Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[db85usa]

It would have been JUST AS EASILY to re write things in Scotts favor & had him in Logans place at the end. But you seem to ignore the fact that FOX had an agenda & letted their obsession with the Character of "Wolverine" get in the way. They messed up one thing they could have EASILY GOT RIGHT & change it to fit the Movies but as I said FOX had an agenda & Wolverine is their Main Character.

Bottom Line: You make it sound like it would be impossible to have Scott be the one to stop Pheonix in the Movie when it isnt & as I said FOX had an agenda & Wolverine is their Main Character

Something to think about.

don't you think it would have been kind of weird to make Wolvering "their man" in x1 and x2 and then totally forget about him? Of course, this trilogy was carried by Wolverine (Jackman) i do think they should have included Cyclops in the movies more ... I would have liked both Cyclops and Wolverine standing together in that scene from X3.... and them having a short argument over Phoenix/Jean... I would have loved to see Logan tell Scott "Go to her.." and then to see Scott make a run for her and then slowly turning into bits, then he ends up getting thrown into something... and then Logan realizes the Phoenix wants HIM not Scott and then this is where Logan says "Jean, I know you're still there!" and Scott watches Logan walking towards her. they could have EASILY included Scott into the scene but they would have to take him out of the climax considering his powers, it had to be Logan... but I thought it was more powerful with just Jean & Logan alone or Wolvering & Phoenix... whatever you want to call it. Cyclops is dead... now fox will do something stupid and make a new x-men trilogy and have it surround Gambit or something.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

At that point I think he was desperate to help her in any way he could. Yes, that "tamed" Jean was the persona he loved, and he wanted nothing more than to have "her" back. I believe over time he came to realize that maybe that wasn't what was best for her. When he was calling to Jean he was working from his gut. Yes he wanted her back. It was only after he was able to think about what she had said to him, to think about how out of control she was, how many people had been killed by her, how she begged him in the infirmary to kill her, and after what Storm said to him before the final conflict (when she asked him if he was ready to do what he needed to do, or something to that affect), it was then he saw that the only solution was that he would ultimately have to kill her to save her.

So you don't agree totally with Undomiel's ideas that the 'Phoenix' (bad Jean) liked Wolverine because he wanted to set her free... Free in the way he meant it, and free in the way you are using it are very different. You show that it is the 'old Jean' that is looking to be set free, by death. Where Undomiel is stating the Phoenix is looking to be set free to feel, discover, play.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Pheonix was originally attracted to Logan because of his former personality... the Scott represented too much of the old Jean so the Pheonix did away with him... I think the Pheonix just spared Logan cause he wasn't worth it at the time...

 

[Endeavor]

As wrong as that sounds it would have been nice if we would have at least gotten that in the film. But we didn't, we saw very little of what was actually going on inside Jean/Phoenix's mind.

 

[Avalanche]

I think the Pheonix just spared Logan cause he wasn't worth it at the time...

I don't think so.

 

[Endeavor]

I don't think so.

What do you think?

 

[FaT_tONle]

I don't think so.

Well Logan was fulfilling the pheonix's ID for a minute so it at least explains why she was attracted to him... but so she spared him... big deal.. she knew he wasn't a threat at the time... I would have loved to see an extended Alkalai Lake... but it would've downgraded the emotion of the Xavier death... I almost cried when I saw that... the Cyke death merely foreshadowed what was to become of it... but yes... I would have liked to see Scott begging for his life and the return of Jean beforwe BAM... Maybe the Pheonix was testing her powers on Scott... a waste... but what can you expect in an hour and a half film...

 

[Angry Sentinel]

The entire endscene goes against what was set up throughout the movie--including Logan himself. "If your with us, be with us."
"...I'm not going to let that happen. We stand together, X-Men, all of us..."

"You'd die for them?"
"No...." WTF?!? No??? Did he just say no?

Yes, contrived and useless to plot.

... You can almost see the red hand of business eraser changing and rearranging things at some points in this movie. I saw more struggles in this script between artistic expression and business moneymaking statistics than I did between the characters and the plots in the movie.

