Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[GhostPoet]

Oh and I LIKE bouncing ideas back and forth...but something like "Well, I don't believe in love at first sight" isn't really an idea that can be bounced back and forth :P You either believe it or you don't.

 

[undomiel]

Woah! Hold on a second there! 'Artificial person'? Are you implying the Phoenix personality is the true/original personality and that the Jean persona is a construct made by Xavier? If so you couldn't be more wrong.
Xavier clearly stated that what he did was create mental blocks to supress Jean's powers and that said act resulted in "forming a second personality, which in their sessions called herself Phoenix". It's Phoenix who's the splinter personality - a biproduct of the mental tampering and the likely frustration of feeling tied up and subdued- not the other way around.

I'm saying that Xavier kept her from being her full self because he feared her power and what she would do to others. Hence, the mental blocks. Either way you look at it, the Phoenix persona still originated with Jean -- it's part of who she is. Remember how angry and nasty she was with Xavier and Magneto when they first visited her? The bad part was already in there, otherwise there would've been nothing to need to control.

 

[GhostPoet]

No way man... Logan was always just a crush... she didn't want to be with Logan just to **** around... I just think she couldn't hold back the Pheonix with the other two Xmen she killed... but finally did against Logan... sometimes it's just that obvious...

I guess the question is...do you think that because in the comic Jean loved Scott more? Or because of something in the movie?

One thing that makes me think she loved Logan more is because she killed Scott..(well, we assume) but Logan's love for her prevailed over the power of the Phoenix....

She may have chose Scott in X-2...but I think partially out of committment to him.

 

[Endeavor]

I'm not aware of anything else needed to enjoy a movie than just sitting and watching it with suspension of disbelief....?

This wasn't just some new story plucked from oblivion by a genius writer, this is a story that's dragging a lot of history behind it. Not only from the previous movies, but also from other media such as the cartoons and the comics. As such, simple 'suspension of disbelief' does not apply, because you have to take other things into account such as continuity and logical plot flow. Both of which are issues being addressed by people who didn't like this movie. Myself included.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Oh and I LIKE bouncing ideas back and forth...but something like "Well, I don't believe in love at first sight" isn't really an idea that can be bounced back and forth :P You either believe it or you don't.

And by not believing in love at first sight it completely negates most if not all of the romantic comedies or romance stories throughout cinematic history. The majority of those depend on the notion of love at first sight.


And yes it does exist. That is the reason I am married to the man I am right now.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I guess the question is...do you think that because in the comic Jean loved Scott more? Or because of something in the movie?

One thing that makes me think she loved Logan more is because she killed Scott..(well, we assume) but Logan's love for her prevailed over the power of the Phoenix....

She may have chose Scott in X-2...but I think partially out of committment to him.

First of all the Pheonix can't really 'Love" anyone... and I know regular Jean loved Cyke... the Cyke death was incomplete... all I am saying is that it foreshadowed what was to become of Xavier... to make that more emotional than the Cyke death... finally Jean was able to supress the Pheonix enough... it was just Logan trying to save her instead of Cyke.. since these movies were always about Wolverine... stop complaining about that element in the film...

 

[Angry Sentinel]

I really don't see Phoenix looking to "be set free". I think she in a way is free, particularly after Xavier is gone. "Good" Jean on the other hand does want to be stopped, or to be set free. Her smile as she died was very telling.

I agree with you, I think this is exactly the thought process the writer's intended. That's why I asked earlier do you all think that Phoenix (bad Jean) was just sooo enamored by Wolverine and that it was all her persona that kept the her from vaporizing him initially.

Good Jean, although not seen alot, was back there pulling the strings. Phoenix was driving but she was still being manipulated by the Jean Grey we all know and love. But if this is all true, and it is Jean who is somehow keeping Phoenix in check... then here is my biggest problem with this... WHY KILL SCOTT?

 

[GhostPoet]

This wasn't just some new story plucked from oblivion by a genius writer, this is a story that's dragging a lot of history behind it. Not only from the previous movies, but also from other media such as the cartoons and the comics. As such, simple 'suspension of disbelief' does not apply, because you have to take other things into account such as continuity and logical plot flow. Both of which are issues being addressed by people who didn't like this movie. Myself included.

