen it?

Your statements about Armie Hammer kind of sound like you just don't buy he could be intense and intimidating because you haven't seen it. Fair enough. I'll admit we haven't seen that. But that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Why would Jay Baruchel have been pathetic, exactly?

Hey, I'm all for a faithful version of characters, lookswise. I'm also all for using someone other than Max Lord and Talia as the villains.

Brandon Routh was a model once, yes? He was, at one point, expected to act one day after being a model, yes? How is it unfair to compare them? There's no mathematical formula about how long or how much experience it takes to become a good actor. At that level, you pretty much either are capable of it, or you aren't. There are only so many tricks you can learn. You can't really teach good acting, you can teach various techniques to a good actor. To someone with no natural ability or ability to grasp the concepts, you'd have a hard time even teaching the basics and having them stick.

You then say that casting Australian actors may have taken precedent...I think I already pointed this out before: are there not good actors in Australia? Why settle for a bad one, when there are plenty of good, and probably fairly well known, actors in Australia?

I have no idea why you think I have given this entire film the benefit of the doubt. I'm simply saying we can't make any declarations either way about the quality of its elements. I haven't assumed the auditions were great, either. I have no idea.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

I said I wouldn't carry on this crap debate with Guard, and I still won't. I'm not going to go over his latest long post which says all the same stuff over again. A few things need to taken out though, because they show a lot about Guard's mindset and how he's approaching this topic:

Why, do all guys who have slightly ethnic features look creepy?

You are WAY out of line here. You basically just called me a racist. When did I say anything implying anybody who looks "ethnic" (which is a white-centric term in the first place) looks creepy? I'm not even white myself. I simply said COTRONA looks like a creep. Anybody reading this, just Google this guy's pics and ask yourself if this guy looks like a clean-cut hero. Guard even said HIMSELF that he looks "grungy" with his beard.

This line of yours just sickened me. What a bunch of crap.

Put him in SUPERMAN RETURNS, with a quieter, more pensive, "stalker" Superman, and I can almost see it. Superman, in my experience, could very much look like a creep when he's angry. And since this story was to feature Superman turning rogue, and showcase a darker side of him, I would think "creep" would be appropriate in that event. And yes, I think he looks decent without his beard, with which he tends to look a bit grungy.

Jesus Christ, Superman is not a damn creep. People JOKED about him being a "stalker" in SR, and that movie isn't entirely without fault for how he came across, but that was completely unintentional. Superman wouldn't go rogue unless he was being mind-controlled. If Superman comes across as a creep with a dark side in JLM then that's pissing all over the character. How much do you know or care about the character, Guard? You know what, don't even answer that because I don't need to know nor do I care. I do know that this idea is stupid.

Talia was going to be seeking revenge for his death. Therefore, Ra's was being "shafted" because he was dead. Makes logical sense to me. Who knows, it's entirely possible that Ra's was to return at the end of the storyline and be revealed as alive. Don't know. Didn't read the script.

So now it comes out. You know, I didn't read the script either. I was commenting on a ton of crap that didn't involve the script. But you kept bringing up the story, and how Baruchel must be part of this thought out plan to shock the audience with a swerve (which would still be lame), etc. So stop talking like you know better, once again you're ASSUMING as much as anyone. Probably more, since, without any shred of proof, you're assuming that the WB knew what they were doing. When the director hadn't directed live action in a decade, the studio sucked at adapting comic book superhero properties, and they were under massive pressure to cast Australians (Palmer, Gale), one of whom ADMITTED to being a newbie "actress," just for a tax break.

This just convinces me even more that I shouldn't bother rehashing this dumb debate with you.

 

[The Guard]

I said I wouldn't carry on this crap debate with Guard, and I still won't. I'm not going to go over his latest long post which says all the same stuff over again. A few things need to taken out though, because they show a lot about Guard's mindset and how he's approaching this topic:

You are WAY out of line here. You basically just called me a racist. When did I say anything implying anybody who looks "ethnic" (which is a white-centric term in the first place) looks creepy? I'm not even white myself. I simply said COTRONA looks like a creep. Anybody reading this, just Google this guy's pics and ask yourself if this guy looks like a clean-cut hero. Guard even said HIMSELF that he looks "grungy" with his beard.

This line of yours just sickened me. What a bunch of crap.

I just asked you a question. I led the questioning a bit, because I'm certainly curious about particular visual elements of him and your reaction to them, but I certainly didn't call you a racist. I'm just curious as to why you think he looks creepy visually.

Only thing I can think of is that he doesn't have the clean cut All American look, and has vaguely ethnic features instead of them, since he obviously doesn't always wear the beard or 'stache.

Again, I'm just curious as to why you and anyone else would think he looks just plain creepy, if it's not the beard or his features.

I just don't see what about this:

http://www.wvah.com/programs/skin/djcotrona.jpg

Is inherently creepy.

Jesus Christ, Superman is not a damn creep. People JOKED about him being a "stalker" in SR, and that movie isn't entirely without fault for how he came across, but that was completely unintentional.

I thought my point was pretty clear. They were apparently going for a darker, slightly more serious Superman, and I can almost see it. Because based on this casting choice, it appears there's clearly no way they were "going for" an outright cheerful looking, All American Superman, right?