These are professional screen writers. When I was younger, I just believed they had 'idiot' moments and stepped out to lunch. Then I got older and got a job and found out the politics behind business and money. I saw how others take credit for my work, and change my work becuase it doesn't fit the company's goals. To an outside onlooker, they would see 'my work' and think What an idiot, but I would know it was altered.

 

[Jan Irisi]

So you don't agree totally with Undomiel's ideas that the 'Phoenix' (bad Jean) liked Wolverine because he wanted to set her free... Free in the way he meant it, and free in the way you are using it are very different. You show that it is the 'old Jean' that is looking to be set free, by death. Where Undomiel is stating the Phoenix is looking to be set free to feel, discover, play.

I really don't see Phoenix looking to "be set free". I think she in a way is free, particularly after Xavier is gone. "Good" Jean on the other hand does want to be stopped, or to be set free. Her smile as she died was very telling.

 

[undomiel]

When did Scott want to control Jean? Please, tell me, i wanna know. I know you're heavily biased towards logan and jean, but now you're making up statements.

And everyone forgets that Logan loved the jean thats supposedly being controlled by charles and scott. He wanted to save Jean....not phoenix. He basically wanted Jean back in the cage too, or is everyone so in love with logan that they cant realize that?

First of all, Logan was angry when he found out that Xavier was controlling Jean. He didn't think that was right. He wanted her to be free, but he didn't know what that meant until after she woke up. Yes, then he wanted the old Jean back, but he believed that's who she truly was underneath, if only she could be reached and saved from Dark Phoenix ("she's not herself" he insists to Storm when he's going off to track Jean down). I think he believed it possible that she could be her good self without Xavier's mind controls.

Second, I'm not saying that it's overtly stated anywhere that Scott wants to control Jean. But in the extra footage from X1, Logan insinuates to Jean that both Scott and the professor are holding her back. He was certainly right about the professor, and from that I think we can reasonably speculate that he was also right about Scott. Are we really to assume that Scott knew nothing of Xavier's mind-controlling of Jean? (And if so, that would demonstrate that Scott doesn't even really know the woman he loves! She is an artificial creation, or at best only half of her true self.) Anyway, in that same conversation Jean counters Logan by extolling the virtues of Scott's self-control. Let's face it -- Scott's the type of guy who places a lot of value on control. I'm not even saying that's all bad; in many ways it's good, but it would predispose him to accepting that Jean, the woman he's about to marry, being mind-controlled to some extent by Xavier. He's not going to have the same kind of problem with that that a wild, untamed spirit like Wolverine would have. Wolverine would probably rather see her dead than an artificial person in a cage, because he, too, hates cages ( "sometimes when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry") and lo and behold, in the end of the story, that's the choice he makes. He would think it more humane.

The intense beauty of it all is that we do know that, even when Wolverine sees and knows Jean/Dark Phoenix for all that she is, he still loves her. Completely. And that has to be the truest of true loves -- to see the good, the bad, and the very ugly in someone, and to love them still. Logan was ready to die for her -- Jean, Dark Phoenix and all.

 

[Jan Irisi]

The entire endscene goes against what was set up throughout the movie--including Logan himself. "If your with us, be with us."
"...I'm not going to let that happen. We stand together, X-Men, all of us..."

"You'd die for them?"
"No...." WTF?!? No??? Did he just say no?

Yes, contrived and useless to plot.

They stood together to stop Magneto.

 

[Endeavor]

Woah! Hold on a second there! 'Artificial person'? Are you implying the Phoenix personality is the true/original personality and that the Jean persona is a construct made by Xavier? If so you couldn't be more wrong.
Xavier clearly stated that what he did was create mental blocks to supress Jean's powers and that said act resulted in "forming a second personality, which in their sessions called herself Phoenix". It's Phoenix who's the splinter personality - a biproduct of the mental tampering and the likely frustration of feeling tied up and subdued- not the other way around.

 

[GhostPoet]

I am changing my theory after thinking about it a little more.

I think Jean loved Logan more. She only stayed with Scott because A) she DID love him. b) he's the "nice guy" c) She felt a loyalty to him, she didn't want to drop him for some other guy.