But see...that's my thing. You can't judge the history of the stories fully against the movies...the movies are alternate realities. Alternative storylines. Remixes. Kind of like the comparison between the main X-Men comic series and Ultimate X-Men. The Phoenix stories in those two particular alternate realities are VERY different.

 

[GhostPoet]

First of all the Pheonix can't really 'Love" anyone... and I know regular Jean loved Cyke... the Cyke death was incomplete... all I am saying is that it foreshadowed what was to become of Xavier... to make that more emotional than the Cyke death... finally Jean was able to supress the Pheonix enough... it was just Logan trying to save her instead of Cyke.. since these movies were always about Wolverine... stop complaining about that element in the film...

I deffinetly agree on Scott's "death" being too quick (or rather not seen at all)
I'm hoping that the extended edition will include more to the scene.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I agree with you, I think this is exactly the thought process the writer's intended. That's why I asked earlier do you all think that Phoenix (bad Jean) was just sooo enamored by Wolverine and that it was all her persona that kept the her from vaporizing him initially.

Good Jean, although not seen alot, was back there pulling the strings. Phoenix was driving but she was still being manipulated by the Jean Grey we all know and love. But if this is all true, and it is Jean who is somehow keeping Phoenix in check... then here is my biggest problem with this... WHY KILL SCOTT?

Cause Jean had no control at the beginning... she was all crazy from the point she lost consciousness to when she awoke... finally Logan reminded her of Scott and she realized what she had done... but she still had little control over Pheonix

 

[FaT_tONle]

I deffinetly agree on Scott's "death" being too quick (or rather not seen at all)
I'm hoping that the extended edition will include more to the scene.

It's not... so don't lose sleep waiting up for it.... cmon guys EVERY MOVIE HAS GAPS AND HOLES... it was a mistake but when was the last time a movie was perfect... you accept the imperfection if you buy the DVD... or if it still bothers you that much... don't buy it... end of story.

 

[Endeavor]

But see...that's my thing. You can't judge the history of the stories fully against the movies...the movies are alternate realities. Alternative storylines. Remixes. Kind of like the comparison between the main X-Men comic series and Ultimate X-Men. The Phoenix stories in those two particular alternate realities are VERY different.

I did mention the previous 2 movies in my post.
I'm looking at X3 from different angles: As a stand alone film, as part of the trilogy (taking into account X1 and X2 continuity) and as part of the broader X-Men franchise (including the cartoons and comics).
For me, this film comes up short in all categories.

 

[GhostPoet]

It's not... so don't lose sleep waiting up for it.... cmon guys EVERY MOVIE HAS GAPS AND HOLES... it was a mistake but when was the last time a movie was perfect... accept the imperfection if you but the DVD... or if it still bothers you that much... don't buy it... end of story.

Have they released the scene list for the extended yet?

 

[FaT_tONle]

I did mention the previous 2 movies in my post.
I'm looking at X3 from different angles: As a stand alone film, as part of the trilogy (taking into account X1 and X2 continuity) and as part of the broader X-Men franchise (including the cartoons and comics).
For me, this film comes up short in all categories.

I think your expectations were too high... but that's fair enough... but all categories??? That's incorrect...

 

[FaT_tONle]

Have they released the scene list for the extended yet?

No idea... Ratner and Arad will say some bull sh:t for the time being just to keep fans salivating... nothing more than a few deleted scenes not incorporated in the film... hopefully the extended cut will at least incorporate it if there even is one... which I doubt...

 

[Jan Irisi]

I agree with you, I think this is exactly the thought process the writer's intended. That's why I asked earlier do you all think that Phoenix (bad Jean) was just sooo enamored by Wolverine and that it was all her persona that kept the her from vaporizing him initially.

Good Jean, although not seen alot, was back there pulling the strings. Phoenix was driving but she was still being manipulated by the Jean Grey we all know and love. But if this is all true, and it is Jean who is somehow keeping Phoenix in check... then here is my biggest problem with this... WHY KILL SCOTT?

I think Phoenix would have roasted Storm had Storm been within roasting distance. (That is, if Scott got offed the same way Xavier did) Anything that was associated with good "Jean", and her past, and what she associated with being controlled.

As mentioned above...what knocked Jean/Phoenix out?

 

[FaT_tONle]

We can only pray that these questions are answered on the DVD... this is probably the biggest hole in the movie...

 

[Endeavor]

I think your expectations were too high... but that's fair enough... but all categories??? That's incorrect...