Superman wouldn't go rogue unless he was being mind-controlled.

True. But then,

Spoiler

Superman does indeed go rogue because he is mind controlled

in the source material this is based on.

If Superman comes across as a creep with a dark side in JLM then that's pissing all over the character. How much do you know or care about the character, Guard? You know what, don't even answer that because I don't need to know nor do I care. I do know that this idea is stupid.

You're suggesting that if Superman shows a dark side in JLM, that this is pissing all over the character? I don't agree. I certainly wouldn't want an entire film of that, but I think if that element it utilized a little, it's basically just showing a different side of the character, one there's a comic book precedent for.

I know quite a bit about Superman, actually. I also know quite a bit about what can be done with Superman. I don't think he always needs to look friendly and approachable. And as I said, it's not like Superman hasn't ever almost lost control before in the comics, showed rage, anger, and been downright scary sometimes.

So now it comes out. You know, I didn't read the script either. I was commenting on a ton of crap that didn't involve the script. But you kept bringing up the story, and how Baruchel must be part of this thought out plan to shock the audience with a swerve (which would still be lame), etc. So stop talking like you know better, once again you're ASSUMING as much as anyone. Probably more, since, without any shred of proof, you're assuming that the WB knew what they were doing. When the director hadn't directed live action in a decade, the studio sucked at adapting comic book superhero properties, and they were under massive pressure to cast Australians (Palmer, Gale), one of whom ADMITTED to being a newbie "actress," just for a tax break.

This just convinces me even more that I shouldn't bother rehashing this dumb debate with you.

So now it comes out that what? That I don't know for sure? That's hardly a newsflash, I don't think. Where does anything I've said indicate that I know for sure? This is all speculation, and I've generally phrased it as such, or as a logical exploration of why they may have done this or that.

I have no idea why Baruchel was cast, but I don't think my logic is inherently "wrong".

I don't even know what "knowing better" means in this context. I certainly haven't said anywhere that I know for sure.

If she's a young, college aged girl, or slightly beyond that, then a college aged girl would kind of make sense in terms of casting, wouldn't it? Maybe she can play older than she looks or something. Don't know.

Max Lord looks like a generic comic book male most of the time. While I wasn't thrilled to find out Jay Baruchel was in the running/cast for Lord, I immediately starting wondering why he'd been cast. And I think the logic there is apparent. They didn't want Lord to seem like a threat. Well, mission accomplished.

but I also don't think that WB was going to throw this project away by handing it to people who would make icons into laughingstocks

This wasn't a case of "names" being cast to sell a film, or people who "knew" people. This was a case of relative strangers to George Miller before the project being assembled, almost at random, despite these roles being quite sought after at the time. There had to be a reason for that. I'm not "blindly" trusting the creators of the project. I don't know much of anything about it. So I can't say either way.

Who knows, it's entirely possible that Ra's was to return at the end of the storyline and be revealed as alive. Don't know. Didn't read the script.

I have no idea why you think I have given this entire film the benefit of the doubt. I'm simply saying we can't make any declarations either way about the quality of its elements. I haven't assumed the auditions were great, either. I have no idea.[

Frankly, I'd rather discuss the potential reasons for things than just whine about the things themselves. That bores me to tears.

There is a massive difference between discussing possibilities and assuming things. I feel that I have assumed very little about this project. And the things that I have assumed, like "Maybe someone thought they'd be good for the role", strike me as pretty logical given their context.

 

[protocida]

Max's villany would be a twist, tough. From the Script leaks, he'd first be introduced as an corporative CEO who forms a partnership with Wayne Industries.

 

[BATZARRO WWD]

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00026714.html

Green Lantern's proposed Australian shoot is understood to be under threat after the rising Australian dollar has blown out production costs." It is still unclear what effect this financial issue may bring to this movie, but "Justice League Mortal" was earlier put on the back burner after Australia refused to give the film a tax break.

Just sayin'...

 

[SuperAl]

id prefer wb and dc to wait until they establish all the franchises and use the actors from each one to make a justice league movie. I just hate the idea of having two actors playing superman or batman at the same time. I kno bale is against it, but if the dude could be talked into terminator salvation he can be talked into justice league

 

[Webhead2006]

well the gl news has been talked about already over on gl and supes board. Hopefully since filming isnt due to start to jan/feb they can move to some where else or things can get resolve and it starts on time.

 

[protocida]

Dammit, Australia! Why are you doing this to us?

 

[Webhead2006]

Well we shouldnt be to worry right now, the reports state the shoot MAY be in trouble but it could easily be worked out and things will be fine, and if not they do have plently of time to move elsewhere. It will only be a problem of campbell/producers/wb come out and say things are not moving. But like i and others have said already on this, Wb would be big fools to let GL slip.

 

[Venom'sDad]

id prefer wb and dc to wait until they establish all the franchises and use the actors from each one to make a justice league movie. I just hate the idea of having two actors playing superman or batman at the same time. I kno bale is against it, but if the dude could be talked into terminator salvation he can be talked into justice league

Nolan's Batman III, for lack of a better title, will be Bale's last film as TDK.

 

[FaT_tONle]

With Bale signing on a project like Terminator there is no doubt in my mind WB can lure him into almost anything. That said, there is no way the JLA movie is happening any time soon.