So while she loved Scott, I think in this version of the story she loved Logan more...

 

[GhostPoet]

The entire endscene goes against what was set up throughout the movie--including Logan himself. "If your with us, be with us."
"...I'm not going to let that happen. We stand together, X-Men, all of us..."

"You'd die for them?"
"No...." WTF?!? No??? Did he just say no?

Yes, contrived and useless to plot.

If Logan had said yes....she would have killed him.

 

[undomiel]

of course she loved them both...she just loved scott more....

You can't say that -- you don't know that. But I do give you credit for at least admitting that she had feelings for both of them, and not just for Scott, which is what some Scott/Jean shippers claim.

Jean never fully expresses her feelings; we are left to assume them. And it makes perfect sense that she would push the Wolverine away even if she did care for him more because she is already committed to Scott as his fiancee. She could just be making a moral choice over her feelings (not saying that's bad -- just that it doesn't prove she loved Scott more).

 

[Endeavor]

I am changing my theory after thinking about it a little more.

I think Jean loved Logan more. She only stayed with Scott because A) she DID love him. b) he's the "nice guy" c) She felt a loyalty to him, she didn't want to drop him for some other guy.

So while she loved Scott, I think in this version of the story she loved Logan more...

You must believe in love at first sight, but how does that help those of us that don't believe in such notions? Because unless you believe in love at first sight that doesn't make any sense. She barely knew the guy.

 

[GhostPoet]

You must believe in love at first sight, but how does that help those of us that don't believe in such notions? Because unless you believe in love at first sight that doesn't make any sense. She barely knew the guy.

Suspension of disbelief.

Just because you don't believe it...doesn't mean it's not true anyway. Just enjoy the movie.

 

[Endeavor]

If Logan had said yes....she would have killed him.

Ok, so then this means that he would have died for them but he lied to her because he didn't want her to kill him, right?... But that doesn't make sense when you consider that the next words out of his mouth were "I'd die for you"

 

[supermarvelman]

Wolverine = Lust = Pheonix

Cyclops = Love = Jean Grey

 

[Endeavor]

Suspension of disbelief.

Just because you don't believe it...doesn't mean it's not true anyway. Just enjoy the movie.

Gee thanks. I thought we were bouncing observations and ideas back and forth to actually have a meaningfull discussion but no... I guess since you say so I can now go and watch the movie and enjoy it, you know because it's as simple as that.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Wolverine = Lust = Pheonix

Cyclops = Love = Jean Grey

No. Wolverine loved Jean Grey, the Phoenix repulsed him.

 

[GhostPoet]

Ok, so then this means that he would have died for them but he lied to her because he didn't want her to kill him, right?... But that doesn't make sense when you consider that the next words out of his mouth were "I'd die for you"

It makes total sense. Saying that broke through the Phoenix final barriers and gave him the opportunity he needed to take her down. He meant it when he said he'd die for her...but it was also another way of getting past the Phoenix.
Why? Because it's more personal. It's about him and her ONLY at that moment.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Ok, so then this means that he would have died for them but he lied to her because he didn't want her to kill him, right?... But that doesn't make sense when you consider that the next words out of his mouth were "I'd die for you"

Sure he would be willing to die for the rest of them. But at that moment, he was there for her, willing to die for her.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I am changing my theory after thinking about it a little more.

I think Jean loved Logan more. She only stayed with Scott because A) she DID love him. b) he's the "nice guy" c) She felt a loyalty to him, she didn't want to drop him for some other guy.

So while she loved Scott, I think in this version of the story she loved Logan more...

No way man... Logan was always just a crush... she didn't want to be with Logan just to **** around... I just think she couldn't hold back the Pheonix with the other two Xmen she killed... but finally did against Logan... sometimes it's just that obvious...

 

[GhostPoet]

Gee thanks. I thought we were bouncing observations and ideas back and forth to actually have a meaningfull discussion but no... I guess since you say so I can now go and watch the movie and enjoy it, you know because it's as simple as that.

I'm not aware of anything else needed to enjoy a movie than just sitting and watching it with suspension of disbelief....?