Incorrect?
Are you presuming to pass judgement on my likes and dislikes?
LOL
You guys are too much. If I say that the movie didn't meet my expectations in either one of those categories that's because that's the way it is.
You think my expectations were too high? Fair enough, that's your opinion, not more. I happen to think I have a well balanced point of view and can be neutral when I have to be. At the same time I don't settle for second best, especially when talking about things I hold dear.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Did we see what we think we saw? Something more happened than just Scott going poof. Something knocked Jean out, and tossed her halfway across the beach.

 

[undomiel]

So you don't agree totally with Undomiel's ideas that the 'Phoenix' (bad Jean) liked Wolverine because he wanted to set her free... Free in the way he meant it, and free in the way you are using it are very different. You show that it is the 'old Jean' that is looking to be set free, by death. Where Undomiel is stating the Phoenix is looking to be set free to feel, discover, play.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! You may not be doing it intentionally, but you're kind of twisting my words here. What exactly is it that you think I'm saying?

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Cause Jean had no control at the beginning... she was all crazy from the point she lost consciousness to when she awoke... finally Logan reminded her of Scott and she realized what she had done... but she still had little control over Pheonix

Jean never had any REAL control did she? Besides for a moment of lucidness here or there, we've already established that Jean had no real control through most of the movie. But we are speculating that she had some influence, at least enough to bog up the works for Wolverine, right? And why does she have this influence in the lab and at the end for Wolverine... and not for Cyclops, who X2, supposedly clearly illustrates that Jean chooses Scott? Wouldn't you have MORE influence for the man you love than just a guy you want to have sex with?

As mentioned above...what knocked Jean/Phoenix out?

I'm not sure I follow the rest of your comment, but I really want to get to this in a moment (cause you know I've been thinking about it).

Whoa, whoa, whoa! You may not be doing it intentionally, but you're kind of twisting my words here. What exactly is it that you think I'm saying?

you were posting previously and it seemed you think Dark Jean (phoenix) was doing all of the withholding of power against Wolverine? So I was questioning Jan to see if she agreed with that.

 

[chaseter]

Did we see what we think we saw? Something more happened than just Scott going poof. Something knocked Jean out, and tossed her halfway across the beach.

That makes me wonder too Did Scott eyeblast the b**** and send them both backwards a good ways(Scott into the forest and Jean down the shore)?

 

[FaT_tONle]

Incorrect?
Are you presuming to pass judgement on my likes and dislikes?
LOL
You guys are too much. If I say that the movie didn't meet my expectations in either one of those categories that's because that's the way it is.
You think my expectations were too high? Fair enough, that's your opinion, not more. I happen to think I have a well balanced point of view and can be neutral when I have to be. At the same time I don't settle for second best, especially when talking about things I hold dear.

I said I think on my first point... but every aspect??? No f***ing way... give X3 a break man... jeez... this movie had a lot of goods... a few holes... if that's your opinion... well that's a pretty lame ass opinion in my opinion... w/e... lemme refrase that... NO F***ing way this movie failed in every F***ing aspect... but that's my opinion... but really... you honestly think that??? I'm appauled...

 

[chaseter]

Jean never had any REAL control did she? Besides for a moment of lucidness here or there, we've already established that Jean had no real control through most of the movie. But we are speculating that she had some influence, at least enough to bog up the works for Wolverine, right? And why does she have this influence in the lab and at the end for Wolverine... and not for Cyclops, who X2, supposedly clearly illustrates that Jean chooses Scott? Wouldn't you have MORE influence for the man you love than just a guy you want to have sex with?

The Phoenix side was controlling her most of the movie...you said it yourself. That side is all lust, anger, and control. So, she went after Wolverine. I believe she would have tried to kill Logan in the Medical Bay if he had not stopped their make out session. Scott cannot heal either like Logan can. So a Phoenix kiss to Scott can be a lot more fatal than one to Wolverine.

 

[undomiel]

I am changing my theory after thinking about it a little more.

I think Jean loved Logan more. She only stayed with Scott because A) she DID love him. b) he's the "nice guy" c) She felt a loyalty to him, she didn't want to drop him for some other guy.

So while she loved Scott, I think in this version of the story she loved Logan more...

Yes!!! Now you're talkin'! Allow me to encourage you to elaborate, if you don't mind.